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I’ve been thinking about how this story is set close to the New Year (is it New Year’s Eve when the story starts, I’m not certain?) and what that time of year meant for Victorians. I believe “A Christmas Carol” helped start Christmas traditions for Victorians, but they already had New Years traditions when Dickens was writing “The Chimes”. (At least my quick google search indicates Victorians had new year traditions).Ringing of the bells at midnight to ward off evil and ring in good was one tradition which seems important to this story. Phantom balls, and matchmaking was another. How does that tradition of matchmaking tie in with Meg and Richard wanting to get married, and the negative reaction of Alderman Cute to their engagement? Are the poor not allowed the same traditions as the middle and upper classes?
There is a definite class distinction, Bridget.
Bridget wrote: "Richard wanting to get married, and the negative reaction of Alderman Cute to their engagement? Are the poor not allowed the same traditions as the middle and upper classes?..."My impression was that they're allowed the same traditions.
It seems to me Cute is just blaming the poor for not having enough money by suggesting they're squandering resources on weddings, children, family, etc, and other "frivolities." Kind of the way politicians sometimes talk about how the poor have too many children and are irresponsible for having children they don't have enough to feed, etc.
Not sure I read it correctly though. That's just what I remember thinking when I read that part.
Bridget wrote: "Ringing of the bells at midnight to ward off evil and ring in good was one tradition which seems important to this story. Phantom balls, and matchmaking was another...."Interesting Bridget! I feel like I've seen some of these things in stories, but I hadn't put it together.
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"When the word first appeared in English in 1731, it was a shortened form of acute, the adjective meaning “shrewd,” “keen,” or “clever.” It even had its own opening apostrophe—‘cute—to let you know it had been clipped.
A “cute remark” back in Victorian England was a quick-witted one. So was the “cute man” in Dickens’ 1841 book Barnaby Rudge. And so was a cute girl. In 1882, the Manchester Evening Mail ran a piece defending the typical American young woman as being just “as cute as the masculine Yankee,” by which it meant she was equally sharp and spirited."
I hadn't even thought of looking into the archaic English usage! A contemporary dictionary gave the "dainty, pretty" definition and said that the alternative meaning was "North American usage"! Plus I know it's never been used with that sense in England within my lifetime.
So now it's clear that Charles Dickens did intend 'cute to indicate a shrewdness about Alderman Cute! What a shame that the apostrophe wasn't there ... but his older readers would pick up on that implication, and all his American readers too :) Sorry to mislead anyone!
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As I was reading this, I couldn't help compare Cute and his ilk to the men canvassing Scrooge for a worthy cause in a Christmas Carol.The two stories, The Chimes and A Christmas Carol, are like the two sides of a coin.
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The Chimes is based in a good part on Thomas Carlyle's philosophy, especially in how many times Charles Dickens rails against the sort of "cant" talked by Alderman Cute, Mr. Filer and Mr. Worthy. Charles Dickens portrays a lot of hypocritical do-gooders in his stories - there are a couple of priceless examples in the next novel we'll read, Bleak House!
Having said that, I think the 2 worthy gentlemen canvassing Scrooge in A Christmas Carol may have been well-intentioned and kinder, hopefully! They aren't really quite as central, so it's hard to tell.
Charles Dickens is far more bitter and savage about the hypocritical officials in The Chimes, and gives us a much more sardonic portrayal:
"I have tried to strike a blow upon that part of the brass countenance of wicked Cant, when such a compliment is sorely needed at the time"
and writing to someone else:
"I have endeavoured to plant an indignant right-hander on the eye of certain wicked Cant that makes my blood boil, which I hope will not only cloud that eye with black and blue, but many a gentle one with crystal of the finest sort ... I think there are good things in the little story!"
Charles Dickens doesn't mince his words! It's clear that in this novel Charles Dickens is appealing to society to consider the lot of the poor. But unusually, he's also appealing to the poor to believe in themselves, and their class. Trotty Veck at this point has no such belief, or self-confidence, and assumes "his betters" are quite right to insult him (and take his dinner!) We hope for a change :)
Trotty's attitude to his "betters" is exemplified in The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists by Robert Tressell. I finally read it this past year and found it well worth reading.
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I think you probably know more about Thomas Carlyle than I do Greg!
But it's his use of the word "cant" here. Charles Dickens and Thomas Carlyle were both controversial social commentators. Charles Dickens admired Thomas Carlyle greatly, and cultivated his friendship, although by all accounts his admiration and respect for the historian and philosopher wasn't really reciprocated.
Charles Dickens only wrote 2 historical novels, but because he'd been criticised for errors in Barnaby Rudge, he wanted to make sure he got everything right for A Tale of Two Cities, and carried Thomas Carlyle's huge tome of The French Revolution: A History (1837) everywhere he went! I forget now how long this was for - he wrote about it to his friend John Forster - but I think it was for a year or more.
So it's the broad social polices, and treatment of the poor they had in common. I had no idea about the Nazis! I don't know the work you mention, but an influential one was On Heroes, Hero Worship and the Heroic in History, which sounds similar. Perhaps the Nazis selected bits and misapplied them? I do know we nearly didn't get The French Revolution: A History, because a maid threw it on the fire, and Thomas Carlyle had to write it all again! Thus we may never have got A Tale of Two Cities either, I suppose.
Both were intolerant of any sort of ritual and ceremony. Thomas Carlyle was brought up a strict Calvinist, and when we read Pictures from Italy, we saw how Charles Dickens was utterly scathing about some of what he saw as meaningless ritual, and pretentious ceremonies, and particularly the rich priests who were involved in them. He found it ridiculous - but stressed that it was not the Catholic faith that he objected to. He respected the faith and its believers. It was the hypocrisy and presence of so much wealth, when within a few feet he witnessed beggars grubbing in the dirt and abject poverty.
Of works of Art, both Charles Dickens and Thomas Carlyle talk of "canting pictures"; I think Charles Dickens picked up the word, and emotional import of it, from Thomas Carlyle's starchy Calvinist principles, and he uses it in The Chimes too.
I hope this helps a bit, but I've only really come to Thomas Carlyle through Charles Dickens!
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Greg - I'll answer you in the parlour :)
Bionic Jean wrote: "Hey look what I've discovered about etymology of the word 'cute!"When the word first appeared in English in 1731, it was a shortened form of acute, the adjective meaning “shrewd,” “keen,” or “cle..."
That's what cute means here in Ireland. Craftiness, shrewdness, would never get caught in any scam or dodgy dealing. Of course it also means pretty.
I read the first Quarter this morning. I love Dicken's comparisons in his writing. Also the happiness of Trotty and his daughter was lovely. Once the Alderman came into it I could almost feel the sadness. Maybe it's because I've been melancholic lately but I had a tear in my eye when he took the good out of the humble dinner Trotty was enjoying. Then tearing apart the happiness of the young couple made me want to deck him one!!
Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "As this is a Christmas story, I couldn’t help comparing these three “wise” friends (Alderman Cute, Mr. Filer, and the red-faced gentleman) to the Three Wise Men who worshipped a poor child of low birth and felt *they* had received the blessings when they blessed him and his family with their rich gifts. Unlike the three “wise” friends in this story, the Three Wise Men understood the meaning of love and the brotherhood of mankind.I was heartbroken at how these men destroyed the joy felt by Trotty, Meg and Richard. How sad that those fiends even took away Trotty’s special communion with the bells. I certainly hope those men get their comeuppance!.."
Shirley, I love this comparison.
The Three Wise Men arrived with compassion, love and worship, while our three men arrived with scorn and distain.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Petra - Great post about John Leech! Somehow with those views, I don't think I'd like him very much, so perhaps it's as well he was an illustrator not a writer ;)I don't think we ..."
Jean, thank you for all the additional sketches. I am enjoying the variations. They come together to give us a more well-rounded perspective of our characters.
Teresa wrote: "Maybe it's because I've been melancholic lately but I had a tear in my eye when he took the good out of the humble dinner Trotty was enjoying."I did too Teresa!
It was a moment of such simple goodness for a person that doesn't get them often. It was sad to feel it in any way spoiled. And the simple loving act of his daughter in bringing him the tripe was something I yearned for the two of them to savor together without anything marring the moment.
Bridget wrote: "I’ve been thinking about how this story is set close to the New Year (is it New Year’s Eve when the story starts, I’m not certain?) and what that time of year meant for Victorians. I believe “A Chr..."Bridget, yes, this is more of a New Year's story.
Bells ringing out the old and ringing in the new is a wonderful picture. It will be interesting to see how this concept plays into the story.
I am enjoying that this story is a New Year's one. It's nice to have a Holiday read that focusses beyond Christmas.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Hey look what I've discovered about etymology of the word 'cute!"When the word first appeared in English in 1731, it was a shortened form of acute, the adjective meaning “shrewd,” “keen,” or “cle..."
Thank you, Jean. The etymology means that Dickens did, I think, mean to let his readers think of the nastier aspects of "cute".
Rosemarie wrote: "As I was reading this, I couldn't help compare Cute and his ilk to the men canvassing Scrooge for a worthy cause in a Christmas Carol.The two stories, The Chimes and A Christmas Carol, are like the two sides of a coin...."
Rosemarie, Charles Dickens did take the plight of the poor seriously. It's nice to know that there were people advocating for the poor and hoping to make their situation a bit better.
John Forster wrote:
"He was bent, as he says, on striking a blow for the poor. They had always been his clients, they had never been forgotten in any of his books, but here nothing else was to be remembered. He had become, in short, terribly earnest in the matter.
When he came therefore to think of his new story for Christmas time, he resolved to make it a plea for the poor. He did not want it to resemble his Carol, but the same kind of moral was in his mind. He was to try and convert Society, as he had converted Scrooge, by showing that its happiness rested on the same foundations as those of the individual, which are mercy and charity not less than justice."
And, in a letter to John Forster, Dickens wrote:
"I am in regular, ferocious excitement with The Chimes; get up at seven; have a cold bath before breakfast; and blaze away, wrathful and red-hot, until three o’clock or so; when I usually knock off (unless it rains) for the day…..I am fierce to finish in a spirit bearing some affinity to those of truth and mercy, and to shame the cruel and the canting. I have not forgotten my catechism. ‘Yes verily, and with God’s help, so I will!”
Teresa wrote: "I read the first Quarter this morning. I love Dicken's comparisons in his writing. Also the happiness of Trotty and his daughter was lovely. Once the Alderman came into it I could almost feel the s..."Teresa, it's nice to have you join us.
The scene with the Alderman was a tear jerker. It's so sad that the pompous can take away the very little that the Poor have so easily.
In the case of the Alderman and his friends, they took joy & happiness away with no thought and with so little effort. It shows how precarious the lives of the Poor are.
I'm glad you could join us.
I'm sorry to have been rather absent these past couple of days. My step-father has arrived for Christmas and we're doing a bit of catching up. :DI will be here over the Holidays, though. No fears. :D
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The way Trotty thought:
"We can't go right or do right ... There is no good in us. We are born bad!"
fills me with despair and anger. No wonder Charles Dickens was trying to improve their self-esteem, and the way the poor thought of themselves.
Lovely to have you back at the helm, Petra :)
By Daniel Maclise
Second QuarterTrotty’s errand takes him to one of the richest areas of London, commonly called “The World” by its inhabitants. As he trots along, he feels the envelope as a heavy one, both because of the money (silver & gold) it contained and because of the prestigious name on the front.
The shops and streets were lively and gay. People were preparing for the ending of the year and the beginning of the New Year, with gifts and rejoicing. Abundance is in all the shop windows.
Trotty felt only despair at being poor. “Put ‘em down” sounded in his ears with every step.
He arrives at the house of Sir Joseph Bowley, Member of Parliament.
The porter answers the door and tells him to take the letter in to the parlor to Sir Bowley. He enters an opulent library. Papers and files were strewn on the table, a stately lady was giving dictation to a gentleman secretary (Mr. Fish) and a very stately man paced up and down, looking from time to time at his own, full-length portrait on the wall. He commands the secretary to take Trotty’s letter. He asks if Trotty has more demands or requests for him. He states that his cheque book is at the ready. He states that at New Year’s all things must be settled. He asks Trotty to wait for a reply to the letter.
The discussion continues around Trotty, as if he’s not there. Sir Bowley is “the Poor Man’s Friend”. He advocates for the Poor. Tobby listens to the words around him and begins to relax.
Bowley continues: the poor don’t have to think for themselves, he will think for them. He knows what they need, what’s good for them; he will advocate for these things. The poor don’t have to think about these things. The rich are the parents of the poor. What the Poor need is “The Dignity of Labour”. Hard living. Raising families on next to nothing. Be punctual in payments. And trust Bowley as their friend and father. Bowley then continues that a sin of the poor is ingratitude, and he expects no more from them. This is the nature of things.
Toby again feels that the Poor are “born bad” and hard.
Bowley then opens the letter:
The Alderman is asking Bowley to “put down” a Will Fern. The man has come to London to look for employment. He was found sleeping in a shed and taken before the Alderman. The Alderman would like vagabonding “put down” and would like Bowley’s support to this cause.
Bowley dictates his reply:
The man Fern has proven to be a rebellious spirit, it seems apt that when Fern appears before the Alderman, that Fern should be committed as a Vagabond. This would be a service to Society and set an example for the misguided class of the poor.
He turns to Trotty. Again, he bids Trotty to state that he, too, settles his affairs at the end of each year. Trotty honestly admits that he’s behind in some debts. Bowly berates the situation, turns his back on Trotty and dismisses him with a “take the letter and go”. Mr Fish forcefully shows Trotty to the door.
Despondent, Trotty didn’t even look up at the bell tower when he returned. His head held low, he knew the tower was there and the bells would soon start to ring but he hastened past them, ignoring them. He delivers the letter quickly and hurries towards home.
Before long he unseeingly bumps into a person on the street. He looks & sees a man, with a child in his arms. Trotty enquires whether the man or child has been hurt. The man thanked Trotty for his caring. Trotty was touched by the man’s “thank you”.
The man asks the directions to Alderman Cute’s house. Toby says he’ll take the man. As they walk, the man tells his story and Toby realizes this man is Will Fern. Toby tells him not to go to the Alderman’s house or he’ll be put down. Toby takes him aside and tells him what he knows.
Fern listened quietly and carefully. When Toby was finished, Fern admits the truth of the story. Fern declares that he’s never taken what didn’t belong to him and never shirked work offered him, even when it doesn’t always feed him or keep him warm. Trotty heard the truth in the words.
Fern is not concerned with being sent to jail by the Alderman, but the child would have no where to go and no one to help her. The child is his brother’s child; an orphan named Lillian; nine years old. They are looking for a friend of her mother’s, who lived in London and to seek out work.
Trotty asks him to come to his home. Fern agrees and they go off together. Meg is at home (and crying by the fire but she quickly put on a smile). Lillian takes one look at Meg and trusts her immediately, running into her arms.
Trotty welcomes Fern warmly, making sure he’s warm by the fire. Meg takes care of Lillian, making sure she’s warm, dry and snug. Lillian burst into tears at this kindness. No blessing could have soothed Meg’s heart more.
Trotty goes to purchase tea and bacon with his last 6 pence. He then proceeds to feed Fern and Lillian, declining any food himself. The party spent a very happy evening. After dinner, the sleeping arrangements are made.
Trotty moves to the fire and begins to read his newspaper. He comes across an article of a woman who killed her child then herself. The news items reinforced Trotty’s earlier thoughts of the poor being bad of heart.
The chimes rang loud, sending Toby their message: “Toby Veck, waiting for you. Come see us”. They rang loud, ominous and insistent. The sound surrounds him. “Haunt him, hunt him; drag him to us”. He must go to the chimes.
He finds the door to the Belfy ajar. He enters. It’s dark….very dark….and very silent. The chimes are silent. He accidently knocks the door shut and can not open it again! He must go up. In the dark, Toby groped his way. The stairway is low and narrow, the walls so close. At the top of the stairs, he groped his way to the ladders to the belfry and climbed upwards. A heavy sense of dread and loneliness enveloped him as he entered the belfry. Confused, giddy and frightened, Toby falls into a swoon.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Hey look what I've discovered about etymology of the word 'cute!"When the word first appeared in English in 1731, it was a shortened form of acute, the adjective meaning “shrewd,” “keen,” or “cle..."
That’s interesting, Jean, and it's my guess that you're probably correct in saying that Dickens meant ‘cute’ in the way you say. But it’s still worth note that ‘cute’ without the apostrophe has been around since c1460 in the sense of boiling wine or other spirit - leaving the dregs. (A possible, but doubtful, Dickens meaning.)
c1460 J. Russell Bk. Nurture 138 Sugre of iij. cute white hoot & moyst in his propurte (OED)
Also, ‘cute’ without the apostrophe meant ‘A cur’ or dog (which I think possible, but then again, Dickens loved dogs, so maybe not):
A cur.
1622 M. Drayton 2nd Pt. Poly-olbion xxiii. 72 Forc'd by some yelping Cute to giue the Greyhounds view. [Margin, A Curre.] (OED)
There’s at least one occassion where Dickens does use ‘cute’ with the apostrophe, though:
He writes to Forster 20 sept 1846 regarding his reading to his circle of friends, where he says: “I read them the first number last night "was a" week, with unrelateable success; and old Mrs. Marcet, who is devilish 'cute”.
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I have read in 24 and I did enjoy very much. Such a hopeful tale. Love reading Dickens in Christmas. His stories always made me feel good.
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Nice to meet you, and do tell us a bit about yourself in the "Welcome" thread, if you like :)
Bionic Jean, I was fascinated by your study of the word “cute”! So the etymology of words will remain a top priority in studying literature of the past (not to mention the complex translation issues encountered in the Bible). To me this points out the value of reading a book multiple times, as analysis should take place on many levels.Thank you so much for this valuable insight!
Thank you for the excellent summary of the Second Quarter, Petra.Speaking of etymology, I've been tripped up a number of times in this story by words and phrases unfamiliar to me. On the first page of this section, we have "Divide the lively turtles in the bills of mortality, by the number of gentlefolks able to buy 'em; and whose share does he take but his own!"
Sorry for my ignorance, but can anyone enlighten me on what the turtles signify? :-)
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Hi Lee, I agree! And we are regularly able to do quite a close analysis of the words Charles Dickens uses, because we take a read so slowly. As you saw, several of us were pondering this one. It's also always worth looking at the archaic meanings of English words, isn't it.
Do please join in more, and tell us a bit about yourself in the "Welcome" thread, if you like, Lee :)
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Trotty is beginning to feel resentful about those who keep their wealth to themselves, especially the Alderman.
Charles Dickens was to write an article in "Household Words" almost 6 years later, on Oct. 26th 1850 called Lively Turtle , about the Aldermen of the Court of Common Council, the governing body of the City of London, because of their "reactionary stupidity and complacency and their gormandising feasts (always involving turtle soup)".
https://www.djo.org.uk/indexes/articl...
The Bills of mortality were measuring the weekly deaths in London, ever since the plague:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bills_o...
Charles Dickens was very concerned about this too! Plus I feel he may be having a dig about statisticians such as Mr. Filer, who distort everything.
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Kathleen wrote: "Thank you for the excellent summary of the Second Quarter, Petra.Speaking of etymology, I've been tripped up a number of times in this story by words and phrases unfamiliar to me. On the first pa..."
Perhaps Dickens was showcasing the extent to which Trotty had brainwashed himself into believing that the poor were worthless and unworthy of living, being married, and, indeed, even being born. Is it possible that Dickens was putting the metaphor into Trotty's mouth that the poor were defenceless turtles who did nothing for themselves but pull into their shells and sit motionless?
Why would Alderman Cute's letter to Sir Joseph Bowley have contained a "ponderous amount of gold and silver" given that the intent of the letter was solely asking for approval of and commiseration with the plan to "put down" William Fenn as a vagabond? A bribe perhaps to ensure Bowley's full approval of the plan?
Ah, thank you Jean. I'm not very familiar at all with turtle soup, let alone that it would be on the menu of a "gormandising" feast! But I do like Paul's idea of it being a metaphor. Retracting into his shell is probably about what Trotty felt like doing after hearing that conversation!
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Sara wrote: "I have read in 24 and I did enjoy very much. Such a hopeful tale. Love reading Dickens in Christmas. His stories always made me feel good."Welcome to the read, Sara!
I agree that reading a Dickens story at Christmas is a good feeling. Until now, I've only read A Christmas Carol, which I read almost every year.
The Chimes is a good story to add to the annual, seasonal reading.
Lee G wrote: "Bionic Jean, I was fascinated by your study of the word “cute”! So the etymology of words will remain a top priority in studying literature of the past (not to mention the complex translation issue..."Welcome, Lee!
I've been following the etymology, too. It's fascinating how many meanings have come forward.
Kathleen wrote: ""Divide the lively turtles in the bills of mortality, by the number of gentlefolks able to buy 'em; and whose share does he take but his own!".."I was curious as well about this and tried to look up "turtles of life" to see if there was a fable or something along those lines. I did not find any reference to such a fable. LOL.
However, I did find out that the average lifespan of a turtle is 10-80 years.....which is the approx. life span of people, in a way?
Could Dickens mean that the "lively turtles in the bills of mortality" are the working poor people?
I agree with Jean that Trotty is starting to feel a sense of resentment that the poor rely so much on the rich, who have all the say in how a situation resolves. His helplessness is leading to resentment.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Petra - Thank you again for your excellent, comprehensive summary :)"Thank you, Jean.
Paul wrote: "Why would Alderman Cute's letter to Sir Joseph Bowley have contained a "ponderous amount of gold and silver" given that the intent of the letter was solely asking for approval of and commiseration ..."Paul, I took it as being a large bribe. It's awful how far the Alderman (and, possibly, all the rich?) will go to get their way.
Money talks and helps shape things. The rich have this control, the poor have no influence or input at all.
Perhaps Dickens is emphasizing this discrepancy?
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"Now, when the young man dragged a Groggles (I mean a Turtle) out of his tank, this was exactly what the noble animal expressed as he floundered back again.
I have several friends besides Mr. Groggles in the Common Council ... These Radicals and Revolutionists are the athletic young men in shirt sleeves, dragging the Lively Turtle to the edges of the tank. The Groggleses are the Turtle, looking, out for a moment, and hopping down again. Honour to the Groggleses! Honour to the Court of Lively Turtle! The wisdom of the Turtle is the hope of England!" ...
First, Turtle and Groggles are identical; wonderfully alike externally, wonderfully alike mentally. Secondly, Turtle is a good thing every way, and the liveliness of the Turtle is intended as an
example for the liveliness of man; you are not to go beyond that. Thirdly, we are all quite comfortable. Leave us alone!"
It's a long and sardonic piece, but I think you can see from these excerpts that it is saying not to mess with the status quo i.e. the closed mind (turtle in its shell) of the Alderman and the Council.
Perhaps we should have it as a short read during the summer!
Fascinating reading the all the comments here. I too was wondering a bout The Turtles. Some things were written I didn't get but I'm finding all the answers here! Really enjoying this read. It's bleak though for the most of it.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Perhaps we should have it as a short read during the summer!.."
I would be in for that. Learning the ways that Dickens thinks helps us with these reads.
Thanks, Jean, for pointing out I'm in left field (again. LOL) about Dickens' intentions. It's so easy to miss these things and I appreciate your knowledge.
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Petra is bang on about the bribes though :)
Edit - cross-posted - Petra you're doing a sterling job as always! Thank you. That one was just downright peculiar! :D
I've pencilled it in that Petra is going to lead us in the merry dance of the "Lively Turtle" for a week or so in the summer :) Thanks.
It’s been a long time since I last posted on Goodreads, and I’m glad to see that there is a great discussion about The Chimes, and many new members have joined the group. A belated Merry Christmas to you all! Thank you Petra and Jean for the summaries and the explanations, and thank you Jean for linking my picture of Palazzo Peschiere to the discussion.Alderman Cute, I hated him, but Sir Joseph Bowley is even worse: his “Poor Man’s Friend (and Father)” speech really “made my blood boil”, like Dickens wrote in a quotation reported by Jean. Dickens is so good at creating such characters.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
The Chimes (other topics)The Chimes (other topics)
The Life of Charles Dickens (other topics)
The Cricket on the Hearth (other topics)
The Chimes (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
George Alfred Williams (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
George Alfred Williams (other topics)
George Alfred Williams (other topics)
George Alfred Williams (other topics)
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This mask sounds very eerie Jean, though I imagine there would be a touch of wonder in the experience too. Where do they keep the death mask, at one of the museums?