Ersatz TLS discussion
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Weekly TLS
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What are we reading? 19th January 2022
Gpfr wrote: "Andy wrote: " The Portico Prize - I was looking for an archive of past winners, but couldn’t find it. ..."Here are the winners 1985 - 2015:
https://www.theportico.org.uk/portico......"
Thanks again GPFR….
The awards are streamed live online tonight at 7:30 pm.
It’s a free sign up through Eventbrite for anyone interested…
(Link on the Portico website)
"scarletnoir wrote: suspicion is that, depending on the definition used, other countries will be able to go back well beyond 1277...Certainly, when the invading power treats the local peasants with contempt (we can look at recent references to Wales by Tory MPs and the Tory press) then the feeling of 'being a colony/colonialised' persists."
This sort of thing, I think, is as old as time itself. The Greeks depended on slaves, the Romans depended on slaves. Even with the Norman invasion of Anglo Saxon England - great numbers of the nobles were killed, dispossessed or forced into marriage with their conquerors. Meanwhile feudalism ensured that the peasant weren't that much better off than slaves. So colonisation. It was effectively the Normans and their direct descendants who conquered Wales, and failed in Scotland.
Interesting after all that, when French and Latin were the official languages for probably 2-300 years that English eventually won out.
Georg wrote: "On pronounciation:I really didn't understand the problem with "awry" [ooree]. Now I've listened to the pronounciation. Same with epitome....
I am sure I will always read/write them with the wron..."
giveusaclue wrote: "FrancesBurgundy wrote: "Fuzzywuzz wrote: "For years, in my head, I read the word 'awry' as 'oree' .."
Me too Fuzz. I thought it came from 'awe'. I also thought 'misled' was the past tense of 'misl..."
On words in a different direction. How about a favorite word?
Mine is chary. I think of it as a word picture.
Second favorite is whilst because it is so British.
scarletnoir wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "This series is set in Brittany which appears to be a country of its own! I think the author enjoys writing about Brittany as much as he likes writing the mystery."The author i..."
The books tend to be as much description as story, but when you don't know a place that may be less irritating than if you do!
@Andy, I don't think you're reading the Wordle thread here, but there've been a few posts on Absurdle that you might want to look at. I've been trying to explain it in several posts, but maybe you'll be better at it than me! (Btw, I was asking there if you've ever managed to crack the 4 minimum?)
Georg wrote: "On pronounciation: It took me a while to digest choir, yacht and vineyard. Let alone some geographical names..."
I'm not surprised Georg. Regarding epitome it took a question of a colleague to be sure it was pronounced epitomee! The word brings back memories of working on the securities desk. Piles of deeds would come in for unregistered land and I would pray for them to include and "Epitome of Title" which I could just copy rather than having to go through every single document and typing up a new list. The oldest document I ever found was a letter included in a set of deeds, hand-written of course and dated 1796!
Regarding pronunciation of other words, when studying Italian (pronuniation of which is pretty straightforward) at evening classes, I remember our teacher saying to us "you have Leicester, Louughborough, rough, cough,bough, and you complain about Italian pronunciation!"
Hushpuppy wrote: "Re "Bannalec", I had seen this a few months back, which made me highly suspicious of the authenticity of it all... (A bit like the **!% Americanised view of Paris and St-Malo, and indeed of French and German characters, in All The Light We Cannot See.)"Yes indeed, though I felt a little hypocritical on reflection, as I very much enjoyed Michael Dibdin's Italy-based 'Zen' series - I'm not really familiar with Italy - would an Italian have cringed at those books?
I don't know.
The same might be said about my affection for the excellent Bernie Gunther series by Philip Kerr, which recounts the travails of 'honest cop' Bernie in a world controlled by the Nazis... a German reader might cringe, though I hope not.
I haven't read 'All the light we cannot see', so can't comment on that... yesterday, we watched an adaptation of Marguerite Duras' 'La Douleur', which wasn't the most cheerful thing I've watched recently (!) but well done and close to her own story, as far as I could tell.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6313378/...
giveusaclue wrote: "Georg wrote: "On pronounciation: It took me a while to digest choir, yacht and vineyard. Let alone some geographical names..."
I'm not surprised Georg. Regarding epitome it took a question of a c..."
My son is making a real effort to read in English now, and it's a pain in the ass. Coming from Italian, where even the doubled consonants are pronounced, English is just impenetrable.
I'm not really too focused on getting his pronunciation perfect, only in ironing out the wildly mispronounced words (though, teeth, rough, hi versus eye [Italians have a real problem about spattering H's at random]).
Coming from the American English, there is a metric ton of ridiculousness in Countryside British english (Chicester, Leister, Worcestshire, Worcester) that are vestigial tails at this point. You can find many of the them consistently pronounced in the USA, but ONLY in the Massachusetts area.They don't really seem to serve any purpose other than to maintain an archaic tradition. They could really go the way of thine and doth and not much suffering or gnashing of teeth would occur
MK wrote: "On words in a different direction. How about a favorite word?"I have many favourite words, depending on the situation or context, but nowadays two are:
'codger' - applied jokingly to myself (I'm not in bad shape for my age - or so I keep thinking...), and
'curmudgeon' - applied to those of the same age, but who see fit to behave badly, in my opinion... from their POV, the terms could probably be exchanged...
(Recently, I came across the term 'coffin dodgers', which referred to some elderly persons liable to drop off the perch fairly soon, and it occurred to me that 'codgers' might be a contraction of this phrase - though I have been unable to stand up the theory.)
MK wrote (109): On words in a different direction. How about a favorite word?Mine is chary. I think of it as a word picture.
Starlings and larks
bumble bees and butterflies
humble pies
and hedgehogs and bubble&squeak
Mod
I have many favourite words, depending on the situation or context, but nowadays two are:
'codger' - applied jokingly to ..."
Ditto, 'curmudgeon'. Another favorite is 'lamentations'.
scarletnoir wrote: "I have many favourite words, depending on the situation or context, but nowadays two are:'codger' - applied jokingly to myself ..."
I had to look up codger and found it applies to an old man (and some people do think it's from 'coffin dodger', though probably not). I was quite surprised as when I was little if I was naughty or mischievous my Mum would say I was a codger. Another Midlands expression I expect, like mardy and mashing the tea. And I've just remembered that a synonym of codger for my behaviour was tinker.
But one word I haven't looked up is academe, as in groves of. I always assumed it was pronounced like academy but I'm sure I've heard some people say acadeem. Tell me those people are just ignorant. Or is it me?
FrancesBurgundy wrote: "I always assumed it was pronounced like academy but I'm sure I've heard some people say acadeem."That's why reading phonetic can sometimes be useful en.wiktionary.org/wiki/academe (/ˈæk.ə.diːm/), but if you have a sound system these days, it's even easier to find out: dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronuncia....
MK wrote: "On words in a different direction. How about a favorite word?"Mansuetude.
Then, because of what it evokes: firefly, dragonfly, dandelion, willow...
Paul wrote: "My son is making a real effort to read in English now, and it's a pain in the ass. Coming from Italian, where even the doubled consonants are pronounced, English is just impenetrable."Persevere, persevere, perserve. It will be well worth it in the end. One of the women I studied Italian with was married to an Italian. When they had children he refused to talk to them in Italian, thus losing a perfect opportunity for them to grow up bilingual. Criminal!!
Cholmondleigh pronounced Chumley
Featherstonhough pronounced Fanshaw!
giveusaclue wrote: "One of the women I studied Italian with was married to an Italian. When they had children he refused to talk to them in Italian, thus losing a perfect opportunity for them to grow up bilingual."Hmm, so he was Italian, but refused to talk to his kids in his mother tongue? Sounds to me more like there were some deeper issues there...
My mum has never taught me her mother tongue (French was arguably her other one), and I'm quite resentful of it; but since then I've learnt she's herself resentful of her own mum who'd prevent her from speaking it at home (speaking French was more 'classy'), and of, as a consequence, not 'mastering' it well enough...
On places' pronunciations: High Wycombe!
Paul wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Georg wrote: "On pronounciation: It took me a while to digest choir, yacht and vineyard. Let alone some geographical names..."
I'm not surprised Georg. Regarding epitome it to..."
Maybe we simply like our idiosyncratic language, a little from here and there and there and everywhere making it rich. Must confess to feeling quite cheated the other day with labor , think it was in Wordle , where’s the u my brain was squealing.
As to place names, yes We all get some wrong but the local residents take pride and there is usually a historical story behind the name, often going back hundreds of years.
Mod
My daughter had a friend at primary school who had an Italian mother and a French father. He wouldn't "allow" his wife to speak Italian to their daughter because she wouldn't be a genius if she had 2 languages. It gave me great satisfaction that Caroline who spoke 3 languages was always first in the class ahead of Laure!
Hushpuppy wrote: "FrancesBurgundy wrote: "I always assumed it was pronounced like academy but I'm sure I've heard some people say acadeem."That's why reading phonetic can sometimes be useful en.wiktionary.org/wiki..."
Oh no, my bad then.
I can read the IPA but just assumed I was correct so didn't want to look it up! It's certainly one of my least favourite words now.
Paul wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Georg wrote: "On pronounciation: It took me a while to digest choir, yacht and vineyard. Let alone some geographical names..."
I'm not surprised Georg. Regarding epitome it to..."
i've always loved the way italian surnames names like Dallaglio or Bergoglio, lose the g sound, or it becomes quite soft. Having Laurence Dallaglio(half irish-half italian) as england rugby captain in my uni days obviously helped my pronounciation!
AB76 wrote: "i've always loved the way italian surnames names like Dallaglio or Bergoglio, lose the g sound, or it becomes quite soft. "Reminds me of de Broglie!
AB76 wrote: "Paul wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Georg wrote: "On pronounciation: It took me a while to digest choir, yacht and vineyard. Let alone some geographical names..."
I'm not surprised Georg. Regarding ..."
Laurence of the Garlic?
On the other vagaries of english, it is a remarkable indo-european language in that it has no gender, which meant when learning German in particular at school and french to a slightly lesser extent, the gender stuff was totally confusing at first.I think of the Indo-European languages only Armenian, Afrikaans and English have no gender as well, though i would see both English and Afrikaans as products of another older tongue
*Elated announcement*
I've now heard back from Sian's replacement. Yes, it's a monthly rendez-vous, but it's happening good people of (e)TLS!
"The new series is going to be called "What we're reading" and each month we'll hear from 3-4 different voices about what they've been reading each month, then we hope that others will add their own in the comments."
I've been asked in particular to encourage everyone here to participate btl to get the discussion going, otherwise this won't be successful, so please please do!
Hushpuppy wrote: "I've been asked in particular to encourage everyone here to participate btl to get the discussion going, otherwise this won't be successful, so please please do!"I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL! I WILL!
Slawkenbergius wrote: "Hushpuppy wrote: "I've been asked in particular to encourage everyone here to participate btl to get the discussion going, otherwise this won't be successful, so please please do!"I WILL! I WILL!..."
THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS!
Hushpuppy wrote: "*Elated announcement*
I've now heard back from Sian's replacement. Yes, it's a monthly rendez-vous, but it's happening good people of (e)TLS!
"The new series is going to be called "What we're..."
great news....so are we going to double up on both or all of us move back to TLS. I must keep an eye on things on the Guardian website
Thanks Hush for all your work tryin to get TLS back
AB76 wrote: "so are we going to double up on both or all of us move back to TLS."Good question. No matter what, there'll always be room for keeping this GR group open (if moderators are up for it) for specific threads such as Photos, Poems, or Wordle! (Or moan about moderators 😁)
Edit: And you're welcome!
Hushpuppy wrote: "*Elated announcement*
I've now heard back from Sian's replacement. Yes, it's a monthly rendez-vous, but it's happening good people of (e)TLS!
I'll be snookered, I didn't expect that to happen. Thanks HP!
"The new series is going to be called "What we're..."
Hushpuppy wrote: "AB76 wrote: "so are we going to double up on both or all of us move back to TLS."Good question. No matter what, there'll always be room for keeping this GR group open (if moderators are up for it..."
we deffo need somewhere to moan about the Guardian mods...we have been free of vanishing posts for a while now...
Okay, just finished The Victim and I simply adored it! I wholeheartedly agree with Anthony Burgess's opinion that this is an early Bellow masterpiece. And there are lots of things to say about the book, but I'm a bit short on time now, so I'll take a rain check, fellow e-TLSers.Just can't resist quoting a fine example of Jewish humour from Bellow's novel.
"We have to live today," he said. "If you had a son, Harkavy, you'd want him to have a college education. Who's going to wait for the Messiah? They tell a story about a little town in the old country. It was out of the way, in a valley, so the Jews were afraid the Messiah would come and miss them, and they built a high tower and hired one of the town beggars to sit in it all day long. A friend of his meets this beggar and says, 'How do you like your job, Baruch?' So he says, 'It doesn't pay much, but I think it's steady work."
Hushpuppy wrote: "THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS!"No, THANK YOU, Glad!
Paul wrote: "I'll be snookered, I didn't expect that to happen. Thanks HP!"You're welcome!
Slawkenbergius wrote: "Hushpuppy wrote: "THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS! THANKS!"No, THANK YOU, Glad!"
DE NADA!
AB76 wrote: "Hushpuppy wrote: "*Elated announcement*
I've now heard back from Sian's replacement. Yes, it's a monthly rendez-vous, but it's happening good people of (e)TLS!
"The new series is going to be c..."
Thanks for all your work. I would also like to keep this group open
Hushpuppy wrote: "*Elated announcement*
I've now heard back from Sian's replacement. Yes, it's a monthly rendez-vous, but it's happening good people of (e)TLS!
"The new series is going to be called "What we're..."
Well, that's brilliant news - congratulations!
OF COURSE we will contribute BTL, though if it's only monthly I should think it's worth continuing with the GR Ersatz group as well... the 'Guardian' will bring in far more voices, I expect, and so it may be possible (and sensible) for us to recycle reviews from time to time... to hear a wider range of views on the G, and from 'friends' and debating opponents here on ETLS... ;-)
Thanks gladPlease can we keep some gr going. I’d like to keep A place for a poem, Archaeology and Photos as well as the main thread for some who don’t want to move back.
Hushpuppy wrote: "*Elated announcement*
I've now heard back from Sian's replacement. Yes, it's a monthly rendez-vous, but it's happening good people of (e)TLS!
That's great news, thank you so much for persevering. Do we have a date for it to start?
ай! какой молодец!молодец, Hushpuppy.
какой молодец!*
A gif for a mood:
https://media4.giphy.com/media/xUNda4...
I can't wait - let's line up those books!
Biblio gif:
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/IdleCostlyB...
*I hope this is correct. In any case, I thought it might fit the recent Russian literature discussions.
Off to Zoom-Feldenkrais - and happy dances.
FrancesBurgundy wrote: "Do we have a date for it to start?"Waiting for confirmation, but should be by the end of the month, so probably some time next week!
(And you're welcome too; and ALL of you, sorry if I don't reply to all the messages - esp. in Russian, thanks @bl! - I'm still "at work" 🙄)
scarletnoir wrote: "Hushpuppy wrote: "*Elated announcement*
I've now heard back from Sian's replacement. Yes, it's a monthly rendez-vous, but it's happening good people of (e)TLS!
"The new series is going to be c..."
i agree...the range of voices in the Guardian will be great to have again, though the downside is the pesky mods fiddling with posts and we will also need to be aware of flamers and casual visitors leaving aggressive responses
Hushpuppy wrote: "FrancesBurgundy wrote: "Do we have a date for it to start?"Waiting for confirmation, but should be by the end of the month, so probably some time next week!
(And you're welcome too; and ALL of ..."
i will keep my eyes peeled for its return. i have barely checked the guardian books pages for 18 mths in protest at losing TLS....now i shall return
Mod
I'm happy to keep eTLS going, as long as it's of value to you all, happy to let it go if it becomes redundant. Let's just see how it feels for a month or two when the new Guardian site is up and running. I'll discuss further with Anne...
CCCubbon wrote: "Thanks gladPlease can we keep some gr going. I’d like to keep A place for a poem, Archaeology and Photos as well as the main thread for some who don’t want to move back."
I'm sure this will remain almost as active. If the new site will be monthly, Andy will have to open 20 different threads to post on all the books he has read. We may have the advantage of gaining back some who couldn't tolerate the Goodreads format, like Tom Mooney.
Otherwise, I plan on frequenting this site equally as often.
I suppose now I'll have to keep up my end of the bargain and re-subscribe to the Guardian
Paul wrote: "We may have the advantage of gaining back some who couldn't tolerate the Goodreads format, like Tom Mooney."... and nosuchzone, nilpferd, NatashaFatale, etc. or indeed the many who sometimes participate here but seldom as often as on TLS because the GR interface is so unwieldy.
Slawkenbergius wrote: "Okay, just finished The Victim and I simply adored it!"Big 'like'.
Paul wrote: I suppose now I'll have to keep up my end of the bargain and re-subscribe to the Guardian." ..."Just what I was thinking Paul, better see if I can dispose of that old book. Does The Guardian count as a Good Cause do you think?
Hushpuppy wrote: "*Elated announcement*
I've now heard back from Sian's replacement. Yes, it's a monthly rendez-vous, but it's happening good people of (e)TLS!
"The new series is going to be called "What we're..."
Good news HP.
We will practically take it over..
Any news of when it starts?
Hushpuppy wrote: "I've now heard back from Sian's replacement. Yes, it's a monthly rendez-vous, but it's happening good people of (.."
Great news, Hushpuppy. Thanks for all you've done.
Great news, Hushpuppy. Thanks for all you've done.
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Re "Bannalec", I had seen this a few months back, which made me highly suspicious of the authenticity of it all... (A bit like the **!% Americanised view of Paris and St-Malo, and indeed of French and German characters, in All The Light We Cannot See.)