Reading the 20th Century discussion

This topic is about
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy
Group reads
>
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy by John le Carré (March 2022)
message 51:
by
Susan
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mar 04, 2022 04:08AM

reply
|
flag
Sorry, didn't mean to taint your innocence, Nigeyb!
I seem to remember reading somewhere that le Carré himself admitted, with hindsight, that his women often lacked the complexity of his male characters - and I admired him all the more for recognising and accepting that.
I realise that we have very different takes on the books (which is fascinating, not a criticism) in that I don't find Smiley likeable or even necessarily empathetic. He's a brilliant character but he's also all about moral grey areas.
And for all his wistful desires to go away and study German poetry, he can never resist being called back to the Circus and getting embroiled in, even heading up, all the plots. I don't believe for a second that he could have survived as long as he has at the top of his game without being brutal and ruthless when it comes to it. And however much we see him wounded at various outcomes (The Spy Who Came In From The Cold, for example, for those who've read it), he doesn't walk away from the game. I think he accepts responsibility for the results of his actions and can even mourn them, but he would do the same again, if he had to.
For me, le Carré is all about these compromises and contingencies. It's precisely the way the espionage/political world eats away at humanity that I think he's interested in. And these complicated, compromised characters like Smiley are why I love these books.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that le Carré himself admitted, with hindsight, that his women often lacked the complexity of his male characters - and I admired him all the more for recognising and accepting that.
I realise that we have very different takes on the books (which is fascinating, not a criticism) in that I don't find Smiley likeable or even necessarily empathetic. He's a brilliant character but he's also all about moral grey areas.
And for all his wistful desires to go away and study German poetry, he can never resist being called back to the Circus and getting embroiled in, even heading up, all the plots. I don't believe for a second that he could have survived as long as he has at the top of his game without being brutal and ruthless when it comes to it. And however much we see him wounded at various outcomes (The Spy Who Came In From The Cold, for example, for those who've read it), he doesn't walk away from the game. I think he accepts responsibility for the results of his actions and can even mourn them, but he would do the same again, if he had to.
For me, le Carré is all about these compromises and contingencies. It's precisely the way the espionage/political world eats away at humanity that I think he's interested in. And these complicated, compromised characters like Smiley are why I love these books.
All true RC
The Looking Glass War was JLC's attempt to provide a more truthful account of the intelligence services.
Smiley only has a bit part in this book, however his perceptiveness and awareness help the reader to understand what is happening.
Amateurism, tragedy and stupidity permeate the entire novel. JLC lays bare snobbery, vanity, a sense of denial and delusion, repressed emotions, faded dreams, and incompetence. It's palpable, and often hard to read, but remains grimly compelling throughout. It’s exactly what he set out to write: a more truthful novel that captured the internal politics, the little Englander mentality, and the complacency of the mid-60s UK intelligence service.
Compared with its predecessor The Spy Who Came In from the Cold, The Looking Glass War (George Smiley #4) was a relative flop, especially in Britain. In John le Carré's introduction, written in 1991, he addresses this...
After the success of The Spy Who Came In from the Cold I felt I had earned the right to experiment with the more fragile possibilities of the spy story than those I had explored till now. For the truth was, that the realities of spying as I had known them on the ground had been far removed from the fiendishly clever conspiracy that had entrapped my hero and heroine in The Spy. I was eager to find a way of illustrating the muddle and futility that were so much closer to life. Indeed, I felt I had to: for while The Spy Who Came In from the Cold had been heralded as the book that ripped the mask off the spy business, my private view was that it had glamourised the spy business to Kingdom Come.
So this time, I thought, I'll tell it the hard way. This time, cost what it will, I'll describe a Secret Service that is really not very good at all; that is eking out its wartime glory; that is feeding itself on Little England fantasies; is isolated, directionless, over-protected and destined ultimately to destroy itself.
The Looking Glass War was JLC's attempt to provide a more truthful account of the intelligence services.
Smiley only has a bit part in this book, however his perceptiveness and awareness help the reader to understand what is happening.
Amateurism, tragedy and stupidity permeate the entire novel. JLC lays bare snobbery, vanity, a sense of denial and delusion, repressed emotions, faded dreams, and incompetence. It's palpable, and often hard to read, but remains grimly compelling throughout. It’s exactly what he set out to write: a more truthful novel that captured the internal politics, the little Englander mentality, and the complacency of the mid-60s UK intelligence service.
Compared with its predecessor The Spy Who Came In from the Cold, The Looking Glass War (George Smiley #4) was a relative flop, especially in Britain. In John le Carré's introduction, written in 1991, he addresses this...
After the success of The Spy Who Came In from the Cold I felt I had earned the right to experiment with the more fragile possibilities of the spy story than those I had explored till now. For the truth was, that the realities of spying as I had known them on the ground had been far removed from the fiendishly clever conspiracy that had entrapped my hero and heroine in The Spy. I was eager to find a way of illustrating the muddle and futility that were so much closer to life. Indeed, I felt I had to: for while The Spy Who Came In from the Cold had been heralded as the book that ripped the mask off the spy business, my private view was that it had glamourised the spy business to Kingdom Come.
So this time, I thought, I'll tell it the hard way. This time, cost what it will, I'll describe a Secret Service that is really not very good at all; that is eking out its wartime glory; that is feeding itself on Little England fantasies; is isolated, directionless, over-protected and destined ultimately to destroy itself.

I have only read through TTSS (my turn for The Honourable Schoolboy on Libby should come up in a couple of months) so my comments are limited to TTSS and the two preceding books.
Smiley's character is an enigma to me. I find him sympathetic in that for all his intelligence and perceptiveness, he is buffeted by forces beyond his control and something of a failure at playing institutional and relationship politics. I wonder what drives his loyalty/attachment to country, the Circus and to Ann? Is it love/patriotism, habit or something else? And how is he different from Karla?
I sense that he is an enigma to himself as well. The "academic" interests he thought he had outside the Circus faded once he was drummed out and had all the time he wanted to pursue them. They were good as a "distraction" but no more than that.
Certainly a brilliant creation.
Here's an article from The New Yorker which is an interesting profile of Smiley and one which touches on some of the themes we have discussed....
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cul...
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cul...
Interesting article - I really must track down those series. And great point about Smiley's refusal to get angry, at least on the surface - don't we sometimes see inside his head and he not nearly so calm on the inside.
It picks up on the power that Smiley has, the relentlessness when he has something in sight, the implacability - all those qualities we sense and which I find quite chilling, maybe because they're so quiet and hidden in him.
Interesting that le Carré considered The Spy Who Came In... as glamorising espionage as that's not how I read it. Looking Glass War is brilliant though.
It picks up on the power that Smiley has, the relentlessness when he has something in sight, the implacability - all those qualities we sense and which I find quite chilling, maybe because they're so quiet and hidden in him.
Interesting that le Carré considered The Spy Who Came In... as glamorising espionage as that's not how I read it. Looking Glass War is brilliant though.
Ben wrote: "...and something of a failure at playing institutional and relationship politics."
Hmm! Maybe we should pick this point up again when you've read on, Ben :)
I'm struck by your point about Smiley being an enigma to himself - yes, he thinks he's wants to retreat into academia but actually he leaps at the chance, again and again, to get back into the game.
Yep, that's exactly what I think: is there any difference between him and Karla?
Hmm! Maybe we should pick this point up again when you've read on, Ben :)
I'm struck by your point about Smiley being an enigma to himself - yes, he thinks he's wants to retreat into academia but actually he leaps at the chance, again and again, to get back into the game.
Yep, that's exactly what I think: is there any difference between him and Karla?

My reading has been severely restricted this week by a nasty illness and a couple of days in hospital so it's slow progress for me, but I'm enjoying it immensely. It puts most other spy thrillers completely in the shade (with some noble exceptions, of course).

Sort of. A lot better than last week, anyway. Thanks, Susan.
Back to bed now. (Or perhaps in a group like this, I ought to say "Let us sleep now...")
Sid wrote: "It puts most other spy thrillers completely in the shade (with some noble exceptions, of course)."
Yes, take care, Sid. When you're feeling perkier, I'd love to hear what your 'noble exceptions' are - I'm sold on reading the entire le Carré back catalogue but are you thinking of other spy writers who I perhaps haven't read yet?
Yes, take care, Sid. When you're feeling perkier, I'd love to hear what your 'noble exceptions' are - I'm sold on reading the entire le Carré back catalogue but are you thinking of other spy writers who I perhaps haven't read yet?

Thanks, RC. Just a quick emergence to say that Len Deighton and, of course, Mick Herron spring to mind. Both very different from le Carré and from each other, but both excellent, in my view.
Agreed Sid
Both amongst the best
Deighton’s Bernie Samson series is a winner. Adored it
We all love Herron here 🤠
Both amongst the best
Deighton’s Bernie Samson series is a winner. Adored it
We all love Herron here 🤠
I have also heard lots of good things about Charlie Muffin, but have yet to read him:
https://spywrite.com/2017/07/19/the-c...
https://spywrite.com/2017/07/19/the-c...
Is anyone still reading this who doesn't know the ending? Just wondering if we can talk spoilers yet?

I am on chapter 30. Feel free to give spoilers. I am enjoying, but not quite loving, it. I recognise it is good, but I am never that invested with le Carre and am unsure why.
I think we should wait until you have finished
I wonder if it will make you feel differently about the book. Either way I look forward to your final reaction
I wonder if it will make you feel differently about the book. Either way I look forward to your final reaction

(I'm currently at the interview between Smiley and Jim Prideaux. Riveting.)
Looking back I gave this 4 stars and the same for Smiley's People: even though I love these books something holds me back from the full 5 stars. I gave The Looking Glass War and I'm sure some other le Carrés the full 5 stars so am wondering about my own reaction.
I'm wondering if it's something to do with the structure and the complicated chronology of Tinker Tailor?
I'm wondering if it's something to do with the structure and the complicated chronology of Tinker Tailor?

I'm on the last chapter, so know who the mole is now. Please go ahead with spoilers. I hope to finish today, but have a very busy work schedule. I would also go for 4 stars. I have no idea why I can't get more invested in le Carre. The plots are brilliant, I just don't find him as compelling as, say Herron. I do think I prefer Herron's characters. I like the way Smiley negotiates his world though, always aware he is a little laughed at, veering between power and humiliation. That sense of the Service being something between a gentlemen's club and public school. That need to be asked to belong, or never quite fitting in, is done brilliantly.
Susan wrote: "I've finished now! Spoilers away...."
I've always enjoyed and appreciated the Prideaux/Haydon relationship.
Particularly poignant is how Jim Prideaux's assasination of Haydon is not because he was a traitor to his country but because he betrayed him personally (and the Russians in Budapest).
This is captured brilliantly in the conclusion to the 2011 film which juxtaposes a Circus Xmas party with the moment of Haydon's death and the immediate post Haydon era, all to the unlikely but amazing soundtrack of Julio Iglesias singing La Mer. It ends with Smiley returning to Ann and becoming the new head. Cinematic perfection.
This YouTube clip has about a minute of the scene before in Jim Prideaux's caravan which is also an integral part of the climactic scene. Colin Firth as Haydon does compromised and cocky perfectly. The exchanged look between Haydon and Prideaux is really moving. Show don't tell, eh? This is gets me every time...
https://youtu.be/o_s2r1vUzAc
I've always enjoyed and appreciated the Prideaux/Haydon relationship.
Particularly poignant is how Jim Prideaux's assasination of Haydon is not because he was a traitor to his country but because he betrayed him personally (and the Russians in Budapest).
This is captured brilliantly in the conclusion to the 2011 film which juxtaposes a Circus Xmas party with the moment of Haydon's death and the immediate post Haydon era, all to the unlikely but amazing soundtrack of Julio Iglesias singing La Mer. It ends with Smiley returning to Ann and becoming the new head. Cinematic perfection.
This YouTube clip has about a minute of the scene before in Jim Prideaux's caravan which is also an integral part of the climactic scene. Colin Firth as Haydon does compromised and cocky perfectly. The exchanged look between Haydon and Prideaux is really moving. Show don't tell, eh? This is gets me every time...
https://youtu.be/o_s2r1vUzAc


I guessed who the mole would be early on, because of the personal element both with Prideaux and Ann, but still loved the way Smiley dug him out (sorry!) I really enjoyed the tense episodes that had me on the edge of the seat - Sid mentioned the file stealing in his review, but I also enjoyed Prideaux’s and Max’s accounts of all the events that led up to the disastrous mission (the woman with the pram, the rendezvous with Max etc)
I also love the Herron books, but I see them as fun and the characters as caricatures. I wish they were real but I never quite feel they are. I wish the Circus le Carré paints wasn’t real, but I fear it is, and it’s very bleak. But he’s such a great storyteller.
I agree with all of that Pamela - thanks so much for posting
Pamela wrote:
"I also love the Herron books, but I see them as fun and the characters as caricatures. I wish they were real but I never quite feel they are. I wish the Circus le Carré paints wasn’t real, but I fear it is, and it’s very bleak. But he’s such a great storyteller."
You've hit the nail on the head here Pamela.
I adore Herron's Slow Horses series too but they are far more knockabout and plot-driven than JLC. That said, there is real jeopardy, brutality and hard politics at play too. Yet, for all that, I agree that JLC's world feels more authentic and complex. Particularly his characters who are invariably nuanced, flawed and totally convincing.
Pamela wrote:
"I also love the Herron books, but I see them as fun and the characters as caricatures. I wish they were real but I never quite feel they are. I wish the Circus le Carré paints wasn’t real, but I fear it is, and it’s very bleak. But he’s such a great storyteller."
You've hit the nail on the head here Pamela.
I adore Herron's Slow Horses series too but they are far more knockabout and plot-driven than JLC. That said, there is real jeopardy, brutality and hard politics at play too. Yet, for all that, I agree that JLC's world feels more authentic and complex. Particularly his characters who are invariably nuanced, flawed and totally convincing.
Thanks for the clip, Nigeyb - I take back my earlier comments, Colin Firth looks like great casting for Bill Haydon, and also Mark Strong (I have a bit of a crush on him!) as Jim Prideaux. I didn't think the book ended with Smiley taking the head job, though, does it? Don't we find that out at the start of the sequel The Honourable Schoolboy?
On the le Carré/Herron topic, I've always thought that in a sense the Slough House books are subtly in conversation with le Carré's world: Catherine with her drinking is a cleaned up version of Connie, and River would fit into Smiley's world almost as another Peter Guillam. Jackson Lamb himself is a sort of anti-Smiley: he takes on his shabbiness and hidden power, his relentless attitude, but Smiley's surface humility and self-effacedness becomes Lamb's in your face obnoxiousness which hides much of his inner self. And I think Herron is gleefully undercutting the gentlemanly Old Boy thing with Lamb's farting and swearing.
On the le Carré/Herron topic, I've always thought that in a sense the Slough House books are subtly in conversation with le Carré's world: Catherine with her drinking is a cleaned up version of Connie, and River would fit into Smiley's world almost as another Peter Guillam. Jackson Lamb himself is a sort of anti-Smiley: he takes on his shabbiness and hidden power, his relentless attitude, but Smiley's surface humility and self-effacedness becomes Lamb's in your face obnoxiousness which hides much of his inner self. And I think Herron is gleefully undercutting the gentlemanly Old Boy thing with Lamb's farting and swearing.
I can't remember the exact ending as I read the trilogy in quick succession a few years back now
Very insightful parallels between le Carré/Herron. That's genius. I do feel that Herron is now the closest thing we have to JLC, and long may he continue to write such splendid books
Very insightful parallels between le Carré/Herron. That's genius. I do feel that Herron is now the closest thing we have to JLC, and long may he continue to write such splendid books
Does anyone know if Herron has Intelligence experience? My take is that he's more of a finger-on-the-pulse when it comes to contemporary UK politics rather than having le Carré's detailed insight into MI5/6 - but I don't know that as fact.
Nigeyb wrote: "I can't remember the exact ending as I read the trilogy in quick succession a few years back now."
The end is typically more downbeat in the book - but I can understand that as a standalone film, they wanted to give it a more defined conclusion. Even Smiley's work 'triumph' is undercut though with the return of Ann so I guess they're going for the same tonal feel in the film even if the circumstances have been changed.
The end is typically more downbeat in the book - but I can understand that as a standalone film, they wanted to give it a more defined conclusion. Even Smiley's work 'triumph' is undercut though with the return of Ann so I guess they're going for the same tonal feel in the film even if the circumstances have been changed.


I remember that radio dramatisation and I thought it was very good, but for me a lot of the pleasure and sheer class of the book was le Carré's prose and storytelling. I'll be interested to know what you make of the dramatised version, Lisa.

Wayne wrote:
"...why, did Ann Sercombe accept George Smiley's marriage proposal?"
We never get a definitive answer
The Haydon affair effectively kills the relationship though, as we discover later in the trilogy
"...why, did Ann Sercombe accept George Smiley's marriage proposal?"
We never get a definitive answer
The Haydon affair effectively kills the relationship though, as we discover later in the trilogy

Security?

I am not sure I understand Ben. Financial? She is supposed to be a member of the aristocracy, so one would imagine some means or access to it. When we first read about her, she went off with a Cuban race driver, not exactly risk-free behaviour. Maybe she married him for his brains, I don't know. I am stumped.

So, I agree with you, it's a bit of a mystery.
Perhaps a youthful mistake.
Or perhaps it wasn't much of a focus for Mr Le Carré
This paragraph sumarises up much about the situation....
The marriage of Lady Ann Sercombe and Mr. George Smiley was about as unlikely as it was to later be dysfunctional. She was aristocratic, social, beautiful, and young. He was plain-looking, shy, undistinguished in terms of class or position, and considerably older than her. He thought that Ann was his grand coup, a validation that he was a worthwhile person in a lonely, hostile world. At his wedding he “had waddled down the aisle in search of the kiss that would turn him into a Prince” while his bride’s upper class relatives make fun of him behind his back. When Ann first leaves him, he becomes a joke that people soon forget about, the toad that had married the beautiful Ann Sercombe. She will return to him and leave him over and over again. He waits for signs that she is growing restless. She only has to leave the house without earrings for his heart to sink, because he knows she’s on her way to an assignation.
https://thealphabetician.wordpress.co...
The marriage of Lady Ann Sercombe and Mr. George Smiley was about as unlikely as it was to later be dysfunctional. She was aristocratic, social, beautiful, and young. He was plain-looking, shy, undistinguished in terms of class or position, and considerably older than her. He thought that Ann was his grand coup, a validation that he was a worthwhile person in a lonely, hostile world. At his wedding he “had waddled down the aisle in search of the kiss that would turn him into a Prince” while his bride’s upper class relatives make fun of him behind his back. When Ann first leaves him, he becomes a joke that people soon forget about, the toad that had married the beautiful Ann Sercombe. She will return to him and leave him over and over again. He waits for signs that she is growing restless. She only has to leave the house without earrings for his heart to sink, because he knows she’s on her way to an assignation.
https://thealphabetician.wordpress.co...
The world is full of beautiful women who are married to plain men. Some compensate with money, others by intellectual prowess. I think we all have different readings of Smiley: I see him as very clever and very powerful although the latter is often hidden under that modest shabbiness.
The relationship endures across the books, with Ann returning and leaving restlessly. I wonder if all her antics which she makes no attempt to hide are attempts to push Smiley into doing something active: a grand declaration? A final separation? And his indecision and acceptance just feed her need for drama?
The relationship endures across the books, with Ann returning and leaving restlessly. I wonder if all her antics which she makes no attempt to hide are attempts to push Smiley into doing something active: a grand declaration? A final separation? And his indecision and acceptance just feed her need for drama?
Books mentioned in this topic
Agent Sonya: Moscow's Most Daring Wartime Spy (other topics)The Honourable Schoolboy (other topics)
The Looking Glass War (other topics)
The Spy Who Came In from the Cold (other topics)
The Looking Glass War (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
John Le Carré (other topics)John Le Carré (other topics)
John Le Carré (other topics)