Lord of the Flies Readalong #LordOfTheFliesReadalong discussion
Readalong Discussion (no spoiler/spoilers keeping pace with readalong)
Mark wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Mark wrote: "To me, Chapter 5 is the most philosophical up to this point. I love when Golding writes, “He [Ralph] found himself understanding the wearisomeness of this life, where ..."
No problem, Mark :) Now "The Girl from Ipanema" will be the next ear worm lol. After re-reading a bit from Chapter 5 earlier, all the comments about fear made the quote from Frank Herbert's Dune pop into my head...so I guess today is a day of ear/mind worms for me.
No problem, Mark :) Now "The Girl from Ipanema" will be the next ear worm lol. After re-reading a bit from Chapter 5 earlier, all the comments about fear made the quote from Frank Herbert's Dune pop into my head...so I guess today is a day of ear/mind worms for me.
Michelle wrote: "Mark wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Mark wrote: "To me, Chapter 5 is the most philosophical up to this point. I love when Golding writes, “He [Ralph] found himself understanding the wearisomeness of this..."🤣
I loved Piggy's explanation of the Beast, (being the beast in humans) and I'm awed by how mature he is for his age. It's good to see Ralph finally appreciating him more. A thought on Lisa's question on ruling without being the formal leader: I think it's highly possible. It can be good or bad. An empathetic person could be a great lateral leader. But I guess more often the examples are not great. Let's say the colonial ruling where often there was a local ruler with the responsibilities, but the power resided in the hands of the foreigners. These were generally prelude to a complete takeover or an attempt at it. Chances of Jack attempting something similar feel quite high now.
I feel we are also on the verge of seeing the quintessential brain vs brawn battle. I'm really intrigued by the beast now.
To me, Chapter 6 seems to further reveal dissension in the ranks, the disintegration of rules, and the deterioration of democracy in favor of dictatorship. Jack states, “We don’t need the conch any more. We know who ought to say things. What good did Simon do speaking, or Bill, or Walter? It’s time some people knew they’ve got to keep quiet and leave deciding things to the rest of us.” Though there is a brief moment that Ralph and Jack seem to be working together (perhaps due to the threat of an outside enemy [the beast]), it is short lived. While other boys are having nightmares, Ralph’s pleasant dreams of his home life seem to exemplify how much he wants to be rescued, and he’s set on getting the signal fire started again. But most of the other boys don’t want to hear of it and would rather play, roll rocks, or build a fort on their newly conquered territory. At the close of the chapter Golding writes, “Mutinously, the boys fell silent or muttering.”
I always try my best to avoid politics, but unfortunately with everything going on in Ukraine at the moment, I believe all of the fears in Golding’s story when it comes to democracy, dictatorship, and diplomacy are just as true now as they were then.
Ushashi wrote: "I loved Piggy's explanation of the Beast, (being the beast in humans) and I'm awed by how mature he is for his age. It's good to see Ralph finally appreciating him more. A thought on Lisa's questi..."
I agree, Ustashi, the stage seems to be setting for the brains vs. brawn showdown.
With chapter six done we are officially halfway through! The rivalry between Ralph and Jack is about to get nasty... Also I feel so sorry for Piggy because they just treat him horribly :(
Mod
I also gave some additional thought to the mention of the color pink in this book: white plus red.
Ralph has no idea who's on the island or how many. tried to have Peter count and write down the name. another example of Ralph bad leadership but he is trying.
Lisa of Troy wrote: "Another example of the fire going out when they had the highest likelihood of being rescued. I also find it very interesting to discover that Jack lied. He said earlier that he had gone all over th..."Great point about how he references a Walter but we haven't heard of a Walter up to this point. I thought I just lost track of characters, HA!
The rivalry between Ralph and Jack seems to be reaching a pinnacle, where you dislike Jack a little more and Ralph a little less as we progress.
I feel quite terribly for Peter, he really gets it from so many angles.
I don't think the book ever gives Piggie's real name as Peter. I read a hypothesis somewhere that his name is Peter because of "The Coral Island" book where the 3 main characters are Ralph, Peterkin, and Jack. If it's in the book, could you let me know what chapter? Thanks!
Great thoughts and points from everyone!
Random comments from me - This chapter also seemed to give a bit more insight into the struggles and turmoil Ralph is dealing with in his mind in regards to their situation and maybe to the leadership position as well. Golding writes “Ralph walked in the rear, thankful to have escaped responsibility for a time.” Also, “Ralph dismissed Simon and returned to his personal hell.” When he first ventures in to find the beast, it describes him as being “surrounded on all sides by chasms of empty air,” while that is describing the environment maybe it is also close to what he feels physically and emotionally at times. I also really loved the wording Golding used to describe the swell of water among the rocks below the cliffs “like the breathing of some stupendous creature.” My favorite lines from the chapter follow after that - “Then the sleeping leviathan breathed out, the waters rose, the weed streamed, and the water boiled over the table rock with a roar. There was no sense of the passage of waves, only this minute-long fall and rise and fall.”
Random comments from me - This chapter also seemed to give a bit more insight into the struggles and turmoil Ralph is dealing with in his mind in regards to their situation and maybe to the leadership position as well. Golding writes “Ralph walked in the rear, thankful to have escaped responsibility for a time.” Also, “Ralph dismissed Simon and returned to his personal hell.” When he first ventures in to find the beast, it describes him as being “surrounded on all sides by chasms of empty air,” while that is describing the environment maybe it is also close to what he feels physically and emotionally at times. I also really loved the wording Golding used to describe the swell of water among the rocks below the cliffs “like the breathing of some stupendous creature.” My favorite lines from the chapter follow after that - “Then the sleeping leviathan breathed out, the waters rose, the weed streamed, and the water boiled over the table rock with a roar. There was no sense of the passage of waves, only this minute-long fall and rise and fall.”
J wrote: "I don't think the book ever gives Piggie's real name as Peter. I read a hypothesis somewhere that his name is Peter because of "The Coral Island" book where the 3 main characters are Ralph, Peterki..."I started calling him Peter because of that Coral Island parallel. (It's a ways back in the conversation.) I didn't like referring to him by a nickname he hates (or by descriptions of him as "the heavy boy," etc.)
Michelle wrote: "Great thoughts and points from everyone! Random comments from me - This chapter also seemed to give a bit more insight into the struggles and turmoil Ralph is dealing with in his mind in regards ..."
Michelle, I also thought Golding’s imagery of the water breathing, rising, and roaring was masterful as well (almost as if the sea were the beast itself). It’s funny how we both use quotes as footnotes to support our interpretations (something that must be ingrained in us from high school and college research papers, lol). I also felt it revealed the most about Ralph. The dream he had showed he led a pretty privileged home life (who wouldn’t want to be rescued when you have servants bringing you tea? lol).
Lisa of Troy wrote: "Another example of the fire going out when they had the highest likelihood of being rescued. I also find it very interesting to discover that Jack lied. He said earlier that he had gone all over th..."Lisa, I love the “white plus red” interpretation you mentioned (I never looked at it this way).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9SAH...
Reading “Lord of the Flies” is just like being in high school again, except I’m not getting beat up.
Mod
I guess Jack isn't so special because Ralph can hunt too. Jack is once again admitting that he hasn't actually been all over the island.
This chapter was really weird to me. The boys are going to look for the beast while darkness is setting in. This is really creepy to me. Once when I was walking in the forest, the sun starts to set much faster than you would expect. Without the ambient light of the city, it gets dark and scary. So dark that you can't even see the hand in front of your face. When I got back to my car with my friend, we locked the doors and let out a scream. And we were 18. Yeah.......:)
Yet these children are supposed to get a good look at the beast? Perhaps this is a metaphor that we don't see clearly when we are looking at our greatest fears? Our lives would be enhanced if we confronted our greatest fears with a clear head?
Chapter 7 seemed to be revealing and foreshadowing at the same time. A little after the mock hunt in which Robert played the role of the pig, Golding writes, “Then they tried to hurry along the rocks and Robert cut his knee quite badly and they had to recognize that this path must be taken slowly if they were to be safe.” I could probably look too closely at the yellow pages of a phone book (if one still exists) and start to see symbolism, metaphor, and deep meaning, but perhaps Golding was alluding to being careful with the impromptu games they were playing so things don’t get too carried away. It is mentioned that this is the first time Ralph notices Jack hesitating (due to his fear of the monster), which has Jack somewhat flinching for the first time (albeit a verbal flinch). Having been a schoolboy once myself, Golding does an incredible job with the dialogue exchanges between Ralph and Jack; each quote almost being a one-upsmanship between the two when it comes to who’s braver (hence more qualified to lead). Girls, you know how we boys can be with the whole alpha male thing (I write as I try to mansplain, lol).
Lisa of Troy wrote: "Chapter 7 I guess Jack isn't so special because Ralph can hunt too. Jack is once again admitting that he hasn't actually been all over the island.
This chapter was really weird to me. The boys a..."
I thought that was a bit strange too. (Beast slaying should only be delegated to daylight hours). It’s like the person who hears there’s a killer on the loose and says, “I think I’ll take a shower.”
Thanks Catherine! I'm sorry I missed your earlier post but agree with your take on Peter. It is incredibly sad that no boy on the island cares enough to use his real name, especially Simon or Ralph.Mark Wheats and Lisa of Troy - I agree with you on the awful timing to search for the beast. And Ralph and Jack egging each other on. Is Ralph becoming more like Jack or is there a part of him struggling not to become like him?
@Lisa of Troy - I feel the same way about this chapter feeling a bit weird as well. Quite a few raised eyebrows along the way and wishing we could just pull them aside, have them take a breath and then think things through again. I guess excitement can get the best of us all at certain times. I really liked the link to the metaphor that you mentioned as well. And I agree with Mark on your previous comment with the red and white with the pink symbolism. Mark used De Niro to agree with you, and I just can't top that :) We all need a bit of De Niro in our lives today.
@Mark - Great quotes for today's chapter! Lol yep, I think that habit is well ingrained in us from those years. It is fun to be able to continue that marginalia and annotation approach, but now more for my personal enjoyment. Still makes it fun to get new post-it flags or colored highlighters too :) I am forever a kid with those! I will do my best to chill a bit with the quotes...after this post 🤣
@J: Great question in regards to Ralph becoming more like Jack or struggling not to become like him, I wonder the same thing.
Branching off of what J was awesome at bringing up, I think we do see Ralph struggling with some actions/reactions that morally he may have originally felt differently about at the start of the book. There was a point at the beginning of the chapter when he noticed that he had been biting his nails and he couldn't remember "when he had restarted this habit nor any time when he had indulged it." Then later in the chapter when the boys, including Ralph, got a bit carried away with the acting out of the pig hunt scene in which Robert was playing the pig, which became a bit of a frenzy. Ralph was "carried away by a sudden thick excitement" and his state was described in the line "the desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering." He also described how different each side of the island felt, with the side they were currently on where "one was clamped down, one was helpless, one was condemned...." And like J also mentioned, Ralph and Jack are really egging each on. They now seem very aware of what buttons to push, what antagonizes the other one.
Last random comment for today, sorry everyone. There was wording in a line that caught me off guard a bit, but it does seem to fit quite well: "...and the darkness and desperate enterprise gave the night a kind of dentist's chair unreality." That link to a dentist's chair made me stop and go back to reread it. Interesting way to describe it, and makes me think back to how I felt about the dentist's chair at that age.
@Mark - Great quotes for today's chapter! Lol yep, I think that habit is well ingrained in us from those years. It is fun to be able to continue that marginalia and annotation approach, but now more for my personal enjoyment. Still makes it fun to get new post-it flags or colored highlighters too :) I am forever a kid with those! I will do my best to chill a bit with the quotes...after this post 🤣
@J: Great question in regards to Ralph becoming more like Jack or struggling not to become like him, I wonder the same thing.
Branching off of what J was awesome at bringing up, I think we do see Ralph struggling with some actions/reactions that morally he may have originally felt differently about at the start of the book. There was a point at the beginning of the chapter when he noticed that he had been biting his nails and he couldn't remember "when he had restarted this habit nor any time when he had indulged it." Then later in the chapter when the boys, including Ralph, got a bit carried away with the acting out of the pig hunt scene in which Robert was playing the pig, which became a bit of a frenzy. Ralph was "carried away by a sudden thick excitement" and his state was described in the line "the desire to squeeze and hurt was over-mastering." He also described how different each side of the island felt, with the side they were currently on where "one was clamped down, one was helpless, one was condemned...." And like J also mentioned, Ralph and Jack are really egging each on. They now seem very aware of what buttons to push, what antagonizes the other one.
Last random comment for today, sorry everyone. There was wording in a line that caught me off guard a bit, but it does seem to fit quite well: "...and the darkness and desperate enterprise gave the night a kind of dentist's chair unreality." That link to a dentist's chair made me stop and go back to reread it. Interesting way to describe it, and makes me think back to how I felt about the dentist's chair at that age.
Mark said: I thought that was a bit strange too. (Beast slaying should only be delegated to daylight hours). It’s like the person who hears there’s a killer on the loose and says, “I think I’ll take a shower.”Right?!?! This chapter definitely had a bit of a horror vibe. And I agree with all of you who said this chapter feels weird. Re-enacting the pig encounter at Robert's expense, the proposed ritual/ceremonial re-enactment with Jack proposing (whether he was "joking" or not) to use a littlun as the pig, Jack's insistence on hunting the monster in the dark. So many bad ideas at once! I'm also worried about Simon trekking across the island by himself.
Catherine wrote: "Mark said: I thought that was a bit strange too. (Beast slaying should only be delegated to daylight hours). It’s like the person who hears there’s a killer on the loose and says, “I think I’ll tak..."
So true, Catherine! Oh gosh, that’s right, I had forgotten about how they didn’t end up sending anyone else with Simon. Eek 😬!
So true, Catherine! Oh gosh, that’s right, I had forgotten about how they didn’t end up sending anyone else with Simon. Eek 😬!
I agree with all that this chapter felt very horror-esque. However, towards the beginning of the chapter, I couldn't help but notice how much Ralph appears to have grown over the course of the book. He sounds so grown-up (and morose):
" Wave after wave, Ralph followed the rise and fall until something of the remoteness of the sea numbed his brain. Then gradually, the almost infinite size of this water forced itself on his attention. This was the divider, the barrier..... but here, faced by the brute obtuseness of the ocean, the miles of division, one was clamped down, one was helpless, one was condemned, one was--"
It's like he's aged years, however, we've seen this in Ralph, his extreme desire to want to go home and lamenting over his life. He's the only character who really seems to have a desire to leave the island.
I agree with all of you. This chapter was definitely creepy. I kept imagining how it will look on screen and it is perfect horror movie stuff.I thought Ralph's reaction to hitting the pig was interesting. On the surface, it's more of a child-like joy of achieving something and asking for validation. But I think it was more of a confidence booster for him, proving himself worthy of the leadership and possibly not feeling threatened by Jack.
And how Jack didn't answer when Ralph clearly asked him why he hates him is such a typical adult response. Hating someone is so common, but very few of us would actually own up to it when confronted.
@Mark, I was shocked by the one-upsmanship between Ralph and Jack. I have been older teenagers doing it. But with kids this young I wouldn't have expected ego to play a bigger role than fear.
@J: I agree, a definite struggle and egging on occurring between Biden and Putin—er…um, I mean, between “Ralph and Jack.” (Okay, I’ll shut up now with the political references). Ralph seems to want his due credit for striking the pig, mostly to gain “cred” with the hunters. What I love about this book is all of those underlying tones and nuances we can all remember from our childhoods. There’s no lengthy dialogues (as there weren’t when we spoke as kids); the main aspects occur behind the dialogue. This is why they never made a film version that ever matched my expectations. The dialogue for a screenplay just isn’t there.@Michelle: I love your quotes—please never stop! (I’m not going to, so be forewarned, lol). I’m sure our former teachers would be proud of the way we support our thesis for each chapter. And there’s nothing wrong with forever being a kid; it keeps us young (as long as we avoid those mock pig hunts).
@Catherine: I thought that was mean of Jack to want to use a littlun as a pig too (whether joking or not). I think we all remember these older kids when we were that age (and those bullies always seemed to get their comeuppance sooner or later). Simon should’ve used the buddy system and not ventured back alone (he seems to be the only one who doesn’t believe in the beast).
@Brooke: Ralph really does seem to be the only one who wants to be rescued. (Are they really having THAT much fun?). I can see for a few days maybe, or perhaps a week, but they’ve been there for a quite sometime. (Even after the greatest island vacation with superb amenities, I’m ready for home at some point).
@Ushashi: so true…fear always tends to win out over ego (that’s what Maslow’s hierarchy of needs states anyway). The protagonist and antagonist seem to be taking the “I double dog dare ya” approach to see who backs down first.
I am enjoying reading this (extra) commentary! 🤓
Mod
Things have officially gone off the rails. Jack finally makes his power play, and it goes horribly wrong. I find it so interesting that Jack keeps saying, "Who thinks Ralph oughtn't to be chief?" When no one raises their hand, he still repeats about Ralph not being chief. Why didn't he ask, "Hey, who thinks I should be chief?"
Yet, despite no one raising their hands, the big ones sneak off to join Jack. Why didn't they raise their hands? Did they secretly want Jack, the evil character, but they were ashamed to say so publicly? Did they think that the morally acceptable response was to go along with Ralph but really they just want to have fun with Jack?
Then, we have the hunt. Jack selects a nursing mother as his target. Without the mother, the piglets will all die. This is very short sighted on Jack's behalf. However, the nursing mother is easy prey. Instead of putting her out of her misery quickly, the boys hunt her for hours until finally she falls down, struck down by the heat. It was almost as if the boys were enjoying the cruelty and misery of this poor animal.
The boys leave an offering to the beast. This I find extremely strange, because my understanding is that you don't leave out food for animals if you don't want them to become a problem. We are instructed to make sure all of our trash and food waste to be properly stored to prevent animal pests.
Do you think that Simon will be alright or is this the last of him?
Chapter 8… The color pink comes into play again. Not unlike the conch turning from pink to white, the once pinkish sky and environment is turning white as well. Golding writes, “The sky, as if in sympathy with the great changes among them, was different today and so misty that in some places the hot air seemed white.” Perhaps this symbolizes the loss of power within their own political environment, the loss of Jack and the other hunters (who decide to officially secede from their union), and the diminishing power that Ralph has as chief. When Jack and others break away, they come across “…the largest sow of the lot. She was black and pink; and the great bladder of her belly was fringed with a row of piglets that slept or burrowed and squeaked.” I couldn’t help but think back to the very first chapter when the choir is introduced to us for the first time, and Golding states “Their bodies, from throat to ankle, were hidden by black cloaks which bore a long silver cross on the left breast and each neck was finished off with a ham-bone frill.”
The title of the story is mentioned for the first time in this chapter, and The Lord of the Flies has the longest soliloquy up to this point via Simon’s vision. Whether or not you view the sow’s head as a representation of the devil, the comparison of the choirs’ frilled cloaks with crosses and the black sow’s fringe of piglets should not be dismissed.
Savagery abounds with the raid on the camp and fire, and Jack continues his campaign to recruit more members by offering a feast. (After all, an army marches on its stomach, right?)
Lisa of Troy wrote: "Chapter 8 Things have officially gone off the rails. Jack finally makes his power play, and it goes horribly wrong. I find it so interesting that Jack keeps saying, "Who thinks Ralph oughtn't to ..."
Lisa, I caught that too about how Jack phrases his chieftain question. Perhaps it’s a schoolboy’s attempt at indirectly saving face and skirting rejection. Drawing from my personal experiences, there are those friends that can’t be beat when it comes to having fun, but I wouldn’t necessarily want them running things (or perhaps even working with me, lol). Since I can recall Simon’s plight from when I was back in 9th grade, please allow me to defer your last question to the rest of the group. :::passing the conch:::
Lisa of Troy wrote: "Chapter 8 Things have officially gone off the rails. Jack finally makes his power play, and it goes horribly wrong. I find it so interesting that Jack keeps saying, "Who thinks Ralph oughtn't to be chief?" When no one raises their hand, he still repeats about Ralph not being chief. Why didn't he ask, "Hey, who thinks I should be chief?"
Yet, despite no one raising their hands, the big ones sneak off to join Jack. Why didn't they raise their hands? Did they secretly want Jack, the evil character, but they were ashamed to say so publicly? Did they think that the morally acceptable response was to go along with Ralph but really they just want to have fun with Jack?"
Jack, like most dictators, is secretly insecure, so he blusters and avoids asking direct questions if he might not like the answer. It was a blow to his ego that no one voted to unseat Ralph. If they'd directly rejected him as a leader (at least in front of the assembly), that would have broken him. (Or maybe he would have insisted that Ralph somehow cheated.)
As for the motivation of the older boys, I think they know that Ralph is the wiser choice, but they want to have fun, to be wild, to kill things. Jack is the glamourous choice here.
This scene was frighteningly hilarious:
"Tonight we're having a feast. We've killed a pig and we've got meat. You can come and eat with us if you like."
...Jack was waiting for something. He whispered urgently to the others.
"Go on--now!"
The two savages murmered. Jack spoke sharply.
"Go on!"
The two savages looked at each other, raised their spears together and spoke in time.
"The Chief has spoken."
Then the three of them turned and trotted away.
image:
Catherine wrote: "Lisa of Troy wrote: "Chapter 8 Things have officially gone off the rails. Jack finally makes his power play, and it goes horribly wrong. I find it so interesting that Jack keeps saying, "Who thin..."
Lol, Catherine! I thought that sounded vaguely familiar.
Catherine wrote: "Lisa of Troy wrote: "Chapter 8
Things have officially gone off the rails. Jack finally makes his power play, and it goes horribly wrong. I find it so interesting that Jack keeps saying, "Who thin..."
Love this, Catherine! :) Wonder what color buffs and what tribe names there would be for these two groups now.....guessing red and white might come into play, and maybe Jack would have his team just called "Jack's Hunters" since he seems a bit focused on referring to them as his and so does everyone else? And instead of the survivor theme song, they would have the hot dog song that Mark found earlier.
There also still seems to be a lot of focus on Peter/Piggy wiping off the remaining part of his glasses, maybe happening before he offers some insights to Ralph and showing that he is "seeing clearly" or seeing things in a way that isn't clouded in ways that it might be for others? How he has the "intellectual daring" to suggest certain things, like moving the fire, in which Golding writes "the greatest ideas are the simplest." Again, maybe this is just me over-interpreting/misinterpreting things. The vision aspect also seemed to come up with Simon's vision of the sow's head and Golding writes "the half-shut eyes were dim with the infinite cynicism of adult life. They assured Simon that everything was bad business."
Great points, Mark. I always like to see the moments come up that tie in the title too. I really like how you brought up the description of the sow linking back to the introductions in the first chapter, I had not caught onto that when I was reading this chapter.
Interesting question that Lisa brought up on how we think things will play out with Simon as well. His back and forth with the Lord of the Flies brings some heavy dialogue and mindset, with Simon being inside the mouth. A bit of mystery with how the Lord of the Flies says "fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill." Also when Simon says "he knew that one of his times was coming on."
Things have officially gone off the rails. Jack finally makes his power play, and it goes horribly wrong. I find it so interesting that Jack keeps saying, "Who thin..."
Love this, Catherine! :) Wonder what color buffs and what tribe names there would be for these two groups now.....guessing red and white might come into play, and maybe Jack would have his team just called "Jack's Hunters" since he seems a bit focused on referring to them as his and so does everyone else? And instead of the survivor theme song, they would have the hot dog song that Mark found earlier.
There also still seems to be a lot of focus on Peter/Piggy wiping off the remaining part of his glasses, maybe happening before he offers some insights to Ralph and showing that he is "seeing clearly" or seeing things in a way that isn't clouded in ways that it might be for others? How he has the "intellectual daring" to suggest certain things, like moving the fire, in which Golding writes "the greatest ideas are the simplest." Again, maybe this is just me over-interpreting/misinterpreting things. The vision aspect also seemed to come up with Simon's vision of the sow's head and Golding writes "the half-shut eyes were dim with the infinite cynicism of adult life. They assured Simon that everything was bad business."
Great points, Mark. I always like to see the moments come up that tie in the title too. I really like how you brought up the description of the sow linking back to the introductions in the first chapter, I had not caught onto that when I was reading this chapter.
Interesting question that Lisa brought up on how we think things will play out with Simon as well. His back and forth with the Lord of the Flies brings some heavy dialogue and mindset, with Simon being inside the mouth. A bit of mystery with how the Lord of the Flies says "fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill." Also when Simon says "he knew that one of his times was coming on."
I have not read this book before, so no spoilers!!
Just a guess ...
Will it be just as simple as Simon losing his mind, and/or his personality split, and he is the beast ?
Just a guess ...
Will it be just as simple as Simon losing his mind, and/or his personality split, and he is the beast ?
Michelle wrote: "Also when Simon says "he knew that one of his times was coming on."I didn't catch this when I read it, but that could be referring to his hallucinations and/or losing consciousness. Probably both have happened before.
Michelle, I noticed that too with the cleansing of the specs. I interpreted the “fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill” quote as being another reference to the dormant beast that lurks within us all. I find it interesting that the parachutist (a man) is referred to as a “Beast,” yet the sow’s head on a stick, which [arguably] can be interpreted as the devil, is referred to as a “Lord.” This seems a bit backwards since the devil is usually referred to as a beast and a man as a lord.KarenK2…I like your observations about Simon. There are so many different ways this story could go at this point. And my apologies if I’ve unconsciously gone a bit overboard with some of my notes. Having read this book back in high school, I’m trying my best to hold back the reigns.
So many fascinating comments! I am enjoying this book so much more this time thanks to all of you.This chapter feels like their last chance to stop the train they've set in motion, but like all good horror stories, they just..... don't.
Mod
RIP Simon. I find it very interesting that the one person who knows the truth about the beast dies. Simon was the one who helped the young kids getting the difficult to reach fruit. He was the one who shared his meat with Peter. He was the one who was actually brave and went up to see the beast alone. Yet, not one person stood up for him or defended him.
Jack finally asks, "Who will join my tribe?" Now, he is getting the positive affirmation that has eluded him up until this point. Jack says, "Do our dance! Come on! Dance!" This is actually where the boys pretend to kill the pig. The word choice is very interesting. Why doesn't Jack say, "Let's play kill the pig"? Perhaps because it isn't play to Jack? Why do all of the boys join in? They know that one boy has been hurt in this "dance" before.
Jack also keeps asking, "Has everyone eaten as much as they want?" Why does he keep asking that? I know that I definitely have had my fill of Jack. :)
KarenK2 wrote: "Will it be just as simple as Simon losing his mind, and/or his personality split, and he is the beast ?"
And ... that theory bites the dust, lol.
And ... that theory bites the dust, lol.
The first couple sentences of chapter 9 seem to foretell the event that was about to unfold. Golding writes, “…[R]evolving masses of gas piled up the static until the air was ready to explode.” A View to a Death, as the titled chapter denotes, is one of frenzied savagery, claiming the life of Simon at the close as his “…dead body moved out toward the open sea.” Those hunting games they were playing finally crossed over and meshed with the realm of reality (whether conscious or unconsciously). It doesn’t entirely state whether or not any of the tribal members actually knew it was Simon, vaguely leaving this up to the reader’s own thoughts. The heavy rain and darkness can partly be blamed for the mistaken identity of the beast. This seems to exemplify the mob mentality that can occur during a moment of frenzied paranoia.
Lisa of Troy wrote: "Chapter 9 RIP Simon. I find it very interesting that the one person who knows the truth about the beast dies. Simon was the one who helped the young kids getting the difficult to reach fruit. He ..."
Lisa, it’s interesting why no one stood up for Simon. Harking back to my middle school years, children seldom seemed to stick up for those kids who were timid, teased, and tormented, perhaps for the reason that they too might be lumped together with them and therefore have to endure similar treatment. Looking and thinking back on it, there seemed to be a “stay below the radar” feel to those middle school years. If we could all magically be beamed back to that time, I wonder if we would do things differently.
KarenK2 wrote: "KarenK2 wrote: "Will it be just as simple as Simon losing his mind, and/or his personality split, and he is the beast ?"And ... that theory bites the dust, lol."
KarenK2, I probably had similar theories too when I first read the story. When it comes to books and movies, I start to look at things in a “whodunnit” sense, and my conspiracy theories run wild. It’s a sign that you have a good imagination. Just to show how naive the ninth grade me was, I recall believing that Simon’s vision was actually happening; that the Lord of the Flies head was really speaking from atop the stick (and the teacher had to correct me in front of the class to the delight of my classmates laughter, lol).
I can relate, Mark. 7th grade English .....
Lisa of Troy wrote: "Chapter 9 RIP Simon. I find it very interesting that the one person who knows the truth about the beast dies. Simon was the one who helped the young kids getting the difficult to reach fruit. He ..."
yikes simon was hands down my favourite character! if only he had lived to tell the rest about the "beast", what a shame :(
It is definitely not 'play' for jack, but i don't think it is for the other kids either! Even Ralph who is usually the "sensible" one seems to lose his mind when chanting and hunting.
KarenK2 wrote: "I can relate, Mark. 7th grade English ....."
Lol, KarenK2! It’s an awful feeling at the moment, but it’s funny how the passage of time can change your outlook. I look back on the majority of embarrassing moments from my youth and find them hilarious now. (Even to the point of retelling the stories).
Lucía ✨ wrote: "Lisa of Troy wrote: "Chapter 9 RIP Simon. I find it very interesting that the one person who knows the truth about the beast dies. Simon was the one who helped the young kids getting the difficul..."
Lucia, Simon was my fave too. Strange how we don’t really respect those really nice, good-natured kids at that age (who are often the victims of ridicule) but how much we respect them when we’re older. I’ve come across a few “Jacks” in my time (and fortunately never wanted to partake in any of their “meats.”).
Mark wrote: "To me, Chapter 5 is the most philosophical up to this point. I love when Golding writes, “He [Ralph] found himself understanding the wearisomeness of this life, where every path was an improvisatio..."Absolutely! Humans eventually revert to an animalistic behavior, there's a beast in all of us....and we may be the worst beast there is.
Brindi Michele wrote: "Mark wrote: "To me, Chapter 5 is the most philosophical up to this point. I love when Golding writes, “He [Ralph] found himself understanding the wearisomeness of this life, where every path was an..."Brandi, yes, sad but true.
Chapter 9 is rough (as a reader). Simon was definitely the best of the bunch, in addition to being the only person who knew the truth about "the beast." There was so much confusion (and animal savagery) on the beach that it's hard to tell what really happened. Did some of the boys realize it was Simon? If so, were they too caught up in the moment to stop or did they just not care? Did anyone see the actual "beast" (paratrooper) blow out to sea?
It seemed to me that they initially didn't realize that it was Simon and started based on paranoia. But they certainly recognized him before all was over and just couldn't stop like a typically frenzied mob. It was a horrible scene.I think it can be taken as a mark of the end of all civilized and kind things on the island. Now it's going to be the rule of savagery and fear.
Michelle, btw, sorry for ear worming you. I’ve found that the best way to rid yourself of any ear worm is to hum “The Girl from Ipanema.” (But, of course, then you’ll have that tune in your head).
For some strange reason I think the Armour Hotdog jingle boils “Lord of the Flies” down to its most basic elements:
“Fat kids, skinny kids, kids who climb on rocks,
Tough kids, sissy kids, even kids who blow on conchs…”