What are we reading? 19th January 2022

[MK]

FrancesBurgundy wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "I think I will give the rotting shark a miss too..."

When I was much younger I went on an international archaeological dig in France. One evening was devoted to the cuisines of..."

I wonder if it was lutefisk (try googling it) they thought was so good. Here in Seattle we have such a large Scandinavian population that one neighborhood has a parade every 17 May (or Mai) for a Swedish? holiday. There is a huge https://www.nordicmuseum.org/ in this same neighborhood.

Note that the museum has the National preface which I understand is a really big deal.

[SydneyH]

Hushpuppy wrote: "Faulkner powerfully writes of his profound fascination"

Hush, I think you mean Steinbeck :) Well done for your persistence with The Guardian staff.

[Hushpuppy]

SydneyH wrote: "Hushpuppy wrote: "Faulkner powerfully writes of his profound fascination"

Hush, I think you mean Steinbeck :) Well done for your persistence with The Guardian staff."

Jesus 😂. Well, I'm glad they've double-checked what I wrote - this was mid laptop crisis, so let's blame it on that! (Edit: you're welcome!)

[giveusaclue]

Hushpuppy wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "The new series, "What we're reading", has arrived: https://www.theguardian.com/books/202..."

Oh! I ha..."


I found Bring Up The The Bodies the least engaging of the three books, and The Mirror And The Light the best.

[MK]

Serhii Plokhy has a long piece about Ukraine in the FT - I'm going see if I can find a paper copy (I read paper much better) of their weekend edition on the news stand. I'm at the library because my internet has failed once again -our whole neighborhood has been affected by copper thieves.

[CCCubbon]

MK wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "Isn’t it odd the way like buses where you wait for ages and then three come along together , interesting books turn up together.
I have been trying to find a non fiction read and w..."

I have read about that before, waking up and doing things then going back to sleep was quite common but I haven’t read that book. There was a book out a few years ago called Nightwalking by Beaumont which I bought but found rather disappointing although cannot quite remember why now.

I have been amusing myself by working out how to convert a day into decimal time and look forward to reading the book to find out more. If we divide a day into ten equal parts each hour having 100 minutes, each minute 100 seconds we get the French Revolutionary Time which was introduced in 1793 but did not prove popular because most people were continually reverting to the usual time.
Rather like when we changed from imperial to mostly metric measurements and it took ages to think in the new way. In fact I still find it easier to think of distances in miles ….
Look forward to comparing notes when we get our books.

[AB76]

MK wrote: "Serhii Plokhy has a long piece about Ukraine in the FT - I'm going see if I can find a paper copy (I read paper much better) of their weekend edition on the news stand. I'm at the library because m..."

thanks for that MK

i will buy a copy tommorow at supermarket

[FrancesBurgundy]

MK wrote: "I wonder if it was lutefisk (try googling it) they thought was so good..."

A quick Google of lutefisk makes me think it resembles dried salt cod which is used for brandade de morue in France, bacalao (?) in Portugal and is also very popular in West Indian cuisine. That's the sort of thing I couldn't bear until I'd had it a few times (London has a big Portuguese population) when it became quite moreish. Though it's best to have an extractor and the windows open when you're cooking it.

I think what I was talking about is probably Surströmming, which you can Google and find out all about. But be warned, it's not for the faint-stomached.

[[deleted user]]

CCC - Poincaré - Back in the 1980s, The G had a detailed front-page piece about a little-known EEC committee that was close to finalising a draft regulation to decimalise the clock throughout Europe, with ten hours a day of 100 minutes each, and each minute of 100 seconds. It quoted remarks from various officials, and gave cost-benefit figures, and so on, and it certainly got me expostulating, until I remembered that the date was 1st April.

[AB76]

I see Paul Bowles is mentioned as an author in this thread, i must have missed it, he is a major fave of mine, i have his "Up Above The World" lined up on my pile. I am quite sad cos this will be the last Bowles of his classic period 1950-1970 that i have left to read

His cold style is not for everyone, morally ambigious and detached, i remember the rain drenched Tangiers of "Let It Come Down", the awesome sahara in "The Sheltering Sky" and the magical spell cast by revolutionary Fez in "The Spiders Lair", plus his deeply odd short stories set in Mexico

[Bill]

AB76 wrote: "I see Paul Bowles is mentioned as an author in this thread, i must have missed it, he is a major fave of mine, ..."

Actually, it was I who mentioned Bowles as a composer; I have never read anything by him.

[Reen]

Hushpuppy wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "The new series, "What we're reading", has arrived: https://www.theguardian.com/books/202..."

Oh! I ha..."

A fine achievement, gladhush. Justine would be proud. For a split second, I thought Lydia was you. Perhaps a passing resemblance?!

[Andy]

Gpfr wrote: "Further to Russia, Ukraine ... I'm about to start reading Erika Fatland's [book:The Border: A Journey Around Russia Through North Korea, China, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Ukraine, B..."

Looking forward to hearing what you think of it. She does write travel well.

[Yoshi]

scarletnoir wrote: "But as usual, life is not simple - I was reading the opening chapters of "Cotton goes to Harlem' by Chester Himes this morning... I hadn't got very far, when I came across 'the word' in ts entirety. Himes, of course, is a POC. Would it be OK for me to quote him - or not? (Just a hypothetical question - I have no intention of doing so!)"

Oh yes, absolutely. It is complex and the context matters a lot, I reckon. I wouldn't advocate for the n-word to never be used again. It is the product of a violent history and reality, which needs to be described. To eschew its use in fiction for instance, would only work to diminish and obscure this violence.

As far as your hypothetical question about quoting is concerned, and of course this is again only my humble opinion: I'd probably not quote the word. Because I wouldn't want anybody for whom the word has a traumatic dimension to stumble over it. My reasoning goes something like this: If I pick up a book about say, racial violence in Louisiana, I am making a conscious decision to engage with the topic and can reasonably expect to encounter accounts of racism and racist language.

To me that is different from an open thread such as here, were ( and that's the beauty of it) I do not have a clue about which topics are covered before I open the page. And I can understand people who say that in order to feel relaxed and somewhat safe within a space, be it on- or offline, they need to be relatively sure they will not encounter racist language. In this way, for me at least, not using the n-word and other discriminatory language isn't a question of censorship vs. freedom of speech, but a question of solidarity.

[Hushpuppy]

giveusaclue wrote: "I found Bring Up The The Bodies the least engaging of the three books, and The Mirror And The Light the best."

Thanks give, that's good to know. I was never not going to read the third one, but I might go at it with less trepidation now...

[Hushpuppy]

Reen wrote: "A fine achievement, gladhush. Justine would be proud. For a split second, I thought Lydia was you. Perhaps a passing resemblance?!"

ARGH. I don't know about proud, but yes, she'd probably be pleased to see it return in some guise... It's just brought it home once more tonight that I won't see another interwar post appear in these discussions.

Had to do a search on Lydia. If I follow you correctly, apart from the hair colour, I don't think so, but what do I know? So many people tell me I look like someone they know!

[Robert]

Andy wrote: "and A Journey into Russia by Jens Mühling translated from German by Eugene H. Hayworth.
This is the wonderful story of ho..."

Sounds like a most interesting book. I had heard that the Russians' "Little Russia" term rankled.

[MK]

FrancesBurgundy wrote: "MK wrote: "I wonder if it was lutefisk (try googling it) they thought was so good..."

A quick Google of lutefisk makes me think it resembles dried salt cod which is used for brandade de morue in F..."

I'm going to pass on that. Perhaps I should say I grew up in a hide-bound family where food is concerned. I had never had either spaghetti or pizza until they were served in the school cafeteria.

You know those plates that have divided parts - the larger one for meat and 2 smaller ones for potatoes and a veg. Well, my father would have been quite happy to have food served on one of those. But what gets me is - it all ends up together so why bother?

People!

[Robert]

I've posted a photo of the famous Roman statue "The Resting Boxer." US short story author Paul Gallico, a former sportswriter, wrote "The Roman Kid" about the statue. Gallico examined the ancient statue "The Resting Boxer" and tried to analyze the way that the match had been fought from the marks on the boxer's body. ("That artist didn't miss a thing." Gallico later won an award from the mystery writers for this story.

[Robert]

MK wrote: "FrancesBurgundy wrote: "MK wrote: "I wonder if it was lutefisk (try googling it) they thought was so good..."

A quick Google of lutefisk makes me think it resembles dried salt cod which is used fo..."

A coworker married into a Scandinavian family. She recounted some of the wonders of lutefisk. One recipe requires lye to be used in its preparation. The internet provides this recipe:
Saw fish into 3 parts, clean thoroughly and place in a wooden bowl or pail. Add water to cover and set in a cool place for 5 to 6 days. Change water each day.

Remove fish and thoroughly clean wooden bowl. Make a solution of water, lime and ashes and allow to stand overnight. Drain off clear liquid and pour over soaked fish. Set in a cool place for 7 days.

When fish is soft, remove from solution, scrub bowl well and soak fish for several days in cold clear water.

[Slawkenbergius]

Gpfr wrote: "The new series, "What we're reading", has arrived: https://www.theguardian.com/books/202... - with gladarvor/Hushpu..."

Hooray! 😀

[AB76]

Bill wrote: "AB76 wrote: "I see Paul Bowles is mentioned as an author in this thread, i must have missed it, he is a major fave of mine, ..."

Actually, it was I who mentioned Bowles as a composer; I have never..."

ah, ok, that solves it. any musical works by him you recommend?

[AB76]

Picked up the Weekend FT and looking foward to reading Serge Plokhiy on the Ukraine, thanks to MK for tip off!

Hope you found a copy too MK?

[AB76]

For fans of Gustav Meyrink and his novel "The Golem", here are some illustrations from Flashbak site:


https://flashbak.com/hugo-steiner-pra...

[giveusaclue]

CCCubbon wrote: "MK wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "Isn’t it odd the way like buses where you wait for ages and then three come along together , interesting books turn up together.
I have been trying to find a non fiction..."

Some of us still don't think in the new way!

[giveusaclue]

Robert wrote: "MK wrote: "FrancesBurgundy wrote: "MK wrote: "I wonder if it was lutefisk (try googling it) they thought was so good..."

A quick Google of lutefisk makes me think it resembles dried salt cod which..."

But would it be worth the effort?

[giveusaclue]

I have recently read in fairly quick succession four books by Oliver Davies nin the DI Thatcher series. The stories are decent enough but the proof reading is appalling (if it exists), missing words, wrong words, spelling. This is the case in all the books so far and I just can't understand how it is allowed to happen.

[AB76]

giveusaclue wrote: "I have recently read in fairly quick succession four books by Oliver Davies nin the DI Thatcher series. The stories are decent enough but the proof reading is appalling (if it exists), missing word..."

is it a reputable publisher on one of those POD jobs where you get badly coped, distorted covers, text crammed into centre of page and very little context?

[giveusaclue]

AB76 wrote: "is it a reputable publisher on one of those POD jobs where you get badly coped, distorted covers, text crammed into centre of page and very little context?"

I think he may be self-publishing.

[scarletnoir]

Recently, as a relief from 'the cares and worries of everyday life', I relaxed by reading in short order four books in Stuart MacBride's 'Logan McRae' series, set in and around Aberdeen. No point in giving detailed reviews of each one, so here are the good and not so good points about the series - IMO, of course! (This will mainly be of interest to crime afictionados, not your more intellectual types...)

Overall, MacBride writes well... he often comes up with interesting words in his descriptive passages, and makes use of a number of Scots words which baffle the Kindle dictionary - I don't often bother to google them, as you can guess at the meaning from the context. His dialogue is convincing; he handles thriller-type passages well (chases, fights); there is a fair smattering of humour, as well as some very black passages and dirty deeds. Books 9 and 10 take Logan back into uniform - where the research into police procedures and terminology feels totally authentic. Here, he is seen dealing with crime from the bottom up - drunks, lost geriatrics, petty thieves... up to organised criminal gangs, drug dealers and murderers. The passages on the small fry feel totally believable - of course, those involving major criminals are more 'imaginative'.

What's not to like? Well, there is a fair amount of repetition... his (usual) superior DI Steel is forever rummaging in her bra, or spilling crumbs down her front, for example... these are long books, so a good dose of blue pencil would not have turned them into short stories. Although the stories are told in third person narrative, we always have Logan's POV, and share some of his dreams and hallucinations... the other characters, by contrast, are somewhat under-developed, so that the many PCs and DCs in the series feel almost interchangeable. It's possible to get fed up with the series - I paused it after book 6's gruesome ending - but came back to it, and I'm glad I did. It's nice to be able to pick up something and just be entertained for a while.

Would I recommend the series? Yes, to anyone who likes crime as a genre - you'll get good plotting, some exciting passages, and some fun... try one and see if you like it (KIndle users can usually download samples, which has saved me a bit of money in rejects...). I probably enjoyed the most recent two books, with Logan as a Duty Sergeant, as much as any, but best to start at the beginning... it's also hard to believe that such a competent cop would be in such a lowly station, BTW, and the explanations are not entirely convincing!

The Missing and the Dead

In the Cold Dark Ground

[scarletnoir]

Machenbach wrote: "I did take a copy of Caleb Williams."

This sounded interesting - I was able to pick up a free (!) copy for the Kindle, because it is also on Project Gutenberg:

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/11323...

[scarletnoir]

Machenbach wrote: "By coincidence this morning I read and enjoyed Paul Bryant's review of a Murakami book, which appeared on my timeline."

Bryant's review of The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle was the one that made me LOL - it's my least favourite of the 3 or 4 I've read, and decided me to never cross his doorstep again...

[scarletnoir]

CCCubbon wrote: "A Brief History of Timekeeping... all the different calendars to quantum timepieces.

An interesting question for the theoreticians is: "Can time itself be quantized?", though I'm afraid my poor brain is not up to understanding the pro and con arguments...

[scarletnoir]

Gpfr wrote: "The new series, "What we're reading", has arrived: https://www.theguardian.com/books/202... - with gladarvor/Hushpu..."

Congratulations HP! Victory at last!

I'll go and have a look as soon as I finish here... it may take me until tomorrow, though...

[scarletnoir]

MK wrote: "...people used to wake up and do stuff in what we call 'the middle of the night.'

Less of the "used to"! Since my back has been bothering me from about a year ago, I have been unable to spend more than 5h or so continuously in bed, so 'getting up and doing stuff' - such as commenting on eTLS - is still a 'thing'! (On a good night I can go back for a couple of hours when the back is sorted - on a bad night, no such luck and it's got to be a siesta...)

But you're right, though - it used to be far more common - here's an article about the phenomenon:

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20...

Edit: I read an article about 'second sleep' not long ago, but now realise that it wasn't this one - I can assure you that I don't go around murdering people between the first and second sleep! It's quite interesting, though...

[scarletnoir]

FrancesBurgundy wrote: "A quick Google of lutefisk makes me think it resembles dried salt cod which is used for brandade de morue in France..."

I don't eat fish, but the preservation method for lutefisk seems to involve several additional steps, so I'd guess it tastes different from the brandade - which was a favourite of Maigret's... this old-fashioned dish was on the menu at a restaurant in La Rochelle, where my wife ate it with great relish!

[scarletnoir]

Yoshi wrote: "In this way, for me at least, not using the n-word and other discriminatory language isn't a question of censorship vs. freedom of speech, but a question of solidarity."

I think you expressed that very well, and I agree with your argument. Thanks.

[CCCubbon]

@Gladhush

I posted a little something on photos for you to say thanks

[Yoshi]

Well, as I have mentioned before, I have followed up The Idiot with Headlong by Michael Frayn. What to make of it? I am still unsure, to be honest. Let's start with the good: Michael Frayn certainly knows how to construct a plot: It is almost minimalistic, there are no superfluous add-ons or unnecessary backstories, basically just 4 characters and 4 locations, and that's it. I don't want to regurgitate the plot at length, but the characters are:

Michael, the narrator. A struggling London-based academic and his wife, Kate. Then there is the rural landowner Tony and his wife, Laura, who own the property next to Michael's and Kate's cottage. When Tony, who has money problems, shows the other couple paintings for their appraisal, Michael realises that Tony, unknowingly, might own a missing painting by Bruegel the elder, and decides to relieve Tony of it. Headlong, and I think that is its strongest point, delivers what it foreshadows in the title. You really get a sense of Michael loosing himself headlong in his quest.

A significant portion of the book is devoted to the information about Bruegel and his time that Michael gathers in the library while trying to find proof that the painting in question actually is a Bruegel. I enjoyed these parts very much, and thought they worked beautifully within the story.

So where lies the problem? *Taking a deep breath here*: Michael is a smug, self-absorbed, unlikeable and condescending snob. As he narrates the story, it takes on an arrogant and somewhat sneering tone. I said that there are only 4 characters, but really the only three-dimensional one is Michael himself. His wife Kate is a shadow of a character, whose qualities seem to be limited to be vaguely displeased with Michael while driving him to the station in order for him to do research in London. Tony and Laura are cardboard-characters that do not go beyond stereotypes. Frayn might have intended Michael to be self-absorbed to the point where no other character really matters, we will never know. If yes, it is successful writing to the detriment of the story. I was absolutely rooting for Michael to get his comeuppance at the end.

There is other stuff that didn't work for me, too. Stuff that I am usually generous enough to overlook, but Michael certainly did not make me feel generous. The whole portrayal of Michael and Kate as financially struggling seemed off to me. Tenured academics, with properties in London and the countryside, with the ability to take years off of work to find themselves. It had a whiff of Friends, where the struggling bohos all seem to be able to miraculously afford the rent for million-dollar condos in NY. One suspects Michael Frayn doesn't know too many poor people.

Also, Michael and Kate have just recently entered parenthood. They have a three month old baby that barely ever figures in the story. It mostly sleeps, other than that Michael hardly mentions her. One guesses that Kate takes care of her, because Michael doesn't. He goes about his daily life as if she wasn't there. Not that this is discussed between the two new parents. Of course, this could be, again, because the narrator is a self-absorbed a*hole and doesn't deem this part of his life important enough to mention. However it feels like Frayn wanted to add some colour and jeopardy (Michael risking the future of the whole family, rather than just a relationship), but then didn't feel too inclined to let this be of consequence for the story. Which to me is bad writing.

So yeah, a mixed one, this one was.

[[deleted user]]

Yoshi wrote: "Well, as I have mentioned before, I have followed up The Idiot with Headlong by Michael Frayn...."

In spite of everything that’s obnoxious about the characters in Headlong, you say enough to get me interested. It is after all THE Michael Frayn, and he’s writing on Bruegel.

I enjoyed your two long pieces on The Idiot. I agree that the second half does not have quite the impact of the sensational first part, which reads like a stage drama. I’ve got lost twice now in the long section around Ippolit’s essay.

I’m making a start on the Reminiscences of Anna Dostoevsky, recommended here a long time ago.

[Yoshi]

Russell wrote: "Yoshi wrote: "Well, as I have mentioned before, I have followed up The Idiot with Headlong by Michael Frayn...."

In spite of everything that’s obnoxious about the charac..."

By all means check out Headlong. I know my review doesn't exactly read like a ringing endorsement. That being said, I finished it within two days. Which, for me, is a speed unheard of. So there's certainly something there that made me come back to those pages.

Me and Michael just didn't gel. Skimming through other reviews here on GoodReads other people had other experiences and found him fun and witty. There's one where the reader says she imagined Hugh Grant delivering those lines. I imagined somebody more along the lines of a gross uncle in a Cohen brothers movie.

We seem to share the experience regarding The Idiot. Exactly where you were saying you got lost I must admit it felt like working through it.

The Reminiscences one sounds intriguing. I realised, also through replies here, that I know very little about Dostoevsky, the man (the myth, the legend). So I would be happy if you'd let us know how that goes.

[Bill]

AB76 wrote: "any musical works by him you recommend?"

It’s been some time since I listened to Bowles’ music – I plan to re-acquaint myself with it in the near future and will post reactions here when I do. My rather vague recollection is that it sounds modern without being aggressively dissonant. Most of the works on the CD were written in the US before his move to Morocco and reflect that time and place; no strings – wind, piano, and percussion – one piece with tenor, words by Saint-John Perse.

[AB76]

Bill wrote: "AB76 wrote: "any musical works by him you recommend?"

It’s been some time since I listened to Bowles’ music – I plan to re-acquaint myself with it in the near future and will post reactions here w..."

i would be interested in any Moroccan influenced music he made, i was aware he had studied music theory, though not sure what he briefly studied at university before he dropped out

i would recommend exploring some of his fiction if you can, almost all of it is set in North Africa, in particular Tangiers and other Moroccan locations

[AB76]

There is a sadness in Story of a Death Foretold: Pinochet, the CIA and the Coup against Salvador Allende, concerning that very human question of "what if", the events of 1973 had never happened and Henry Kissinger never been born, though i'm sure the USA would have found somebody else to prepare a coffin for Salvador Allende, sadly.

Guardiola-Rivera's book seems to have sunk quickly since its 2013 publication, my copy is second hand as i couldnt find it on sale new anywhere. I'm not sure why this is, the writing so far is impressive with the leftist movements in Latin America from 1930s to 1960s currently the topic in the chapters i have read.

Allende, in my opinion, previous to reading 30% of this bookl,seemed to offer a progressive, non-communist way foward for Chile, in the grip of powerful landed families and american meddling. Sadly his enemies knew how to frame him as far more radical than he was and to imagine he would do far worse things than he planned. His fall led Southern Cone Latin America into decades of tit for it violence and sadism, unspeakable brutality and constant insecurity.

Communism was a label used to tar leaders like Allende and the mud stuck, of course they were on the spectrum towards Marxism and its ideas but more along the lines of the post war Italian Communists under Berlinguer, willing to compromise and accomodate, unlike the dangerous murderous communism of Stalin, Lenin,Mao and others

[Tam]

AB76 wrote: "There is a sadness inStory of a Death Foretold: Pinochet, the CIA and the Coup against Salvador Allende, concerning that very human question of "what if", the events of 1973 had nev..."

And there was the very suspicious death of Chilean poet, ex-ambassador, and Nobel Laureate, Pablo Neruda as well, which I cover, in one of my blogs, on the film 'High Noon'. This is an extract on Neruda's death.

Pablo Neruda

'I am reminded here, of the Chilean poet Pablo Neruda. Though not that similar in storyline, he too had ‘an accounting’ to face. That of his broad support for his adopted ‘communist’ belief and ideology, and more particularly, and fatefully for him, his support for his old socialist friend, Salvador Allende, who had been democratically elected to lead his country, Chile, in 1970.

Allende was shot, either by himself (the official version) or even possibly assassinated by others, in 1973, during a coup led by General Pinochet. Although already ill, and in a clinic in Santiago, Chile, for treatment for prostate cancer, Neruda died, unexpectedly,
under very questionable circumstances, just days after his friend Allende.

Neruda told his driver, Manuel Araya, that he had been injected with a ‘poison’ into his stomach, by an American ‘doctor’ at the clinic. It seems now more likely, that it was Staphylococcus aureus, a bacterium, which was found in his body, in the much delayed postmortem, rather than a poison. It seems likely that this was on Pinochet’s orders, because of Neruda’s ongoing support for Allende’s left-wing politics. So, was he a victim of the political fallout over entrenched competing political philosophies? He was a veteran ambassador for Chile, as well as being a renowned poet, a publicly professed staunch ally of his socialist friend, Allende, and, a long-standing professed ‘communist’. He, probably, was perceived as being a possible threat to the ‘power-plays’ of Pinochet and his allies. Was he aware that he might be about to lose his life, in Chile? I’m not sure.

He was threatened because of his background, his high profile, and his past allegiances, and not for his historic direct actions, so there are strong resonances in that respect, but to Carl Foreman’s actual position, rather than his character Will Kane’s actions in the film. But there are clear similarities in the way that both Foreman and Neruda are being forced to engage with the nature of the question of their own past beliefs and allegiances, rather than in terms of their own, then current, views and activities.'

here is the whole thing if anyone is interested https://jediperson.files.wordpress.co...

[AB76]

Tam wrote: "AB76 wrote: "There is a sadness inStory of a Death Foretold: Pinochet, the CIA and the Coup against Salvador Allende, concerning that very human question of "what if", the events of..."

yes Pabby N was another alleged victim of the Chilean secret police, the DINA, along with other more liberal military figures like Gen Prats and Gen Schneider. By the late 70s the DINA were helping to kill many other people in targeted assassinations across latin america, in cahoots with the Argentine junta as part of Operation Condor

I think Neruda was alleged to have been killed by poisons prepared by the DINA, Micheal Townley, who killed other people for the DINA was a suspect

[AB76]

In The Voyage of the Beagle Charles Darwin describes meeting Fuegians in Tierra Del Fuego, the first people of the region, this was a good 20 years before settlement flooded into the far south of Patagonia and the Fuegians were almost wiped out by european diseases.

Darwins observations of Fuegians include some racist and derogatory language which i wont include here but he observed men of good height (six foot tall) and interacted with groups of these peoples as he sailed throughout the region.

Darwin probably witnessed the last throes of a people as what followed in the 1860s onwards was systematic extermination by the settlers and gold prospectors hunting down every Fuegian they saw. Julius Popper was a famous name in hunting down the last Fuegian people, sending manhunts into the Patagonian wilderness.

The extermination of first nation people is a recurring theme in Darwins journals, further North in Argentina, he observed the roughneck soldiers of General Rosas, murdering first people accross the plains. The soldiers were mostly of first nation origin but rival tribes

[Reen]

scarletnoir wrote: "Reen wrote: "Ha. Too much Guinness and tripe?"

Well, not tripe - I'm a veggie! Who knows, I may take you up on your offer of other tips, if I ever make it back to the fair city..."

I'd be delighted to share any tips with you. I was in town for lunch earlier at a fantastic Italian restaurant called Grano (it's the real deal and its veggie offerings are superb) opposite L. Mulligan, Grocer ... I thought of you. Posted a pic in photos.

[Tam]

AB76 wrote: "Tam wrote: "AB76 wrote: "There is a sadness inStory of a Death Foretold: Pinochet, the CIA and the Coup against Salvador Allende, concerning that very human question of "what if", t..."

I'm feeling my own ignorance here, and you might think it a daft question, but what does DINA stand for?

[AB76]

Tam wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Tam wrote: "AB76 wrote: "There is a sadness inStory of a Death Foretold: Pinochet, the CIA and the Coup against Salvador Allende, concerning that very human question of..."

Not ignorant, its a fairly obscure nasty organisation as they come , it stands for "Dirección de Inteligencia Nacional" and existed from 1974-77. Consistent torture and sadism was its Modus Operandi, i would imagine many of its torturers were trained by the CIA in the School of Americas. Pinochet attended that school