Catholic Thought discussion
City of God, St. Augustine
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Book XI
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Mod
Manny, I appreciate your concise synopsis of this long Book XI—it took me a good hour and a half to go through it again. The “gap” is the lack in Genesis of mention how and when God created the angels and how and when Lucifer and his band turned in their pride against their Creator and were sent to hell.While St. Augustine questions why “should the angels be omitted, as if they were not among the works of God, from which on the seventh day He rested?” he goes to references to angels in other parts of the Scripture, Psalm 148, and Job. St. Augustine connects the creation of the angels to God’s creation of light. Lucifer (“light-bringing”) somewhat strengthens that argument for me but only some.
As to why and when some of the angels turned in their pride against God and He cast them to hell was no doubt before time began with the creation of the world that we know, the earth and us. It is impossible to imagine what went on before time began. Can we even ask whether Lucifer’s response to God’s creation was immediate? I think St. Augustine will revisit these issues in later books.
Mod
Manny asked, " But I also thought angels do not have free will, so how did the bad angels turn against God? "I remember from one of our Bible studies of angels and demons several years ago that angels were given perfect knowledge along with free will, which means that if Lucifer and company had perfect knowledge of who God Is (that He IS) and knowledge of his goodness and love, which perfect knowledge would include, and still let pride and jealously lead him into rivalry and rebellion with the creator who encompasses all being, his decisions are irrevocable, unforgivable (although the decision implies an automatic refusal of forgiveness and permanent lack of remorse). At least that was my understanding of Lucifer's rebellion and subsequent leadership of a separate realm of evil and sin and darkness to rival the goodness of God's love and light and heaven.
Mod
https://www.catholic.com/qa/do-angels...
It seems complicated. First this:
"When the angels made their initial choice to love and serve the Lord or not, they perfectly saw—according to their angelic natures—the irrevocably eternal consequences of their actions. That is, they were given the power by God to make a clear and irrevocable choice to love and serve him or not. Some chose well, while others chose very badly."
But then this:
"Does this mean that the angels in heaven are not truly free, given that they cannot turn away from God after their initial, irrevocable decision? To the contrary, they are perfectly free. Again, they clearly saw the irrevocably eternal nature of their decision to love and serve God, and they made that good choice. And their choice has redounded to their everlasting joy."
So as I read it they had an initial choice but once that choice was made it was irreversible. But is that really free will? I don't get that.
Free will with the perfect knowledge of what the consequences of your choices will be? Also knowing that the choice is irrevocable? I think that's definitely free will. If you choose that course, you are also freely choosing the consequences, I should think.
Mod
Yes, it's free will for that one choice, but if your nature is fixed after that, is it free will afterward? If good angels can never make a bad choice after they have chosen good and bad angels can never make a good choice after they have chosen bad, is that free will? And why is there no redemption for angels?
Manny wrote: "Yes, it's free will for that one choice, but if your nature is fixed after that, is it free will afterward? If good angels can never make a bad choice after they have chosen good and bad angels can never make a good choice after they have chosen bad, is that free will? And why is there no redemption for angels?"I think I learned that they received such thorough and complete infused knowledge instantaneously, that they had all the information necessary, available to them; to make a fully informed choice. They do not "learn" like us, as they are outside of time. So where we may decide something, and then learn more fully another aspect of the situation, and want to 'change our mind'; angels have no need for such because they understood it fully. It seems to get more to our passions, or 'where our heart is' (will), more than knowledge or intellect. Knowing fully, one can still choose to not love and serve God (as Lucifer apparently so infamously chose not to do)...
Mod
Very interesting Susan. Thank you. I w ill have to remember that.
Subchapters
- Faith, the Mediator, and the Authority of Scripture
- Creation, Time, and the Immutability of God
- The Days of Creation and the Forms of Knowledge
- The Creation of the Angels
- The Divine Simplicity
- The Angelic Fall
- The Case of the Devil
- The Separation of the Holy Angels from the Fallen Angels
- The Goodness of God and the Goodness of Creation
- Traces of the Trinity in Creation
- The Holy Angels and Their Knowledge
- Alternative Views of the Creation of the Angels
- Conclusion
Having rejected the Roman pagan world, its world view, and its criticism of Christianity in Books I-X. Augustine starts Part 2 with the true origins of the two cities, the City of Man and the City of God. Book XI is a reflection on the creation story of Genesis, on the creation and nature of angels, and ultimately what it says about God. A significant part of Book XI is on speculation of the creation of angels, on which Genesis is completely silent. Augustine speculates that the angels were created on the first day as part of the creation of light. But some angels turned away from the illumination of the creation and turned to darkness, and thus the fall of the bad angels. It is emphasized that God did not create the evil in the bad angels but it was they who turned to the darkness.