Lord of the Flies Readalong #LordOfTheFliesReadalong discussion
Readalong Discussion (no spoiler/spoilers keeping pace with readalong)
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Mark
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Feb 24, 2022 05:19AM
At the beginning of Chapter 10, it almost seems as if Ralph is conceding to his loss of leadership when he arrives back at the vacant platform. Instead of occupying the chief’s seat, Golding writes, “Ralph sat down in the grass facing the chief’s seat and the conch” which almost signifies Ralph’s abdication. Piggy tries to rationalize their participation by claiming it was an accident. At first this surprised me that he didn’t own up to being a participant (if only as a witness who didn’t try to stop it), but then it dawned on me that it’s often said that the more intelligent the mind, the more prone it may be to mental illness; hence, the stronger the [unconscious] defense mechanisms of rationalization and denial. The mirroring of what we believe to be a civilized world has now come to a head in this microcosm: the struggle for power, the struggle for land (manifest destiny), the stealing of resources (in this case fire and spectacles), the birth of kings/dictators, and the war-like actions of people (not withstanding Ralph and Piggy). I write this as Russia presently storms into Ukraine. (Will we ever learn?)
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Catherine wrote: "Chapter 9 is rough (as a reader). Simon was definitely the best of the bunch, in addition to being the only person who knew the truth about "the beast." There was so much confusion (and animal sa..."
Catherine, I was wondering if anyone noticed the parachutist being blown out to sea as well. Golding appears to masterfully leave particular events vague so that readers can draw their own conclusions, which is always the correct answer, right? (For the first time, Golding has done it again, lol).
Ushashi wrote: "It seemed to me that they initially didn't realize that it was Simon and started based on paranoia. But they certainly recognized him before all was over and just couldn't stop like a typically fre..."Ustashi, I agree. This event seems to be the end of all civilization and kindness where savagery has unfortunately become the norm. Ralph and Piggy dancing on the outskirts shows how anyone can be sucked in to this form of mass hysteria.
Mod
Everyone was clearly at "the dance" but everyone denies being there.
Jack and his "savages" attack while the boys are sleeping, stealing Peter's glasses.
Ugh. Attacking someone while they are sleeping, completely defenseless, there is no honor in that. Also, leaving Piggy blind, that is truly cruel. Why didn't Jack just ask to borrow the glasses? Why do you think that Jack didn't take the conch? Is the conch meaningless at this point?
Lisa of Troy wrote: " Why do you think that Jack didn't take the conch? Is the conch meaningless at this point?"I think the conch represents some of the rules that Ralph tried to implement... Jack is hellbent on breaking all of Ralph's rules, this seems to be his vehicle for dominating and and gaining authority over the other boys.
(My apologies for showing up late to the party, I was derailed this month and spent the last couple of days trying to catch up... still crying over Simon)
I'm curious and nervous to see how things play out for piggy now that he no longer has possession of his glasses... I wonder how this will impact his position within the group.
Lisa of Troy wrote: "Chapter 10 -Everyone was clearly at "the dance" but everyone denies being there.
Jack and his "savages" attack while the boys are sleeping, stealing Peter's glasses.
Ugh. Attacking someone whi..."
To address your questions, Lisa, I agree with Jennifer that the conch represents the rules that were established, and perhaps order, kindness, civilization, and democracy in which everyone has a say, too. Of course Jack wants no part of this and is continuously vying for power and a dictatorship in which he is king. Perhaps boiled down to its simplest form, the conch now represents Ralph, and Jack wants no part nor reminder of that. (Plus, he’s rather lousy at blowing it, lol).
Mark wrote: "(Plus, he’s rather lousy at blowing it, lol)."LOL this is the answer!
It’s a little known fact that Ralph later moves to Key West to form his own conch shell band. 😉https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdBKU...
Lisa of Troy wrote: "Chapter 10 -Everyone was clearly at "the dance" but everyone denies being there.
Jack and his "savages" attack while the boys are sleeping, stealing Peter's glasses.
Ugh. Attacking someone "while they are sleeping, completely defenseless, there is no honor in that. Also, leaving Piggy blind, that is truly cruel. Why didn't Jack just ask to borrow the glasses? Why do you think that Jack didn't take the conch? Is the conch meaningless at this point?
The verbal dance of "we were on the outside" and "we left early" totally reflects the "it wasn't my fault" mentality of that age group. The utter horror they must feel at having witnessed and participated in the murder (don't say that word!) of a friend would break them if they didn't try to distance themselves from the act.
Jack would never ask to "borrow" the glasses. Even at the beginning, when he was more prefect than dictator, he didn't ask for things. That's not in his nature. He's a cruel bully who takes what he wants, thinking he's entitled to it.
He wants the glasses because that's the only way to start a fire, nevermind that it leaves Ralph & co. with no ability to keep a signal fire going. He doesn't want the conch because it represents democracy. Whoever has it can speak, but in Jack's tribe only Jack has the right to speak or to grant that right to others. Likewise, he can "arrest" and torture whomever he wishes.
Catherine wrote: "Lisa of Troy wrote: "Chapter 10 -Everyone was clearly at "the dance" but everyone denies being there.
Jack and his "savages" attack while the boys are sleeping, stealing Peter's glasses.
Ugh. ..."
Catherine, I wholeheartedly agree. Putin—er, I mean “Jack” is a cruel bully taking what he wants because he thinks he’s entitled to it. Borrowing is definitely against his nature. (I love how you avoided the “M” word, as did the children).
KarenK2 wrote: "Mark wrote: "It’s a little known fact that Ralph later moves to Key West to form his own conch shell band. 😉https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdBKU..."
#Sva75c > div > div > div.pxAole > div.tv..."
Karen, Im dying to see your image but it didn’t come out. (You can copy and paste it to me in my Goodreads email if you’d like.)
Mark wrote: "It’s a little known fact that Ralph later moves to Key West to form his own conch shell band. 😉
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdBKU..."
lol, do you have a little
https://youtu.be/5XcKBmdfpWs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdBKU..."
lol, do you have a little
https://youtu.be/5XcKBmdfpWs
KarenK2 wrote: "Mark wrote: "It’s a little known fact that Ralph later moves to Key West to form his own conch shell band. 😉https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdBKU..."
lol, do you have a little
https://youtu...."
ROFL -- the lead singer makes me think of the facetious "in my day, men looked like men" memes.
Chapter 11. Just the name of the chapter, Castle Rock, seems to imply that a king resides there. It’s the place back in chapter 6 where Jack wants to build a fort while others roll rocks and play (Ralph immediately squashing this notion in favor of building the signal fire). Now that Jack is king, it’s almost as if he goes out of his way to spite Ralph and do all of the things Ralph objected—living on Castle Rock, hunting and playing whenever he wants, and becoming chief in mutinous, coup d'é·tat fashion, not unlike a rebellious child defying his parents. Poor Piggy. He most certainly met an undeserved fate. And though he may not have been the prime target, no one can argue at this point that this was flat out murder in the first degree. I know we all wanted to see Ralph give Jack a John Wayne-type ass whooping, but even the bravest of men would exhibit the flight response when it comes to being shish kabobed by a savage tribe that’s established high ground.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_XRb...
Mod
RIP Peter. The reaction of Jack to Peter's death is really astonishing. Peter is killed in a very gruesome way, and Jack says, "See? See? That's what you'll get! I mean that! There isn't a tribe for you any more! The conch is gone-I'm chief!" Someone was just killed, and he is worried about establishing that he is chief.
I also find it extremely interesting that everyone who dies is reclaimed by the sea. I think that this might mean that who ever is deceased is out of sight, out of mind, or perhaps death is too easy on these boys. The children pretend that the person never existed.
What do you think that it means that every deceased person on the island is never seen again? What do you think will happen now to Ralph, Samneric, and the littleuns who originally stayed with Ralph's group? Do you think this story would have played out differently if there were a group of girls on the island?
Lisa of Troy wrote: "I also find it extremely interesting that everyone who dies is reclaimed by the sea"Everyone who has died, Simon, Piggy, The Parachutist, (the little boy with the birthmark?) are also the most innocent characters. Definitely deserving of a proper burial. Feels like there may be some sort of "Burial at sea" or even religious symbolism here.
Lisa of Troy wrote: "Chapter 11 RIP Peter. The reaction of Jack to Peter's death is really astonishing. Peter is killed in a very gruesome way, and Jack says, "See? See? That's what you'll get! I mean that! There isn..."
I somewhat view water/sea as the antithesis of fire. Whereas fire symbolizes hope and rescue, water (aside from swimming and bathing) symbolizes hopelessness, imprisonment, and loss (due to the fact that water seems to swallow up those who have perished), so I have to agree with Jennifer’s symbolic “burial at sea” theory.
Narcissistic Jack only has one thing on his mind: the absolute power that comes with being chief. And his quotes, Lisa, that you mentioned have a “now look what you made me do” ring to them, as if he’s not to blame for anyone’s death. We see this rationalization in many tyrants who claim that the victims were asking for it.
I’m not sure if there is a story that exists with all girls as the castaways on an island (surely there must be one out there), and though it’s commonly known that girls can be mean in different ways, somehow I think they would’ve been more democratic when it came to the well being of the littluns and group.
what a great question, about what the island would be like with girls. girls are more complicated than boys as admitted by Golding. I think they would have been less violent but more fractured. although they would be more successful and take care of the littuns better! follow up question what if the boys were American instead of British would that have made a difference?
I'm sure the same situation with all girls would have resulted in a much different scenario. One basic trait of the problematic boys here is what we now call 'toxic masculinity'. Since girls are in general not conditioned to establish dominance by physical prowess, I don't see them getting this violent so quickly. Their disagreements might have resulted in more non-cooperativeness, scheming and possibly some shouting matches.@Lee, I can't have a guess on if American boys would have had a different outcome. But I've been wondering along the same line, thinking if a group of Indian boys would have behaved the same. And honestly I couldn't land on any answer myself. I think that's part of the point of this story that whatever culture and civilization builds into us gets stripped off in a situation like this and people revert back to their animalistic nature.
I keep wondering if Golding's view on human nature is too harsh. He has been reported to be a sad and alcoholic person himself and that must have had an effect on his worldview. And a bit of googling led me to a nice article where a group of boys got stranded in an island for over a year, and it give me much needed hope that I need now after reading this book and looking at the world. I am putting the link to the article here if anyone wants to peruse:https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...
@Lee… I think this could just as well have been a group of American boys (I don’t think we differ all that much from our cousins across the pond). Call me an optimist, but I do think that we silly humans are more honest and more capable of doing good than we are of doing bad. No one was violent toward me today, no one stole my food, no one broke my reading glasses; in fact, a neighbor delivered a package that was accidentally sent to their address by mistake. Granted, none of us in this group are struggling for survival (not on an island, anyway) but I think kindness and goodness always defeats evil and malice in the end. There are those who think The Coral Island is too idealistic and Lord of the Flies too sardonic, perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
@Ushashi I agree with your opinion on his view of human nature. What really struck me when I read about the boys who became stranded on an island in real life was that... They played games and told each other stories to keep themselves occupied. Golding's book makes you think but it's definitely the mort negative outcome of that sort of accident. Studies have often shown that when people don't have to work to earn a living they begin to create art.Here only the young uns seem to play games, the others are so focused on their indivual coping mechanisms.
Would be interested to hear anyone else's opinions on this
Overall, a great read. But I thought the ending was a bit anticlimactic.
@Ushashi - I was going to share that true story too! They were "one for all and all for one". @Lisa of Troy - my thoughts regarding if girls were shipwrecked instead of boys - I can see some girls following Jack's path but more would have stayed in a democratic group, at least for a while longer. Whether boys or girls though, in the end, it really depends on if they see each other as one team or rivals.
Mod
The hunt is on for Ralph. However, when all seems lost, Ralph comes face to face with a naval officer. They are saved! The officer says, "We saw your smoke," and when the officer inquires who is in charge here, Ralph says that he is, and Jack says nothing.
Why do you think Jack says nothing at the end? Do you think that the ending is real or is this Ralph's imagination as he lays dying? Would Jack ever cede his new found authority? Will Jack and the others be held accountable for their actions now? What did you think of The Lord of The Flies?
@Lisa…I like that Ralph takes ownership for being in charge at the end, for good or for bad, which is the sign of a good leader. Meanwhile Jack, with spectacles in hand, steps back, signifying that he would rather let someone else take the fall. I’ll post my final thoughts next.@Ushashi… Great article—I never read this before. Thanks for sharing. It comes as a relief and, after reading such a heavy and cynical tale, restores my faith in humankind. (I needed that).
Final chapter: I earlier mentioned that the conch’s loss of color from pink to white seemed to signify the gradual loss of power, along with perhaps the tender loss of innocence regarding the boys. But it wasn’t until this chapter when Ralph stumbles upon the original head of the Lord of the Flies and Golding writes “He walked slowly into the middle of the clearing and looked steadily at the skull that gleamed as white as ever as the conch had done and seemed to jeer at him cynically” that I thought it might also be representative of the gradual loss of tender flesh to bone, perhaps symbolic of death. I thought Golding really hits it home regarding the loss of innocence and kindness in favor of adulthood and savagery when he writes, “Percival Wemys Madison sought in his head for an incantation that had faded clean away” conveying how the boy’s once rote, civilized concept of self that society programmed into him had now completely disappeared.
I found it interesting that when the naval officer first encountered Jack, he viewed him as “A little boy who wore the remains of an extraordinary black cap on his red hair and who carried the remains of a pair of spectacles at his waist…” I say this because by the end of the story, I viewed Jack as this larger than life monster who I’d be hiding from too, but the officer puts things back into perspective and reminds us that he’s just a little boy.
The description of the naval officer with his white cap and epaulettes contrasted with the black caps and war paint of the children, as did the soldiers’ revolver and sub machine gun contrast with the boys’ rocks and spears. (Or perhaps in many respects Golding wanted to show they were comparable, just on a different level).
I really enjoyed this tale, much more than when I read it back in ninth grade. If you haven’t read Stephen King’s introduction in the centenary edition, it’s worth a look. I also enjoyed reading everyone’s interpretations and analyses, opening my eyes to aspects I’ve never considered. Great readalong everyone, and thanks for allowing me the opportunity of feeling like I was back in high school again. Wishing you all good reads and great days!
Well, this book wasn’t for me, but I’m glad I reread it. I thoroughly enjoyed participating with all of you! Thank you again, Lisa 🤗 I’m ooking forward to the next read!
Eh...Too depressing. I'm looking for next month's entry! 😍See you then!
So much to unpack in these last two chapters and I missed out yesterday.Jack is a total piece of work. Lisa hit it right on the head with his "look what you made me do" attitude about Peter's death. Nothing is ever his fault and he's somehow managed to convince the other boys (except SamnEric) that Ralph is the enemy. It takes a great leader to physically force people (the twins) to join your tribe. (That was sarcasm.)
I wish there was another chapter or even a sequel about how Golding saw that shaking out with the return of civilization. Will everyone keep their mouths shut about what transpired on the island? Stiff upper lip and all that? Will these kids ever get the psychological counseling they so obviously need? (Probably not.)
Lisa suggested that the rescue at the end might be Ralph's hallucination as he's murdered by the tribe. Sweet jeebus, I hope not! That would just be too cruel, even for cynical Golding.
I've read about that group of Tongan boys stranded on an island (that Ushashi shared), which is often used to argue that Golding's view of human nature was too harsh. A couple of big differences in that situation were that the group was much smaller (six boys instead of 20-30) and they were all friends. I think that made it much easier for them to work together in a democratic manner.
A LOTF remake with girls was announced in 2017, but abandoned. Then Amazon made their own series with a similar idea, although from what I've read, they end up taking it in a very different direction. Both are discussed in this Vanity Fair article: https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/.... There's also the Showtime series Yellowjackets that has some parallels to LOTF, as discussed in this article: https://baos.pub/yellowjackets-is-a-b.... I haven't watched either, but it's interesting that both seem to be trying to prove that girls will become just as violent as boys. Girls can definitely be cruel in their own ways (see Mean Girls, which is based on the real life stories in Queen Bees and Wannabes), but I agree with Mark and Ushashi that girls would probably go about things differently.
I really enjoyed this readalong (more than Animal Farm, which was too familiar for me to really view objectively and discuss). I'm looking forward to joining for April's Of Mice and Men readalong. (I've read enough Dan Brown for a lifetime, but hope you all enjoy!)And one last thing, just found this New Yorker article with satirical excerpts from that stalemated all-girl remake of LOTF: https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily...
I watched the movie today. If I hadn't read the book the movie would have made no sense at all!
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100054/...
I can honestly say the book was better, lol.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100054/...
I can honestly say the book was better, lol.
Where is that monthly list of upcoming reads?? I know I saw it here and now I can't find it.
Mod
2022 Reading Schedule
Jan Animal Farm
Feb Lord of the Flies
Mar The Da Vinci Code
Apr Of Mice and Men
May Memoirs of a Geisha
Jun Little Women
Jul The Lovely Bones
Aug Charlotte's Web
Sep Life of Pi
Oct Dracula
Nov Gone with the Wind
Dec The Secret Garden
I’m late with adding my thoughts.I did find my recent review. I can see the attraction to the book but it honestly didn’t resonate with me. My kids were reading it in high school so I always like to read or reread what they are reading.
The Lord of the Flies by William Golding
1954
A group of boys find themselves stranded on an isolated island after a plane crashed. The time is during WWII with the idea of protecting the boys from the impending war.
The first to be introduced are Ralph and “Piggy” who was an overweight boy with glasses and asthma. His obvious health issues make him the target of ridicule and ignorance. Once this cruel nickname was shared the others were not interested in his real name. The two boys find a conch shell which Ralph blew to alert any others on the island which then becomes a symbol of power.
Next to arrive was a choir of boys led by Jack Merridew who seemed to have a regimented control over the group. The group contains various members including twins, Sam and Eric, as well as Roger and Simon.
After the initial thrill of freedom from adult supervision, it becomes obvious the group needs unification with rules and guidelines. Ralph and Jack become the leaders who decide to separate the kids into two groups. They agreed that each group would be assigned tasks which would help them survive until a rescue is made. Can people survive without discipline or leadership? What happens when a group is left to their own accord?
It oddly reminds me of a religious scenario while Moses receives the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai. While Moses left his followers for an extended period of time, the people become restless and resort to sinful indulgences in their despair. The lack of moral guidance and discipline enhanced doubt and anger which ultimately led to their demise.
In Lord of the Flies, ethical and moral issues come to the surface which has people wondering what role societal rules and institutions have on the individuals. Although this was my first reading of this classic novel, I had become aware of the various themes of violence and tragedy when a society lacks structure and proper leadership.
There are many scenes which demonstrate the savagery and evil which lurks with each person. In this case, the people are in fact “innocent” children who are cast into a very “real” adult environment.
