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Creation vs. Evolution
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Desdemona wrote: "Hi all! I stumbled across this debate when exploring the Goodreads groups. I have just completed my degree in Earth Science, and was raised in a very secular society. This discussion is fascinati..."
Hello my new Friend! :)
Wow! It's wonderful to have someone with that degree in this debate! Thank you so much for being here! :)
I would like to share my thoughts on your questions, and I may have some questions of my own as well. And please, always know that it is being done very respectfully... :) and I respect your views even if it varies with mine... :)
First, the 6,000 years are calculations from the age and times of the people mentioned in the Bible, so, we based our argument in that regard on people... not rocks.
Second, the age of Rocks? If you are a Believer of an Omnipotent God, the age of Rocks is not as important, because when God said "Let there be..." and it was so. And rocks are part of the earth, which was created in its original form, like the plants, animals, and birds... they did not evolved or developed from simple to complex creatures, but appeared as they are when they were created- mature and at their "age" already, then changes happened as time and sin entered the Creation. So, when you give an age to a Rock, maybe you can, but if you are a creationist like me, you can say that God created a millions years old Rock and included it on the earth. ( i hope I make sense to an earth science expert, and did not complicate things more) :)
Third, there are technologies today that are amazing! And most of them function in a precise and perfect manner, but with regards to dating minerals and geological formations, I doubt their accuracy. Here's why I can say that it takes more faith to believe in evolution than the Bible, because, how can a Technology that was built just a while ago (say, 1,000 years or just more recently) claim an age of millions of years? As the book of Job said, "Where were you when I formed the earth?" If true science begins with Observations and not Beliefs, how can anyone claim something he did not see? for example, a million year old mammoth? So, when it comes to technology, I observed that science only discovers the nature that was created by God: rocks, minerals, animals, man, etc. I read a book a few years ago, that carbon dating failed terribly when they tested the bones of an elephant that just died and the reading of the carbon dating was a few million years. Now, how can one say that these modern technology is more accurate with regards to dating? And that include groundwater, rocks, isotopes, radiometric and geochemical tracers... I believe that the Bible is still more accurate than these invented machineries. And I mean no offense to you my Friend... :)
Fourth, with regards to fossils, sediments, and geological columns, I should say I agree with the flood arguments by Carsie and Lilyyy... :)
Now, my questions:
1. Do you believe that "with God, nothing is impossible"?
2. How did "life" evolve? our consciousness...thoughts...feelings?
3. Why the "missing link" is still missing with these technologies?
4. Heaven and Hell are not scientific especially "Earth Science", have you given any thought about it?
These are heart-deep questions my Friend that I hope you will give a thought... because I believe that beyond these visible earth, there is Someone invisible and most powerful of Whom we will give account at the appointed time... and the Bible is HIS Word for us.
Thank you so much for bearing with me... :)
I hope I make sense :)
Carsie wrote: "Hey Desdemona. I also love and am amazed by science, and many things in this world. I'm not going to pressure you into my religion. Not at all. But I just want to say that God's love and truth is..."
I actually really appreciate this. It's a lovely sentiment. Thank you!
Arniegamilong wrote: "1. Do you believe that "with God, nothing is impossible"? 2. How did "life" evolve? our consciousness...thoughts...feelings?
3. Why the "missing link" is still missing with these technologies?
4. Heaven and Hell are not scientific especially "Earth Science", have you given any thought about it?"
Hi!! This is very thoughtful and informative message, thank you. I will do my best to answers these questions….. as concisely as I can. It’s not super sciency - mostly my opinions. Unfortunately it got long, I’m sorry! :)
When I first engaged with these debates, I never really thought I could change anyone’s minds. But my main goal was to introduce some new ideas to people that maybe hadn’t considered the implications of Biblical truth. What does this really mean for our planet? Is it possible?
I have since learnt from our discussions that whether or not it is ‘possible’ is irrelevant - God said it is so, so it is - and as you have said “with God, nothing is impossible”. I agree with this statement! While I remain an atheist, I think I can better understand the deep and meaningful position of a believer thanks to this forum.
I often obsess about how life came to be. Again, an answer that could be solved by religion, but that I chose to solve using science. I will try to answer this as briefly as I can……. I’ve read quite a bit to try solve this problem. But this is not my field of expertise by any means - it’s still a crazy big concept. We don’t know a lot about it.
Entropy (moving from order to disorder) is an inherent part of our universe - life involved because it was a more efficient way to transfer energy. Light (energy) comes in from the sun and hits the Earth. This energy interacts with molecules, and molecules engage in chemical reactions - life eventually evolves as the most efficient way to facilitate these chemical reactions. Life was initially VERY simple - we’re talking single cells. As life continued to form more efficient ways to transfer energy, it seeks more complex organisms (https://phys.org/news/2008-12-life.html). Consciousness emerges as a way to keep these more complex organisms alive for longer (intelligence, drive to seek food, fear). Feelings ultimately just keep us alive - they’re remnants of when being angry/scared could mean life or death.
I think the idea of a missing link is a bit of a myth perpetuated by the media because it makes a good headline. It’s thought that we share many common ancestors, not just a single missing one. (Again, not my area of expertise). If you google it, the general consensus is that a single missing link doesn’t exist - we really just need to continue to build our fossil records. Good fossils are very rare. Technologies are helpful because they actually can be used to eliminate findings (eg. fossil is not from the right time to be a ‘missing link’), not just confirm them. :)
I have some thoughts on Heaven and Hell! Believe it or not, I actually have a Christian extended family and have received CRE (Christian Religious Education). While I don’t literally believe in either, I have seen how important the concept of Heaven is to others, especially upon someone’s death. I don’t think anything happens after we die (I believe consciousness just stops), but I know that Heaven has stopped many of my loved ones fearing death. And upon their death I took comfort in knowing that they were in Heaven. I think Heaven can be a helpful and calming concept. I’m not a fan of the idea of ‘bad’ people going to Hell. I know this can create a lot of fear in Christians - I have friends/family who left the faith because it became very difficult and overwhelming. With respect, I prefer us to sort out the bad people on Earth. :)
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2. How did "life" evolve? our consciousness...thoughts...feelings?
3. Why the "missing link" is still missing with t..."
First of all, I just wanted to say welcome! I don't believe I've met you yet, and it's wonderful to have a person who believes in evolution debating this topic.
I'm actually very passionate about this topic, as personally I believe it's impossible to believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior without believing in Genesis also.
I'm sure you know this already, but I'll just clarify that Genesis is how (many) Christians believe the world came to be. I.e., God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in six days, and saw that it was good.
As such, I'm very passionate about the creation/evolution debate, and so fair warning! If anything I say comes across as offensive or hurtful, please tell me as that is not my intent. I simply want to show you my point of view (which is similar to many of the others presented here already), and I want to learn about yours as well.
If I misrepresent something you believe, tell me. I often make the mistake of thinking that I know everything that evolutionists believe and that is obviously not true. :)
So I'm going to open my own can of worms here:
1) What do you think about the Christian world-wide flood?
2) How old do you personally believe the earth is?
3) Do you think there is such a thing as absolute truth and absolute morality? If so, where does it come from? If not, why do you think everyone sees things such as murder and stealing as wrong?
4) Do you think that single-cell organisms are simple? (I know you said you find biology boring, so I won't make you debate this a whole bunch, I'm just curious to know your opinion!)
If you have any questions for me, I'd be happy to answer those as well.
So, I believe in Creation and that God made everything in six days. I've never been sure whether or not it was a literal six days of maybe a longer period of time. I do believe in a young earth, I think the world is maybe 10,000 years old possibly younger. I feel like it takes more faith to believe in evolution than it takes to believe that an all powerful being created everything from nothing with His own power. Evolution seems to have so many holes in it.Why do human reproduce?
Why are there still monkeys?
How come we've never seen evolution happen?
Why can't we find any fossils that show the transition between ape and human?
Why was a dinosaur bone found that still has tissue I side it when the monster was supposed to be dead for millions of years?
Denali wrote: "Desdemona wrote: "Arniegamilong wrote: "1. Do you believe that "with God, nothing is impossible"? 2. How did "life" evolve? our consciousness...thoughts...feelings?
3. Why the "missing link" is st..."
Hi Denali! Thank you for acknowledging that views vary amongst Christians - I can say that all Christians I know (extended family and friends) believe in evolution. That’s why these conversations have been fascinating for me!
1) What do you think about the Christian world-wide flood?
I’ve answered this previously if you scroll up. :) In summary I do not believe it possible because of the global water budget, rock cycle (formation of sedimentary rocks), and quantitative groundwater analyses.
2) How old do you personally believe the earth is?
I believe the earth is approx. 4.5 billion years old, as this is the scientific consensus. (Very old and it blows my mind!!)
3) Do you think there is such a thing as absolute truth and absolute morality? If so, where does it come from? If not, why do you think everyone sees things such as murder and stealing as wrong?
Interesting question! I have had many discussions about this with my peers, as many people will say morality must come from God. I’m not entirely sure what you mean by ‘absolute’ (would love an explanation of this in context of Christianity!). I can say that I believe our perceptions of morality/truth are relative and based on societal standards.
Throughout history and cultures we can see different standards for what is ‘moral’ and ‘right’. I personally believe that we perceive murder and stealing as wrong as it 1. threatens our wellbeing and 2. threatens the stability of society. Our instincts tell us these are both not good for us or our community (which we need to survive).
4) Do you think that single-cell organisms are simple? (I know you said you find biology boring, so I won't make you debate this a whole bunch, I'm just curious to know your opinion!)
Hmmmm….. in my opinion (no googling haha) I believe they are certainly simpler than we are!! Although compared to an inorganic molecule, they could be considered complex! I would once again say this is relative.
Book wrote: "So, I believe in Creation and that God made everything in six days. I've never been sure whether or not it was a literal six days of maybe a longer period of time. I do believe in a young earth, I ..."I completely agree that the Bible provides a much more straight forward and clear explanation. However, this does not mean it is correct. If you find something difficult to understand, I encourage you to explore the concept rather than dismiss it - so I love to see you asking questions! :)
1. Why do human reproduce?
A great question!! And probably one we will be asking for a long time. It’s important to remember that our bodies are made for reproduction, just like all life. Life needs to reproduce in order to continue its replication of molecules - thus continuing the energy gradient I explained in an early message. As life continues to reproduce, it refines the gene pool and evolves. That’s why we’re humans now, and not the single celled organisms that we once were. Human reproduction is the continuation of billions of years of evolution.
2. Why are there still monkeys?
Homo Sapiens (modern humans) are not monkeys. While we once shared common ancestors with monkeys, we first branched off from other apes millions of years ago (https://theconversation.com/when-huma...). When we branched off, monkeys and humans evolved separately. Just like humans today have evolved, monkeys have also evolved.
3. How come we've never seen evolution happen?
We can see evidence of evolution in fossil records (which we date using radiometric dating – I have explained these in previous posts). It is generally an extremely slow process, so difficult to observe over human lifespans/timescales. But we have seen recent evolution – for example, moths in Britain during the 19th century changed from lighter colouring to darker colouring as air pollution changed the colour of trees. I encourage you to Google “evidence of modern evolution” – there are many, many examples, including amongst modern humans (Us)! :)
The theory of evolution is a work in progress. It is widely accepted in science that it is not a perfect explanation, and will always need further refinement! There is overlap between species and many dead ends in the evolutionary tree. Over 99% of all species that have ever existed on earth are now extinct.
4. Why can't we find any fossils that show the transition between ape and human?
We have found transitional fossils – these are known as early humans (existed before Homo Sapiens), but it’s true we are still missing many pieces of this puzzle. These humans include Homo Neanderthals, and Homo Erectus. (https://www.newscientist.com/article/...).
There are many other examples of transitional fossils – but this is well outside of my realm of knowledge and expertise. I encourage you to google “transitional fossils between ape and human”. :)
5. Why was a dinosaur bone found that still has tissue I side it when the monster was supposed to be dead for millions of years?
If you can find a mainstream news source that reports this, I’d be happy to discuss.
I noticed that not too many of y'all answered the dinosaur queston, so here's an answer; they took the dinos on the Ark as babies, or maybe even eggs, as that would still align with what they were commanded. This may also make sense for other predators that had to have been on board. But if these were the ...intense creatures that we have depicted today, it would make sense for people to kill them off at some point, maybe after, maybe before, as they could pose a ginormous threat to society. I noticed some of you brought up unicorns, and while I personally believe that's a myth, something along those lines could go for them, as well. This is a bit of a sidenote, but I find it interesting how we don't know exactly what dinosaurs looked like. Most of the dinosaurs from such a prevelant thing as the Jurassic Park franchise are believed to be inaccurate depictions. I don't know about you, but that's what I base dinosaurs off of in my head lol. The skeletons are certainly frightening and showy, but I recommend looking at the skeletons (especially skulls *shudders*) of things like sheep, walruses, stingrays, rhinos, bats, saber-toothed cats, arctodus simuses (very similar to bears), warthogs, nutria, killer whales, pythons, platypuses (or platypodes), deer, owls, owl monkeys, dolphins, sloths, and penguins... I totally didn't just write this so you guys could see cool skeletons. Totally.
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2. How did "life" evolve? our consciousness...thoughts...feelings?
3. Why the "miss..."
Hi Desdemona!
Sorry it took me so long to respond. I honestly forgot the topic existed...
Hmm that's really interesting! Most of my Christian friends and family actually believe in young-earth Creation, so this is something new for me! I know that there are Christians who believe in evolution, I've just never met any personally.
1) Ah, I shall have to go read that. Sorry to bother you with a question you already answered! :) I'm going to go read your earlier posts and I'll probably come back and butt heads with you on it later, if you don't mind. :)
2) Good to know. Okay, you may have already answered this, and if you have, forgive me. This also may seem like a slightly dumb question, but I'm asking it so I can debate you a bit better. What evidence have you personally seen that would seem to say the earth is 4.5 billion years old? I'm a team policy debater, so I like seeing evidence! :)
3) You mentioned that you weren't clear on what I meant by absolute truth and morality. Sorry about that, I seem to be using ambiguous words a lot recently... Basically, what I mean by this is, do you believe that there is an overarching morality that everyone has, and do you believe that it is possible for there to be one singular truth in a world that has come from chaos? (if that still wasn't clear, just let me know as I'm aware my thoughts can get a bit jumbled at times).
I'm actually going to wait to respond to the second half or your answer here where you were talking about where you believe morality comes from as I'm very tired right now and thus my response at the moment would make little to no sense. ;) As long as I remember the topic exists, I'll respond in a couple of days!
4) Haha I would definitely agree there. The one thing is, though, single-cell organisms are still pretty complex. Considering we as scientists struggle to get anything more than a few toxic amino acids under perfect conditions to appear from nothing, I'm curious to know: how do you think that life actually came into being? Are you on the single-cell organism train? Or perhaps a different one I haven't heard a whole lot about? Or do you generally not care because biology isn't your thing? XD
Thanks for debating with me and I'll be back on to continue the morality debate when I'm less foggy-headed! :)
Who here who doesn't believe in evolution believes in the big bang? I don't really have a solid opinion myself, I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks.
Alison wrote: "Who here who doesn't believe in evolution believes in the big bang? I don't really have a solid opinion myself, I'm just wondering what everyone else thinks."Idk, some Christians consider God's creation of light the big bang
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Ooh! This is interesting! I love the skeleton thing... Like search up a H. amphibius (a.k.a. hippo) skeleton and it looks hideous, like some monster out of a fantasy world! But in real life, it's not too bad. It's bad if it's trying to bite you, but hippos are definitely not posing a threat to society and they don't look anywhere near as scary as their bones do.
This is a bit of a sidenote, but I find it interesting how we don't know exactly what dinosaurs looked like. Most of the dinosaurs from such a prevelant thing as the Jurassic Park franchise are believed to be inaccurate depictions.
There's actually a Babylonian gate with carving of what they called 'dragons.' And I think the Bible has some descriptions too.
Speaking of skeletons, did you know that turtles aren't actually inside their shell? They are their shell!
There's actually a Babylonian gate with carving of what they called 'dragons.' And I think the Bible has some descriptions too.
Speaking of skeletons, did you know that turtles aren't actually inside their shell? They are their shell!
Good grief you were right about skeletons. The sloth is positively freaky.
Concinnous wrote: "Good grief you were right about skeletons. The sloth is positively freaky."Indeed
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I support God's creation of the earth in 7 Days
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It is true that we are bias. Our brain IS wired to follow God though, but because we have a sin nature, we don't always follow through with it. God created us to glorify Him. :)