"Klara and the Sun" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[Christopher]

Hello everyone!

This thread was originally a buddy read for Klara and the Sun that happened in February 2022, but is now an official BotM for May 2022. Looking forward to seeing your thoughts!

[Aga]

Checking in to get the notifications :)

[DivaDiane]

I’ll be joining in

[E.D.]

So will I (barring any unforeseen adventures)

[MadProfessah]

I think I’m interested in this. It would be my first Ishiguro

[Bonnie]

I have down February 5 for this, and I got the book today. So I am ready!

If i really like it I may take the opportunity to read Never Let Me Go as well. It is "on the bookshelf" of my IRL group.

[Phrynne]

I will join in too. I am listening to it on audio and am about half way. It is taking ages because I am not totally motivated. Reading it with other people might get me through it!

[Christopher]

How quickly do people tend to try to read a buddy read? Trying to set the right pace.

[DivaDiane]

I’m not likely to read this in a timely fashion. Sorry, about that! So, just read at your own pace!

[Christopher]

I'm 33% through (I started a bit early to get a head start in case my progress is slower after) and just finished Part Two. Here are my thoughts on each of the first two parts:

Part One: (view spoiler)[ This started very slowly and went on longer than I might have guessed, so I was initially lukewarm to the story.
What you do get is some initial sense for the world -- maybe ours just in a future where androids with some AI are possible and also the sense that Klara might be a bit unique in her perceptiveness. (hide spoiler)]
Part Two: (view spoiler)[It got more interesting to me here. I'm curious what the deal is with Josie's family. There are hints but no definitive answers -- it seems maybe there is some process to increase intelligence but it comes at a cost of health and potentially even death? The Mother seems emotionally abusive, but we don't know the full story. The other kids were awful, but kids can be. (hide spoiler)]

[Hank, Hankenstein's Modster]

I was not going to joing this but my library hold came in at the right time. I am through Parth Three right now.

Part Two: (view spoiler)[ I agree Chris! I have tons of thoughts swirling through my head that mostly don't make sense like Munchausen syndrome, what you said about consequences of getting on "the list"
and Josie herself being some sort of advanced AI (hide spoiler)]

Part Three: (view spoiler)[ I find it interesting that Ishiguro keeps blatently reminding us that Klara is an AI instead of a learning child. Many sci-fi authors like to make their AIs as human as possible but we are reminded that Klara has somewhat primitive box like image processing and can't smell. (hide spoiler)]

Part Three:part deux (view spoiler)[ How is Klara going to help Rick with studies when she doesn't understand how the Sun works? (hide spoiler)]

[Karin]

I want to read this after seeing this thread, but am currently reading his The Remains of the Day so will hold off until another time.

[Christopher]

Re: Part Three deux: (view spoiler)[ My two initial thoughts are 1) Rick's Mom doesn't understand AF's very well and may overestimate their abilities and 2) Klara does seem able to absorb new information well, so perhaps if she had the textbooks she could then teach that material -- i.e. that she doesn't understand sun because she's a tabula rasa rather than that she is inherently unintelligent (hide spoiler)]

[Bonnie]

Part One:
I like the quiet, almost melancholy tone of the writing.
(view spoiler)[Klara seems contemplative and more observant than the other AFs.

So bittersweet how the dolls are on display, wanting something so small and so immense as to be chosen by a child, to go Home, to be loved. Remembering the book The Story of Holly and Ivy, the movie Artificial Intelligence: AI, and the Toy Story movies. (hide spoiler)]

What is the deal with the Sun, (view spoiler)[why do they call it He? Are they on Earth or is it just anywhere; are they speaking a language other than English, in which the Sun is gendered; is it a local custom like in myths; do the AFs have some particular regard for the light? That is even in the title. (hide spoiler)]

[Hank, Hankenstein's Modster]

I agree with both of those ideas Chris. Bonny I had many of the same thoughts particularly with (view spoiler)[ The movie AI (hide spoiler)] and I think some of your other questions will be answered as you read on....maybe

[Kandice]

Bonnie wrote: "Part One:
I like the quiet, almost melancholy tone of the writing.
Klara seems contemplative and more observant than the other AFs.

So bittersweet how the dolls are on display, wanting something s..."

Is this your first Ishiguro? That quiet, melancholy tone is one of the things I love about his writing. He eases you into almost horrific scenarios by using that quiet, calm voice.

As to your second question (view spoiler)[I got the impression this is earth and the reason they refer to the sun as He is because many religions refer to God as He. Not just Christianity, although that's a biggie, but many others as well. Even the religions with many Gods are usually ruled by a He. (hide spoiler)]

[Bonnie]

Kandice wrote: "As to your second question..."

The Sun
(view spoiler)[Yes, I agree, that might explain why male over female. But why not "it" for the sun? They are not worshipping it. And too modern for them to think that it is a God in a chariot like Helios or Apollo.
And, now Josie talks like that too, says "There he goes, hope he gets a good sleep." Is she just humoring Klara like you might to a child, or is something more going on?
(hide spoiler)]

[Kandice]

Bonnie wrote: "Kandice wrote: "As to your second question..."

The Sun
..."

Yes, I think she is maybe not humoring, so much as picking up verbal tendencies. That tends to happen when you are with someone a lot.

[Bonnie]

Part Two:
Becoming more intriguing as the story widens, (view spoiler)[Klara's experience in a home and the outside world. "Inclusion Parties" sound very interesting and might come to our neighborhood if this pandemic keeps up. Adults will need them to come back to work!

Agree, Mother is seeming emotionally abusive. Why would she want to "devise" ways to have Josie feel emotions? That sounds bad. She certainly seems sad about the illness though, and is warming up to Klara. (hide spoiler)]

Conjecturing: (view spoiler)["Melania Housekeeper" could be a synthetic too, that's fine. But Klara thinks that Josie gets stronger in the sunlight too, and Mother said "They have to learn we have feelings too" -- they can't all be synthetic. Unless it's a Westworld situation?
But that would not make sense for some people being "Lifted."
Several strange things going on! (hide spoiler)]

[Bonnie]

Part Three

The Sun (view spoiler)[okay, now she is worshipping the Sun! Well not praising God worship, but viewing it as having agency, a personage who can be appealed to, who can decide whether or not to bestow healing power. Maybe AFs are solar-powered so they are programmed to think that, or she can feel energy and translates that as “healing.” Maybe “sun patterns” are just shadows? Agree Hank and Chris, she is not going to be much help to Rick studying for college if she can not figure out how shadows work! Although her psych and EQ capacities seem much more advanced than a three-year-old. (hide spoiler)]

I am liking it a little less now, because (view spoiler)[ I am feeling... Manipulated? A puzzle or secret, and the bits are being parceled out to me. Which is probably the case with many books, but I want to enjoy the story naturally too, as if Klara is a real person experiencing her life, not a game construct hiding things from me. "The Bubble Game" struck me the most in that way.

I have told myself several times just to read on and let it wash over me and not "figure things out." I try, then I can't help it and start again!
Sickness, boxes, portraits, things going into the ground, inducing emotions. Are the things Klara notices normal things in the future and she doesn't understand them (or to be generous, experiences them in different context than humans do)? Or, is there something about this world that I do not understand? (hide spoiler)]

[Christopher]

My thoughts:
(view spoiler)[This is a normal future version of earth where robot technology is better and they are beginning to replace human labor (like Josie's dad). Melania is human, but an outsider as she is from another country so shares the outsider-ishness of Klara somewhat.
Klara is intelligent, but had no education and maybe intentionally was started with only a childlike level of knowledge. The sun stuff is
all just based off her observations and what other (also knowledge free) AF's told her. If you are good at finding patterns you see correlations/explanations where they don't really exist, its as though she was a primitive culture with creation myths. (hide spoiler)]

[Bonnie]

Christopher wrote: "My thoughts..."
(Part Four, partway)
I am sitting in a cafe reading and (view spoiler)[I was just thinking that exact thing. Her hopes about the sun are like a primitive tribe's religious beliefs, attribute agency and characteristics bc no advanced knowledge about the universe, just experiencing the sun passing overhead and seasons changing and weather.
What about the ground, like the bull appearing and disappearing?
(hide spoiler)]

Mr. Capaldi and the portrait: (view spoiler)[BLACK MIRROR!

https://youtu.be/aXuymDSGCko

(hide spoiler)]

[Christopher]

also:(view spoiler)[unclear if the boxes etc are demonstrations of the limits of Klara's technology (ie. when the visual field overwhelms teh tech) or if she is malfunctioning slightly (hide spoiler)]

[Bonnie]

Part Four
quotes — (view spoiler)[

‘There’s nothing there. Nothing inside Josie that’s beyond the Klaras of this world to continue. The second Josie won’t be a copy. She’ll be the exact same and you’ll have every right to love her just as you love Josie now. It’s not faith you need. Only rationality.'
....
‘Of course, a human heart is bound to be complex. But it must be limited. Even if Mr Paul is talking in the poetic sense, there’ll be an end to what there is to learn. Josie’s heart may well resemble a strange house with rooms inside rooms. But if this were the best way to save Josie, then I’d do my utmost. And I believe there’s a good chance I’d be able to succeed.’

(hide spoiler)]

I do not think there is (view spoiler)[any way the portrait plan would succeed (not far from our present world). They don't have the processing power or programming abilities to get close. The Father won't like it and won't let her come to his community, probably isn't even allowed. The Mother, even though she thinks she will love Klara, will only be pretending and she won't be able to stand it once it's a reality. Is it fair to Klara who is sentient at least, to live her life imitating a dead person? NO. Plus, there will be discrimination and segregation against the synthetic people -- sounds like the Resistance is just getting started!

See the Black Mirror TV episode 2.1, "Be Right Back." Now in that show i could accept that a grieving person would try for a synthetic version of their loved one. But that was during the raw grieving state. I'm not sure, given a couple of years, that she would have made the same choice. In this story they are planning for it ahead of time... interesting that the Father thinks that once it all happens, he is the one who will accept Klara as daughter because he has harder heart, and that his ex-wife will not be able to, even though she will try. (hide spoiler)]

Do you think Klara is reliable narrator?

[Bonnie]

Part Five

If this turns (view spoiler)[into a bunch of religious mumbo-jumbo or pseudo-New Age crap, I will be cross! (hide spoiler)]

What did this refer to? (view spoiler)[
The new store. But why in the barn? Is this something she can’t quite see again … ??

To the left of the front alcove, boxes were drifting and overlapping as if in the evening wind. I saw in several of them the flash of bright colors, and noticed they contained, even if only in the background, the bottles display I’d glimpsed in the store’s new window. The bottles were illuminated in contrasting colors, and in certain boxes I spotted also parts of the sign that said ‘Recessed Lighting’.

(hide spoiler)]

[Karen]

I just picked it up yesterday but only had time to read during lunch. It has my general interest.

[Bonnie]

Finished

Hmm, I feel somewhat let down.
(view spoiler)[I think these are supposed to be the takeaways :

* The kindness people had for Klara can not equal the love that humans have for Josie ("There was something very special, but it wasn’t inside Josie. It was inside those who loved her.") - and now Klara is outdated tech, a doll discarded in a junkyard

* God can manifest in different ways / people / time / place
("I wasn’t looking at a single picture; that in fact there existed a different version of the Sun’s face on each of the glass surfaces, and what I might at first have taken for a unified image was in fact seven separate ones superimposed one over the other as my gaze penetrated from the first sheet through to the last. Although his face on the outermost glass was forbidding and aloof, and the one immediately behind it was, if anything, even more unfriendly, the two beyond that were softer and kinder. There were three further sheets, and though it was hard to see much of them on account of their being further back, I couldn’t help estimating that these faces would have humorous and kind expressions. In any case, whatever the nature of the images on each glass sheet, as I looked at them collectively, the effect was of a single face, but with a variety of outlines and emotions.")

* Hope springs eternal in the human breast ("Perhaps the Sun was supposing that after many years, and after many changes, Josie and Rick might once again meet as the Coffee Cup Lady and Raincoat Man had done.")
... or in the simplistic musings of a naive android who doesn't understand enough to process genetic editing, classism, wealth, unemployment, aging, resentment of change, etc.

But I'm not really feeling all that deep stuff.
So a little let down. I don't see it as
great science fiction: too much unexplored or unexplained; scenarios that don't hold up
Or great story - i kept expecting more; more did not arrive
Or great literature - emotional truths that resonate, observations re the human condition.

I think this might be good for younger readers? How about YA? teens might think it's a really cool dystopian idea, get the chills, and relate to Josie and Rick? (hide spoiler)]

If you have a different reaction, present. I will try to brighten my outlook.

[Hank, Hankenstein's Modster]

I too felt underwhelmed
ending spoilers (view spoiler)[
I think both in response to Chris and Bonnie, the boxes seemd to me a limit of her technology, she kept referring to shovels as looking like ovals and other oddities. I think that this will definitely prevent the "portrait" from succeeding but maybe that is a secondary point.

I definitely got a religious mumbo jumbo vibe but chose to ignore it.

I find it impossible to reconcile the fact that the mother was ready to accept Klara as Josie and then a few years later just discarded her. I thought Capaldi was much more true to his character by still being interested in Klara after the fact.

I also could not stop thinking of this quote
"The measure of a society can be how well its people treat its animals." which I was equating to this world's AIs

(hide spoiler)]

[E.D.]

Bonnie wrote: Hmm, I feel somewhat let down.
[I think these are supposed to be the takeaways : …

Hank wrote: I too felt underwhelmed

I felt the opposite. As I read the last few pages I felt uncharacteristically emotional.
(view spoiler)[
The only other book I have read by Ishiguro is Never Let Me Go, and I feel that in this book he develops the same themes with regard to the way humanity applies ethical behaviour to artificial intelligence as he did to clones in the earlier one.

Yes, these themes have been examined many times before. However, Ishiguro does it in a very gentle way, implying the relationships between the individual players of the story rather than hitting the reader over the head with his questions. In addition, there are heavy, but not overt hints at a society on the verge of collapse due to decisions made about the use of new technology.

Klara is presented as a young child, with a child’s limited knowledge of the world and other people. By narrating the story through her eyes the author takes us on a journey of discovery and maturity made possible by Klara’s ability to learn despite her robotic origins. However, this learning is also constrained by the limits her base programming imposes on her. I view her understanding that as she is solar powered, the sun must be a god like entity as reasonable within those limits (yes I have had to suspend some disbelief).
What moved me at the end was the quiet and dignified way Klara accepts her abandonment at the yard. She displays no bitterness, and no malice is shown to her. She is after all, an artificial creation which has served its purpose. Yet despite this, we are left with the question, is she a sentient being and if so, should she be treated in such an offhand manner? The morals posed in this question could just as easily be applied to human beings treated in a similar way.

Also thrown into the mix is the question of selective education for a privileged group. This has been a subject of discussion/argument in the U.K for many decades with the issue of grammar schools for some children at eleven, based on examination performance, although the question of genetic improvement (as in being ‘lifted’) has not been thrown into the mix (yet).
(hide spoiler)]

[Kandice]

E.D. wrote: "Bonnie wrote: Hmm, I feel somewhat let down.
[I think these are supposed to be the takeaways : …

Hank wrote: I too felt underwhelmed

I felt the opposite. As I read the last few pages I felt uncha..."

We felt the very same way about this book!

[E.D.]

Kandice wrote: We felt the very same way about this book!

I'm very concerned. I'm not used to people agreeing with me.

By the way, I also agree with your comments in message 16. I felt that the book was about a near future earth, and with regard to the male gendering of the sun, senior gods have traditionally been regarded as male, earth goddess aside, so it is understandable that Klara would follow the same assumption, at least initially.

[Hank, Hankenstein's Modster]

I did like the writing and completely get the enjoyment of the sort of quiet way the story evolves and the fact that Isiguro lets you find your own message.

I just felt like he was shooting at a bunch of different themes without giving any of them enough attention to make me think.

And my rant in the spoiler is highly subjective, don't let it diminish your hapiness with the book

(view spoiler)[ My basic gripe with this novel is that nobody seems to know anything about the AIs.
Capaldi wants to crack her open to find her mysteries,
two others indulge her non-sensical ways to cure Josie,
Helen seems to think she can tutor Rick when clearly she knows far less about everything,
the teenagers treat her like a doll,
nobody seems to know about Klara's capabilities except maybe the shop owner and even then she isn't sure.
There are some references to Klara fading away with a finite life span which is supported by Klara's thoughts at the end, why?
Who makes these AIs? Are they really that disposable, if so why doesn't everyone have one?
Just about zero of Klara's existence made sense to me and I couldn't get past that in the end.
(hide spoiler)]

[Christopher]

Okay I finished -- I can see the critiques here as valid, but also can relate to the praise -- I rated it 4 stars because I felt engaged by the story and looked forward to reading more of it. The story had a definite vibe that transported me to that world. I also appreciate the various themes it brought up and the elusiveness of it all.

(view spoiler)[ I guess we don't really know if Josie just happened to get better or if we are really meant to believe the Sun did something here? One twist would be if Klara really was so observant that she noticed a sun deity that humans were oblivious to. The uplift plotline interested me and I do wonder what would happen if such a technology were available. As to the mystery of AF's perhaps the maker had serious NDA's to whoever was involved or maybe some of the AI like the ones who replaced the father were responsible so it was outside human knowledge? (hide spoiler)]

[Phrynne]

I managed to finish it too after about a month of picking it up and putting it down again. I was never engaged by the story only faintly irritated the whole time by aspects which the author introduced and never explained.
My spoiler free review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[DivaDiane]

I have finally started this (yesterday) and am already at 34% (part 2, I think, or maybe early part 3. The table of contents doesn't say anything about "parts" and I have forgotten what I heard).

I'm enjoying it quite a bit (I enjoy AI/Android/Robot stories). The writing is clear and calm, yet engaging.

He has a way of throwing something out of left-field into the mix. I've had to back up a couple of times to make sure I heard it right (I don't usually do that). The thing is, they are bizarre things and yet they get zero explanation: (view spoiler)[1. How the children are "Lifted". What does that mean? And Ricky is not? 2. What's with the boxes Klara sees?!? She sees the children's heads from the nose up in a single box at the inclusion party (and other boxes as well) and later, the mother's eyes in three little boxes. What the actual...? I'm at a complete loss to make sense of that. (hide spoiler)]

[DivaDiane]

Part 3?

So it seems that (view spoiler)[Josie's parents are divorced and her sister died of an illness even worse than hers. (hide spoiler)] That explains a little bit, but not much.

[Rachel]

I picked this up from the library maybe b/c I had noticed this buddy read?

The first section really had me engrossed- I was interested in her voice and learning.

But… getting to the house and then only interacting with a few people it started to drag for me….

[Kandice]

DivaDiane wrote: "I have finally started this (yesterday) and am already at 34% (part 2, I think, or maybe early part 3. The table of contents doesn't say anything about "parts" and I have forgotten what I heard).
..."

He always does that! He just slides some wonky, or scary piece of info in and you have to rewind, flip back to make sure you actually understood, or if not, that you know what it is you are NOT understanding!

Is this your first Ishiguro?

[Loretta]

DivaDiane wrote: "I have finally started this (yesterday) and am already at 34% (part 2, I think, or maybe early part 3. The table of contents doesn't say anything about "parts" and I have forgotten what I heard).
..."

Lots of stuff never gets fully explained (like the boxes)!! You'll have to infer through context and educated guesses.

[Kandice]

I thought the boxes were to show us that she was an earlier A.I. design. They aren't explained, you're right, but I think Ishiguro wants us to decide why we think he mentions them.

[Loretta]

Kandice wrote: "I thought the boxes were to show us that she was an earlier A.I. design. They aren't explained, you're right, but I think Ishiguro wants us to decide why we think he mentions them."
We get told early on that Klara is an earlier model and that there are more advanced models on the market that came after her, so I don't think the boxes were a necessary reminder. Perhaps they worked better as a reminder of how Klara's interface with reality differed so much from our own...?? Either way, I found them frustrating and confusing.

[Rachel]

Yeah I was thinking they were to show how differently she sees (for example the way flies see hundreds of little pictures and the brain coheres then into one?) and since Klaus does it consciously (somewhat) it gives her greater insight and let’s her see the multiple emotions that people show?

[DivaDiane]

Well, that’s a little frustrating to know the boxes are never fully explained.

Yes, this is my first Ishiguro!

[Phrynne]

DivaDiane wrote: "Well, that’s a little frustrating to know the boxes are never fully explained.

Yes, this is my first Ishiguro!"

He is rather a frustrating author Diane:)

[DivaDiane]

I supposed the boxes Klara sees are meant to be reminiscent of pixels?

[DivaDiane]

Part 3 (definitely):

As for whether Klara (or anyone else) worships the sun (The Sun?), I think it’s because the AFs are solar powered and she does not understand that Josie is not. At least, I’m assuming she’s just a regular human child (even if she *is* “lifted”).

[Anna]

(What happened to the spoiler tags?)

[Kandice]

DivaDiane wrote: "Part 3 (definitely):

As for whether Klara (or anyone else) worships the sun (The Sun?), I think it’s because the AFs are solar powered and she does not understand that Josie is not. At least, I’m ..."

I agree. Klara can't comprehend that Josie, even though she is obviously different from Klara and the other AIs, doesn't rely on the sun to live. Although, if you really think about it, we do!

[Loretta]

As for whether Klara (or anyone else) worships the sun (The Sun?), I think it’s because the AFs are solar powered and she does not understand that Josie is not. At least, I’m assuming she’s just a regular human child (even if she *is* “lifted”).

I agree. Klara can't comprehend that Josie, even though she is obviously different from Klara and the other AIs, doesn't rely on the sun to live. Although, if you really think about it, we do!

And this is part of what I couldn't really buy into (see my review!!*some spoilers* https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...). I just couldn't believe that an A.I., with superior functioning and knowledge, created (assumingly) without the bane and burden of human ego, would be, well, so dumb...?

[Aga]

I've finished the book. I liked it very much. I don't think Klara is "dumb" but she obviously lacks data. Nobody treats her like a silly child and she read only some magazines if allowed. So she uses her imagination instead and creates her own mythology. She is also worried about Josie and can't do anything to help her. I've seen many intelligent people doing and believing in crazy things because their loved ones were terminally ill.

Klara (in the first two parts) reminds me of me as an autism spectrum kid trying to figure out how humans works :) After 5 years of studying (and a master's degree) psychology, I think I get it (most of the time), hehe.

I have another problem with the book. I don't like how female characters were portrayed. They seemed irrational, weak, undecided. Klara can't do anything without Paul or Rick helping her.