Monthly Group Reads: MARCH 2015 (Group Read 1) The End of Sparta by Victor Davis Hanson

[Gretchen]

Finally started! I only skimmed over the comments above. I'll go back and read them once I get further into the novel. Am I committing some sort of egregious Grecian sin by shortening the names of a few of the characters? For instance, I'm taking to calling Epaminondas, just Epa. :)

[Eileen]

Jane wrote: "I agree, Eileen. I know I pick up things that didn't quite make sense on the first reading, or that I had just sloughed over."

Most historical fiction I read, I know something about the period. With this one, I knew almost nothing, so I was kind of wandering in the dark when I started. having learned something about it now, I can appreciate the story better.

By the way, do you know if any of the other names besides Melon have a particular meaning? I was mostly thinking of Neto, since she plays a big part in the book.

[Darcy]

Try as I might, it turns out I'll probably not be getting to this one for the group read. I just haven't the time.
That'll teach me to over-commit.

[Daniel]

about 40% in, I think this is my favourite work of Ancient Greek HF I have read so far.

[Jane]

Eileen wrote: "Jane wrote: "I agree, Eileen. I know I pick up things that didn't quite make sense on the first reading, or that I had just sloughed over."

Most historical fiction I read, I know something about ..."

Yes, some do. There is a Principal characters list at the end somewhere which gives meanings to some of the names. Nothing for Nêto, though. :(

For example: Sturax & Porpax the dogs: butt-spike and strap inside a shield, respectively. Xiphos the horse = a sword
Some human characters:
Phryne the madam = toad [one character says she jumps from bed to bed]
Proxenos the architect = consul [nearest equivalent]
Gorgos/Kuniskos = dragon, his slave name/ puppy dog, his helot name given to him by the Spartans

[Jane]

Darcy wrote: "Try as I might, it turns out I'll probably not be getting to this one for the group read. I just haven't the time.
That'll teach me to over-commit."

Do keep it in mind for future reading, though.

[Jane]

I did wonder if the tower on the farm where Damo and her sons live is like a "kulla" where people live in rural Albania. I read about kullas in Broken April by Ismail Kadare

[Darcy]

Jane wrote: "Do keep it in mind for future reading, though."

I bought a copy, so I do plan on reading it, just when I have some time to devote to it. A couple of pages here and there just wasn't cutting it. I felt like I needed to immerse more into the book to do it justice.

[Jane]

You're probably wise. It does take a bit of concentration but is rewarding.

[Eileen]

Jane wrote: "I did wonder if the tower on the farm where Damo and her sons live is like a "kulla" where people live in rural Albania. I read about kullas in Broken April by [author:Ismail Kadare|1..."

I wouldn't be surprised if the towers were similar.

One thing I wish the author had done is add a few more references or a glossary for those of us not fluent in ancient Greek! I could usually figure it out, but your definitions of the names definitely adds layers to the story.

[Terri, Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Gretchen wrote: "Finally started! I only skimmed over the comments above. I'll go back and read them once I get further into the novel. Am I committing some sort of egregious Grecian sin by shortening the names of ..."


I do that too, Gretchen. Or I just say a mumble of letters that mildly resemble the actual name. I do that often in books where the characters names are long or too much of a tongue twister. :)

[Jane]

Eileen wrote: "Jane wrote: "I did wonder if the tower on the farm where Damo and her sons live is like a "kulla" where people live in rural Albania. I read about kullas in Broken April by [author:Is..."


I could too because **usually** he put an English translation near the Greek. Some examples:
" haima--"blood", he called his spear of cornel wood..."
"King down. The king is down--Basileus epesen..."
Ide. Thauma idesthai--hêde stratia, thauma mega. "Look at it. A great wonder this army, a great wonder."

I did think using the Greek where there was an exact English equivalent was an affectation or maybe he was striving for "atmosphere". Glossary of Greek words and phrases would have been helpful, though.

Eileen, you could be right about an Albanian kulla being similar to the tower on the farm.
Albania isn't too far away from Greece. :)

[Jane]

Terri wrote: "Gretchen wrote: "Finally started! I only skimmed over the comments above. I'll go back and read them once I get further into the novel. Am I committing some sort of egregious Grecian sin by shorten..."

I like looking up the exact pronunciation--I like to read aloud to myself [if no one's around]. :)
But that's oddball me. Whatever works for you guys... :)

[Eileen]

I hope this isn't a "spoiler alert" on a book called "The End of Sparta", but it is interesting to me to see that Spartan dominance in Greece was finally defeated and then there was only a short time of what could be called "freedom" before Phillip of Macedon conquered Greece and Alexander the Great later delivered the coup de grace.

Perhaps the moral to this story is that the fight for freedom from oppression never really ends.

[Victor]

I'm enjoying it so far, but it seems at times the story is agonizingly slow.

[Jane]

Victor wrote: "I'm enjoying it so far, but it seems at times the story is agonizingly slow."

The middle part sagged for me then it regained its footing.

@Eileen, I saw a documentary called "The Spartans" awhile back and in the final episode there was a lot of talk about the importance of Leuctra and the "beginning of the end of Sparta". That documentary taught me something new and made me want to read this book--a fictional treatment of most of the campaign against Sparta.

[Daniel]

Jane wrote: "The middle part sagged for me then it regained its footing."

I am noticing that too, but I am still loving it

[Jane]

Daniel (Devourer of Books) wrote: "Jane wrote: "The middle part sagged for me then it regained its footing."

I am noticing that too, but I am still loving it"

It's one of my favorites of 2014 [when I read it the first time] and still a favorite on subsequent rereadings.

Guess my metaphor should have said "stumbled" not "sagged". :)

[Eileen]

Jane wrote: "Victor wrote: "I'm enjoying it so far, but it seems at times the story is agonizingly slow."

The middle part sagged for me then it regained its footing.

@Eileen, I saw a documentary called "The S..."

Do you recall where you saw the documentary? Might be helpful to watch it.

[Jane]

Eileen wrote: "Jane wrote: "Victor wrote: "I'm enjoying it so far, but it seems at times the story is agonizingly slow."

The middle part sagged for me then it regained its footing.

@Eileen, I saw a documentary ..."

I got it from Netflix. I watched it several times before I sent it back. I may be mistaken, but I think it was originally a BBC television program.

[Eileen]

Jane wrote: "Eileen wrote: "Jane wrote: "Victor wrote: "I'm enjoying it so far, but it seems at times the story is agonizingly slow."

The middle part sagged for me then it regained its footing.

@Eileen, I saw..."

Thanks. I'll check it out.

[Gretchen]

I think I might have to put this book aside and come back to it. I am struggling to keep with all the different names and places. My knowledge of Ancient Greece is just too lacking at this point. My attention span is also pretty sparse but that's a separate issue. I am about 100 pages in but I find myself only able to read two or three pages at a time.

[Jane]

Gretchen wrote: "I think I might have to put this book aside and come back to it. I am struggling to keep with all the different names and places. My knowledge of Ancient Greece is just too lacking at this point. M..."

This book probably presupposes a cursory knowledge of ancient Greece. If I hadn't read other books in an ancient Greek setting I'd probably be lost, too.

[Gretchen]

That makes me feel better about taking a time out. There's no doubt the author's scholastic background is on display in this novel. I think I just need a chance to educate myself so I can appreciate his work.

[Jane]

Plus you have the kidlets there, so I imagine you don't have a whole block of time. :)

[Gretchen]

The warmer the weather gets, the less time I have.

[Teanka]

This book is definitely proving to be very informative. I also love the fact the author is using so many Greek words and translating them in the same sentence. Also describing army tactics, and providing the reader with maps, a list of characters and places and so on. And it's great that I can trust his descriptions are accurate: after all, he's a historian. Definitely a kind of HF that I like the most, even though maybe not as exciting as some of the others out there, but very solid and detailed (I'm still in the first half of the book, after the battle of Leuktra)

[Eileen]

Teanka wrote: "This book is definitely proving to be very informative. I also love the fact the author is using so many Greek words and translating them in the same sentence. Also describing army tactics, and pro..."

Not an easy book, but definitely worthwhile.

[Jane]

Absolutely agree, Eileen!!
Teanka, I like your pointing out what you see as positives! I too liked the explanation of loksên in Ainias's tactics.

[Silver]

In someways I feel that perhaps the authors extensive knowledge upon the subject and the wealth of information he provides within the book is getting in the way of the novel. While I do believe he is a skilled writer, at the same time I feel his style of writing feels a bit too journalistic. I feel too much like events are simply being reported to me. I cannot get really drawn into the story or connect with any of the characters.

There are still some things of which I do enjoy about the book. As others have mentioned I like the way in which we are given multiple points of view particularly in seeing both the Spartan side as well as the side of the Boeotians. There are some very lovely descriptions in the book, and I like the way in which he address the gods and weaves the religious beliefs of the Greeks into the story.

But I find that the book does read very slowly, and can be a bit tedious.

[Jane]

Silver wrote: "In someways I feel that perhaps the authors extensive knowledge upon the subject and the wealth of information he provides within the book is getting in the way of the novel. While I do believe he ..."

Well, the man IS a historian, first and foremost. I think he's done a commendable job at fiction overall. His putting it in this form and concentrating on these representational characters, brought it home to me. It does bog down in the middle; I agree.

[Eileen]

Silver wrote: "In someways I feel that perhaps the authors extensive knowledge upon the subject and the wealth of information he provides within the book is getting in the way of the novel. While I do believe he ..."

I thought the book read slowly, too. But it seemed to me more due to the almost Homeric style of writing the author used. Unfortunately, that does create something of a barrier to connecting easily with the characters. You are right about that part.

[Jane]

I thought the fictional characters easy to connect to except maybe the "baddies", who were 100% bad. But the historical ones were kind of distant.

[Eileen]

Jane wrote: "I thought the fictional characters easy to connect to except maybe the "baddies", who were 100% bad. But the historical ones were kind of distant."

I definitely would have liked to learn more about Epaminondas. He seems to have been a one of a kind person.

[Jane]

This whole website on Ainias might be interesting to people if they want to know more about him.
And there's also the text of his work that has come down to us.

http://www.aeneastacticus.net/public_...

[Silver]

Jane wrote: "I thought the fictional characters easy to connect to except maybe the "baddies", who were 100% bad. But the historical ones were kind of distant."

Maybe it occurs later in the novel but thus far there are not any characters that I would necessarily perceive as being good or bad.

[Silver]

One thing which kind of confuses me

(view spoiler)[Melon is accredited with killing the Spartan King, but it was my understanding that the king was already dead when Melon threw his spear at him. Did I miss something? Or Does Melon think he killed the king? Or is just taking credit for doing so? (hide spoiler)]

[ECH]

Looks like I won't be going through this one with y'all. It's due back at the library soon and I have no enthusiasm to start it.

[Teanka]

Silver wrote: "One thing which kind of confuses me

[spoilers removed]"

Oh yes, you missed something. (view spoiler)[ Melon killed Kleombrotos with his sword the tip of which went through the king's mouth. Afterwards he thought that maybe it wasn't a killing blow, so he managed top throw a spear he collected from the ground (his spear was already broken at that time) and the spear both wounded Lichas in his ear and went through the leg of Kleombrotos' corpse. (hide spoiler)]

[Eileen]

Jane wrote: "This whole website on Ainias might be interesting to people if they want to know more about him.
And there's also the text of his work that has come down to us.

http://www.aeneastacticus.net/publi..."

Thanks for the link Jane. Always good to be able to understand a little more about these characters.

[Chiliarch]

@Eileen, I saw a documentary ..."

It was probably Bettany Hughes' documentary The Spartans http://www.amazon.com/Spartans-Bettan...

which is really, really well done and very interesting and informative.

[Chiliarch]

This is my (extremely) short review of the novel from back in 2012 :

As for Victor Davis Hanson's The End of Sparta I can only say that it was hard to get through, being written in a pseudo-ancient language and peopled by not very likeable or interesting characters. Hanson is a great fan of Epaminondas, the Theban general, but after reading this novel I came out actually rooting for the Spartans, who are the bad guys in the story.

I am not good at doing reviews, so I usually stick to rating books.

[Jane]

Chiliarch wrote: "@Eileen, I saw a documentary ..."

It was probably Bettany Hughes' documentary The Spartans http://www.amazon.com/Spartans-Bettan......"

Yes, that was the one! I got it from Netflix.

[Eileen]

Thanks for the link. My husband has a Netflix account and he loves stuff on Sparta (thanks to Gates of Fire), so I'll ask him about getting it.

[Silver]

Chiliarch wrote: "Hanson is a great fan of Hanson is a great fan of Epaminondas, the Theban general, but after reading this novel I came out actually rooting for the Spartans, who are the bad guys in the story."

I found myself rooting for the Spartans as well. I cannot exactly say why. Though I do find it difficult not to admire them knowing of their military prowess. And there was something about Epaminondas that within this book I could never really bring myself to care for. Lichas was my favorite character and for me one of the most interesting characters in the book.

[Victor]

I also have to agree that the protagonists in the book are not very interesting or likable. I find myself struggling not to skip ahead at certain points, but at the same time the story is interesting if slow.

[Daniel]

I have returned to this book, after reading some others due to a time constraint, and I am hoping to finish it before the end of the month. I am still enjoying it (That being said, I am not a big fan of the protagonists, but I have never had to be to enjoy a story.)

[Alicja]

I am slowly making my way through it as well. I try and read 20 pages a day but its complex and some days after work my brain is just done.

Anyway, I wanted to say that I'm rooting for the Spartans as well. Its weird rooting for the "bad guys".

[Jane]

Alicja wrote: "I am slowly making my way through it as well. I try and read 20 pages a day but its complex and some days after work my brain is just done.

Anyway, I wanted to say that I'm rooting for the Spartan..."

no, if you like these guys better....

[Victor]

I think so far the only character I really like is Melissos, so I at least found one.

As for everyone cheering for the Spartans, well (view spoiler)[ At the moment the are by far the underdogs, and everyone loves an underdog. They are also the elite fighting force. (hide spoiler)]