Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Stoker, Dracula
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Week 3 - Dracula, Chapters 9-11
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Tamara wrote: "David wrote: "Ghosts and vampires are never only about ghosts and vampires.Foster, Thomas C.. How to Read Literature Like a Professor.Ta..."
LOL. I guess it must be my 20 years as a professor of ..."
I once heard that looking for inexistent deeper meanings is an occupational disorder for literature professors :)
Emil wrote: "I once heard that looking for inexistent deeper meanings is an occupational disorder for literature professors :)..."Guilty as charged!
I've been undergoing therapy for decades to cure me of this ailment with no success yet. But I remain hopeful :)
David wrote: "At this point in the story I think it is safe assume all but the captain aboard The Demeter as male victims.."Do we know that for sure? I was under the impression they had freaked out and jumped overboard. I think the captain said something to that effect--that he tied himself down so he wouldn't throw himself into the sea like his crew.
Tamara wrote: "David wrote: "At this point in the story I think it is safe assume all but the captain aboard The Demeter as male victims.."Do we know that for sure? I was under the impression they had freaked o..."
It was not explicitly stated, and there is no description of any wounds on the captain's throat. The Captain thought it was the mate who went mad who thew the men overboard one by one
It was this madman who had got rid of the men one by one, and now he has followed them himself.It was only at the end when he was the only one left that he spotted Dracula and took measures to protect himself.
. . .I dared not leave the helm; so here all night I stayed, and in the dimness of the night I saw It—Him! God forgive me, but the mate was right to jump overboardI do not know how long Dracula can go without feeding, but a month long voyages seems a long time to go without at least a snack. If Dracula could go a month without blood, he could have just stayed hidden in his box.
I'm on Team Tamara & Emil when it comes to DQ!!!!
Tamara wrote: "I'm looking forward to seeing if all of Dracula's victims are women (assuming he does have other victims). If so, are they all attractive and vulnerable like Lucy? And if that is the case, I will d..."Yes, that will be interesting to see if all the victims in this novel are women. I know in other iterations of Vampire stories that's not true, since how do all those men become Vampires. One has to be turned or "sired" by a vampire to become one according to the lore.
addition: as I was running errands I realized I must have had a synaptic disconnect when writing the above. The female vampires certainly could "turn" men. That would certainly fit with the idea of the vampire bites & taking of the life blood as seduction that works for both genders.
Emil wrote: "Jen wrote: "I think one of the reasons a book can become a part of the canon is not because it's good - Don Quixote is nearly unreadable....."Stating that "Don Quixote is unreadable" here is as d..."
I said what I said. Take another "classic" - modern or otherwise you find unreadable as your example if you don't like mine.
And I like Love's Labour's Lost.
Anyway, my point was that many books become classics or part of the canon because of their influence on the culture, not because they are great works that should be held sacred by future generations at the expense of more modern works.
Jen wrote: "Anyway, my point was that many books become classics or part of the canon because of their influence on the culture, not because they are great works that should be held sacred by future generations at the expense of more modern works...."Sam was talking earlier about H.G. Wells, I feel the same about his works. Many of them are far from being literary masterpieces but his novels and short stories are so influential that each of them spawned a Sci-Fi subgenre.
Anyway, I feel that Dracula is much more than "just an influential novel"
This is definitely more than that:
White, wet clouds, which swept by in ghostly
fashion, so dank and damp and cold that it needed but little effort
of imagination to think that the spirits of those lost at sea were
touching their living brethren with the clammy hands of death, and
many a one shuddered as the wreaths of sea-mist swept by.
Emil wrote: "David wrote: "blood groups weren’t discovered until 1901, and transfusions had been performed prior to Dracula’s publication date, so most readers at the time would have gone along with it..."Blo..."
I had wondered about the 3 transfusions too, of course, and thinking that i must look up where the science was at with transfusions in Stokers time, so appreciate seeing it discussed.
David wrote: "Speaking of transfusions, this entry from Dr. Seward is rich in painful awkwardness.No man knows till he experiences it, what it is to feel his own life-blood drawn away into the veins of the wo..."
an attempt at romance?
Borum wrote: "I've donated blood (being the ever popular O+) a dozen times and although it's impersonal and I don't know who's gonna get my blood.. it's still a satisfying experience to see my blood slowly pumping out and getting collected in the blood bag (is that weird?) for someone in need."I have a friend who donates blood as often as allowed and thinks it super important and seems pretty chuffed with himself, tries to talk others into doing it too. His wife is a doctor which may have some relevance, he is a drummer which likely has no relevance.
Jen wrote: "I think one of the reasons a book can become a part of the canon is not because it's good - Don Quixote is nearly unreadable.."Tamara wrote: Don Quixote unreadable? I don't want to engage in a lengthy discussion of this because it is off topic, but since you brought it up, I think DQ is not only highly readable but it is one of the greatest novels that's ever been written."
I am seriously more than overdue for a re-visit but seem to recall I was given it to read it as a < 12 year old and, from memory, I found it odd but definitely readable.
That's a problem with reading lists from schooldays. They want us to read from The Canon, but we are really children in the scheme of things, and most of the serious literature requires at least some lived experience. Dare I say, some suffering? What if I recall my experience reading, say, Jane Austen, from Junior High School. I should hardly be expected to have even a vague inkling of what was going on. Or, my favorite, Moby Dick.
I think DQ was seminal to the very novel itself. Picaresque. And very early. Do you all think "Tristram Shandy" is "readable" by say, a sixteen year old?
Lisa wrote: "I am seriously more than overdue for a re-visit but seem to recall I was given it to read it as a < 12 year old..."I also read it for the first time at around 10 or 11. After being completely hooked by the first four chapters, I was a bit mystified and bored by all of the letters and diaries but managed to skim through the rest of it and found enough interesting parts to keep me going. I read it with a little more attention a couple more times before hitting college. Now, while moderating it here I am reading it closer than ever and It prompts me to wonder if and when it is going to stop getting better.
i don't understand:"assume all but the captain aboard The Demeter as male victims...." The captain IS male. Do you mean he is not a victim of D? Also there is the old sea salt on the cemetery bench, Swales. And is Jonathan Harker a victim? Is Lucy not a victim until she dies?I don't recall this thing that a vampire can make someone a vampire, from this book. I learned it from Buffy, but so far I haven't learned it from Stoker. Did I miss that part? I am prepared to be enlightened.
Oh and speaking of professorial obsessions, mine is History, which has to be got from written stories, like Literature.
Sam wrote: "i don't understand:"assume all but the captain aboard The Demeter as male victims...." The captain IS male. Do you mean he is not a victim of D? Also there is the old sea salt on the cemetery bench..."From the log of the Demeter we are told the crew of nine were all men.
On 14 July was somewhat anxious about crew. Men all steady fellows, who sailed with me before.It depends on how we define victim. If we just mean their death was a result of Dracula being on board, they all nine were victims. But If victim entails being bitten by Dracula, then we cannot be certain. The captain appears to have died of exposure with his crucifix in hand, and we know the mate voluntarily jumped overboard. The remainder of the crew members were just reported missing. There are no descriptions of wounds or bite marks. While we might be tempted to conclude as the newspaper did that Of course the verdict was an open one., I would have to think a vampire needs to keep his strength up somehow if he is going to shroud the ship in fog and manipulate the storm to blow it into a narrow harbor to ground. Either way, it is a nice mystery that Stoker seeds our own imaginations with to scare us.
David, I agree, it is getting increasingly better.
Sam wrote: "I think DQ was seminal to the very novel itself. Picaresque. And very early. Do you all think "Tristram Shandy" is "readable" by say, a sixteen year old?"Yes, that's the thing: Don Quixote is widely considered to be the first real novel, so it's part of the canon. Some people who really like the classics enough to join a long-running discussion group on Goodreads consider it to be one of their favourite novels of all time. But if I was trying to motivate kids to get into reading, or teenagers to make reading a life-long habit, I wouldn't start there, or anywhere near it. I would probably include it in a Great Books college course.
Dracula, with the blood and the jump scares and the ships full of dead people, would probably be much more accessible to most readers, especially if they're into the many vampire TV shows and book series that are popular right now. It would be especially fun with such a group to trace the lore from their favourite media back to this book.
Do we need to make a distinction between how D kills his victims and why he is killing them? Dracula may be indirectly or directly responsible for the deaths of the crew either because he freaked them out and they jumped into the sea or because he killed them and threw them overboard. We aren't told how or why they disappeared. We get only speculation from the captain.
We know there were no bite marks on the captain. And Swales died of a broken neck--no bite marks. And Jonathan survives his ordeal with Dracula with an "unbitten" neck.
D killed (directly or indirectly) the crew and the old man because they got in his way and/or knew too much. But Lucy is the only victim we know of with certainty whose blood is being depleted to quench D's thirst for blood. I'm wondering what--if anything--to make of this.
And another thing :) The three vampires who wanted to dig their teeth into Jonathan were all females and would have done so if D hadn't stopped them. So now I'm wondering if vampires will kill anyone who gets in the way, but they can only be nourished by sucking the blood of someone who is of the opposite sex.
I guess it remains to be seen.
Jen wrote: "It would be especially fun with such a group to trace the lore from their favourite media back to this book."For all of the vampire lore seekers out there, week 5 of our discussions will be the most enlightening, specifically chapters 16 and 18. I am predicting there may be a shocking surprise to discuss later this week in lucky chapter 13.
Tamara wrote: "Do we need to make a distinction between how D kills his victims and why he is killing them? Dracula may be indirectly responsible for the deaths of the crew either because he freaked them out an..."
But also the idea that a vampire is walking among them is a completely alien thought to all the characters except Van Helsing. Mina thinks she accidentally pricked Lucy with a pin, and then Lucy starts wearing a ribbon around her neck to hide the wounds. I can't imagine that 19th century sailors were the type to sit around complaining about a scratch on their necks that isn't healing, and they often would have already been wearing scarves. But we don't yet know enough if biting is only for people he wants to turn, or if he just drains people around him somehow, whether it's your physical or emotional energy and most people end up dying either way.
Jen said: But if I was trying to motivate kids to get into reading, or teenagers to make reading a life-long habit, I wouldn't start there, or anywhere near it.I don't think I'd start them with an adult discussion group of The Western Canon, either. Nor would I start them with Dracula. It's nightmare stuff.
Sorry to be inconsistent: "Tale of Two Cities" gave me nightmares in Eighth Grade.
Sam wrote: "I don't think I'd start them with an adult discussion group of The Western Canon, either. Nor would I start them with Dracula. It's nightmare stuff."I will take that as another point in favor of Dracula being a great book, it is effective for more than one level of reading.
David wrote: "Sam wrote: "I don't think I'd start them with an adult discussion group of The Western Canon, either. Nor would I start them with Dracula. It's nightmare stuff."I will take that as another point ..."
Must admit to a slight creeping feeling going up to bed last night after inadvertently continuing through to end of Chapter 13. We have no curtains due to being in the bush and having amazing views to wake to, but, despite the feeling of disquiet, I can, with relief, reliably report I saw no bats or wolves out in the dark.
Lisa wrote: "David wrote: "Speaking of transfusions, this entry from Dr. Seward is rich in painful awkwardness.No man knows till he experiences it, what it is to feel his own life-blood drawn away into the ve..."
Lisa wrote: "adding a touch of romance?"
Thinking more about this, the three transfusions ... and in the vein that this is a vampire story ... it is a bit as if Lucy has fed upon all three of them.
*pun noted but unintended
Sam wrote: "That's a problem with reading lists from schooldays. They want us to read from The Canon, but we are really children in the scheme of things, and most of the serious literature requires at least some lived experience. Dare I say, some suffering? What if I recall my experience reading, say, Jane Austen, from Junior High School. I should hardly be expected to have even a vague inkling of what was going on. Or, my favorite, Moby Dick."
Agree even in the books designated for children ie Water Babies, there were concepts that we could not have grasped. Still, I wonder if many of the books of my father's I picked up and read, impacted me in some formative way. For some books, (ie To Kill a Mockingbird) I do remember skimming past the bits I couldn't understand, or relate to due to my age, so as to get on with what must have been well written stories.
I think that putting The Canon on high school reading lists could be okay if the discussions were well led and conversations that drew readers out as they progressed would be advantageous, as David has done so well here with Dracula.
But my memory is more being told to read a particular book and then write a formulaic analysis.
Moby Dick ... another I need to revisit.
But we are probably wandering off the Dracula topic here. Don Quixote started it all :)
haha Don Quixote started it all :) but speaking of Melville, one really scary short story about a ship that pulls into the harbor with all dead men, that's "Benito Cereno." But, yes, back to Drac....
I'm not afraid to say it: I abandoned Don Quixote halfway through when this group read it a couple of years ago. I was amused for awhile, then utterly lost interest. As for Dracula, thanks to Emil for quoting that particularly beautiful passage. I would argue it's an outlier. One thing Stoker is doing that's simply bad writing is a no-no from Creative Writing 101: Skip the unnecessary chit chat and get to the actual scene. He spends an awful lot of time making us listen to the characters say hello and fill each other in on things we already know.
I'm not complaining overall. I'm collecting some gems to share in a later discussion...
David wrote: "Sam wrote: "I don't think I'd start them with an adult discussion group of The Western Canon, either. Nor would I start them with Dracula. It's nightmare stuff."I will take that as another point in favor of Dracula being a great book, it is effective for more than one level of reading ..."
I was 12 when I first read Dracula & I've enjoyed it, it was definitely not "nightmare stuff". Hugo's "Les Miserables" was nightmare stuff for me at 12...
Now I'm reading Dracula after more than 20 years and it's like when you visit a place you used to see as a child and you think it has changed so much, but it's you the one who really changed.
Sorry I missed the TS discussion. I loved that book, but it was very hard reading. And I favor DQ. read some of it in Spanish.
I read Tristram Shandy in graduate school and found it unreadable at the time. I re-read it with this group and absolutely loved it. I thought it was funny and clever and a lot of fun. I'd like to think i enjoyed it this time around because I'm older and wiser than I was in grad. school and not fretting about it showing up in my prelim exams. But if I were to be totally honest, I would have to give much of the credit for my change of heart to David who did an absolutely fabulous job moderating the discussion.
Tamara wrote: "I read Tristram Shandy in graduate school and found it unreadable at the time. I re-read it with this group and absolutely loved it."Thanks, Tamara. I wasn't quite sure was I was getting into with Tristram Shandy. It does require some effort that pays off in a rich and rewarding experience that generated some great discussions on here. Like a lot of books this group reads, now including Dracula, I hope to read TS here again sometime.
I would love to reread Tristram Shandy. I read it in college and found it hard to wrap my head around the humor coming from something packaged as "high literature."
Kathy wrote: "I would love to reread Tristram Shandy."Kathy, If you find you cannot wait for the group to reread Tristram Shandy, when and if that ever is, please feel free to follow our recent 2019-20 discussion. Since we keep all of our previous discussions open, you may post your own comments; I am sure a few members here, myself included, would be happy to continue discussing it.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...
David wrote: "Kathy wrote: "I would love to reread Tristram Shandy."Kathy, If you find you cannot wait for the group to reread Tristram Shandy, when and if that ever is, please feel free to follow our recent 2..."
Uh, huh! Was thinking about the revisiting of that thing again myself -- just this morning, in fact. (My contrast was with the people willing to spend their time reading someone like Kristin Hannah - a popular storyteller, but without integrity, imnsho.)
Great suggestion, David. Though I have to at least finish the 6 books I'm currently reading first LOL!
At this point in the story I think it is safe assume all but the captain aboard The Demeter as male victims.