The Chimes (hosted by Petra)

[Petra]

Bionic Jean wrote: "Here's another artist I really like for Charles Dickens:



Trotty Veck and Meg - Harold Copping 1924"

This is a warm and loving picture. Meg and Trotty look so content and happy with each other. Their love and respect for each other shows through strongly.

[Kathleen]

Starting late (and making a note not to let that happen in this group--you get behind so fast!), and read this section this morning. Wow--these comments are scintillating! Have to agree with Paul that this is quite a special conversation.

Petra, Your summary is so helpful, and I love the details you’ve found--the portraits and especially the desks! I too wonder about Dickens’ poor back.

Greg, I love that you broadened this out--the treatment of the poor here is much like the hypocrisy still shown today in so many instances. One place my mind went was immigrants.

I’m so glad Bridget brought up the Henry the Eighth quote. I assumed as she did, but have learned so much here. I’m not Catholic, and had no idea about these baptism and christening details.

I had a hard time getting into this at first. I found the beginning atmospheric, but confusing, until I understood who Trotty was. But Dickens does feeling so well. When I read Jean’s comment about "personification," I realized, that’s it! That’s how he makes everything so evocative, from his descriptions of place to the feelings of people, he brings it home to the reader in a way that we can’t help but feel it.

[Petra]

Petra wrote: "Jean, I'd have to go back and check but I think Harry Furniss died and was buried in the States and a relative had him moved to Hastings. However he got there, he's there now.
.."

I was mistaken. I was sure I read this somewhere but it must have been someone else's death and I mixed them up. Sorry.

"In 1912 he worked in New York with Thomas Alva Edison, writing, directing, and acting in films. He continued this activity on his return to England in 1913. There he wrote Our lady cinema (1914), in which he set out his vision of the future of the new medium. Furniss died 14 January 1925 at his home in Hastings."

From: https://www.dib.ie/biography/furniss-...

[Petra]

Kathleen, it's great to have you join us. It's still early in this read but I know what you mean about playing "catch up" with the comments and discussion. I've been in that boat. LOL.
Our discussions are always so lively and interesting. I love the rabbit holes we wander into.

[Sara]

LOVE all the illustrations, Jean, but particularly the color one. The one of Meg having her chin touched by the rank old Alderman is perfect. I cannot think how people like Richard contained themselves from slapping such men...but of course, they could not or they would be "put down".

I could not help thinking of how some people talk of the homeless in much the same way this alderman speaks of Meg and Toby. There are ne'er-do-wells in this world, but poverty does not make you one and money does not keep you from being one. The eating of the last morsel of the tripe was a final straw for me...I wish nothing but bad things upon these pompous men. The image of Meg and Richard walking away so downcast was painful. Dickens has managed to stir absolute rage in me.

[Greg]

Kathleen wrote: "Greg, I love that you broadened this out--the treatment of the poor here is much like the hypocrisy still shown today in so many instances. One place my mind went was immigrants."

Thanks Kathleen! :) And I agree.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

I absolutely loved the discussion on the nameless and mugless chimes. It’s because of discussions like this that I love reading along with the wonderful Dickensians! readers. I get so much more out of Dickens’ stories thanks to all of you!

On the different illustrators, you informed us, Jean, that John Leech was specifically chosen by Dickens, but I’m just not a fan of his. Maybe his style was popular at that time, but I find his drawings to be almost a debased representation of people. While I like the realism of Charles Green, my favorite is Harry Furniss. Maybe it’s because I remember his illustrations from Dombey and Son? Am I remembering correctly?

That drawing of Trotty, Meg and Alderman Cute by Charles Green definitely represents the old adage of “a picture is worth a thousand words.” This drawing speaks volumes of all three characters! Oh the sense of noblesse oblige that Alderman Cute felt to give him the right to touch Meg and say the things he did about her, her father and Richard. He might as well have taken a scythe to them all.

Trotty was such a simple man in the way he saw the world and his place in it. His sense of unjustified unworthiness made me want to cry. Alderman Cute may have thought Trotty dim-witted, but Trotty was the more introspective and thinking man of the two. Trotty questioned life; Alderman Cute accepted what he was brought up to believe.

As this is a Christmas story, I couldn’t help comparing these three “wise” friends (Alderman Cute, Mr. Filer, and the red-faced gentleman) to the Three Wise Men who worshipped a poor child of low birth and felt *they* had received the blessings when they blessed him and his family with their rich gifts. Unlike the three “wise” friends in this story, the Three Wise Men understood the meaning of love and the brotherhood of mankind.

I was heartbroken at how these men destroyed the joy felt by Trotty, Meg and Richard. How sad that those fiends even took away Trotty’s special communion with the bells. I certainly hope those men get their comeuppance!

[Teresa]

Some wonderful comments and beautiful pictures here! I'm afraid I haven't started yet. The last few days have been hectic for me and at night I'm just planted in front of the tv watching darts. I'll get to it as soon as possible.

[Greg]

Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "On the different illustrators, you informed us, Jean, that John Leech was specifically chosen by Dickens, but I’m just not a fan of his. Maybe his style was popular at that time, but I find his drawings to be almost a debased representation of people. ..."

I felt that way too Shirley.

I'm not sure if it's a quirk on my part, as I'm not always fond of caricature. I found it really interesting though that Dickens was a fan, and as I've only seen a few sketches, it's hard for me to really know my reactions to Leech in general. I can certainly see my opinion changing with a better acquaintance.

I really feel for Trotty, and I want for him to be treated with grace. There's a tenderness I sense in Greene's treatment of him, and I suppose that's why I'm liking those ones so much.

[Paul]

Teresa wrote: "Some wonderful comments and beautiful pictures here! I'm afraid I haven't started yet. The last few days have been hectic for me and at night I'm just planted in front of the tv watching darts. I'l..."

When you're finished with the darts, you'll doubtless be raring to throw some very pointed comments into the discussion!

[Teresa]

Here's hoping Paul :)

[Sara]

Shirley - love the comparison to the Magi!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

I loved all Shirley's post :) And yes, Harry Furniss has illustrated Dombey and Son.

I suspect that once Phiz (Hablot Knight Browne) had established the caricatures, several other artists felt that was what Charles Dickens wanted. Not all Phiz's work was caricatures e.g. the dark plates by him were not humorous, but they were far fewer. So John Leech may have felt obliged to produce more caricatures than naturalistic work.

By the time of both Harry Furniss and Charles Green, Charles Dickens had died, so they had more of a free hand in how they interpreted the stories - and indeed what scenes they were allowed to illustrate!

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Thank you so much for your sweet words, Sara and Jean!

I thought I was remembering Harry Furniss' work in Dombey and Son, Jean. I loved his illustrations.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Here's another American illustration, of when the footman opens the door and finds Trotty Veck:



First Quarter - E.A. Abbey - 1876

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

I like that illustration by E.A. Abbey, Jean. It definitely shows the cultural difference between the three wealthy friends and the rest of the characters in the story.

Goodreads won't let me link to the photo, but I just found another illustration of Trotty in Wikipedia. This one was done by Kyd (Joseph Clayton Clarke). I seem to remember him as well in Dombey and Son. Again, I don't think his depiction of Trotty is very nice or accurate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chi...

[Paul]

This is a photo of a bellringer circa 1875. It isn't Trotty but it certainly looks like he could serve as a sitting model for Dickens' artists:

https://www.facebook.com/Historical.S...

[Curt]

I agree. The name Cute is certainly ironic in that he is not cute at all, but cruel.

[Sara]

Fabulous find, Paul! Look at those shoes and how dirty his clothes are. Makes me want to cry. His face looks so rugged. You can see a hard life there.

[Curt]

Trotty, Meg and Alderman Cute Great drawings.
Excellent. Much like I imagined.

[[deleted user]]

For a long time, "cute" was used in the sense of smart or clever. Sometimes old gangster movies have someone saying "Don't get cute with me, sister!" In other words, don't try to outsmart me.

I took Alderman Cute's name in that sense, Dickens' way of describing how the alderman views himself - clever with his "warm and fuzzy" rhetoric (but it's actually repulsive and self-serving).

[Curt]

I agree. Cute is self-serving and arrogant.

[Sandy]

Thank you for all the background information and illustrations. I have really enjoyed reading the first quarter and all the commentary.

I am looking forward to reading the next quarter.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Cozy_Pug and Curt too ... Cozy_Pug wrote: "For a long time, "cute" was used in the sense of smart or clever. Sometimes old gangster movies have someone saying "Don't get cute with me, sister!" In other words, don't try to outsmart me ..."

Oddly, this sense may not have occurred to Charles Dickens's original readers! Here in England, "cute" always means pretty, in a dainty way, charming, delightful and so on - even now. It isn't so long ago (maybe just before Goodreads!) that that was the only way I had ever heard it used!

Talking to North Americans though, I realised that there is another meaning. The dictionary says: ,"clever or cunning, especially in a self-seeking or superficial way". So you're absolutely right as to a modern meaning, Cozy_Pug.

Charles Dickens had visited the States in 1842, and The Chimes was written just 2 years later in 1844, so the US vernacular could well have still been in his mind, even though it would mean nothing to his readers!

Alternatively, and far more probably, they would be aware of the other similar words acute and cut and understand that Alderman Cute is very sharp - in all senses of the word! Charles Dickens often used just part of a word, or two words together, or a word that sounded like another word, when inventing his names, as we've found :)

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

It's great to see you joining in, Cozy-Pug and Sandy :)

[Kathleen]

I like your suggestion about acute and cut for our nasty Alderman Cute. He certainly gives me an acute pain!

But I certainly heard the word "cute" used frequently, in old movies but also from older folks, as Cozy Pug referenced: "don't get cute with me."

And in my childhood, it was a very frequent slang derogatory comment: "Cute, real cute." The feeling behind it was "you think you're so smart but you are just annoying," and my experience with the frequent use in this way made it something the Alderman fits nicely into.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Oh I think Charles Dickens might well have picked it up from his visit to America, Kathleen, since he had been there so recently, and be gleefully using the word in several ways.

Have you ever heard it used in England? My grandmother was born in 1880, and I'm sure she would not have understood that sense of the word ... Variations of regional English are so interesting :)

(And the use of "real" in your example rather than "really" is also American, of course.)

Edit - Is "cute" not used in American slang now then? I'm getting the impression it's old hat!

[Kathleen]

Yes, we have mangled quite a few words over here, Jean. :-)

And added to that, on a personal note, grammar was not emphasized in my school experience. I remember, when I started my first regular job after college, my boss handed back some document I'd composed all marked with grammatical corrections. I was horrified! Granted, he was an English PhD, but how come no one, in 16 years of school, including oodles of college essays and reports, had corrected me? It's something I still struggle with, and have never properly learned.

But someone younger will have to respond to whether "cute" is still in use. I've been genially laughed at plenty of times for using outdated phrases!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

LOL Well as I typed that question, I thought to myself, probably "old hat" is old hat now ;) My expressions are quaintly English sometimes, I gather from what people say here.

I'm very cross with your first boss though, Kathleen who sounds a stickler for the sake of it, rather than the analysis we do here :( Friends of ours had the opposite experience. J was a secretary who had typed "an hotel". Her boss insisted it was wrong, and demanded she do it again as "a hotel". So she phoned her husband G (who read English at Oxford). He confirmed it should be "an hotel", but I think was a bit embarrassed! Meanwhile J. was content to not have to type an incorrect usage (though I think nowadays either is acceptable).

Also sometimes we come across a usage which was common in the UK in the 18th century, but then fell into disuse. I'd love to see Charles Dickens use "gotten", but I suspect it was considered archaic in England even then. Yet modern Americans use it all the time! An example of English usage being more traditional in the States than in its mother country?!

(Sorry to go a little off-topic, all!)

[Kathleen]

Bionic Jean wrote: "... a stickler for the sake of it, rather than the analysis we do here."

Ah, analysis! If grammar had been presented to me as analysis, I'd have been an eager student, Jean. Thanks for that thought! :-)

[Petra]

Jean, not off topic at all! Dickens would have loved the talk about words and their nuances. I know I am.

Like Kathleen, grammar wasn't emphasized in our school. It's a shame, I think.

[Sue]

I love this talk of language. Reminds me of college when I enjoyed analyzing the language authors used. My thesis was on Faulkner’s language choices.

I love what you have to say about the word “gotten”, Jean. I always feel guilty if I use it :-)

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Oh really Sue? Why? I thought it was normal speech; what you would say instead of English English's past tense: "had got".

We did study English Grammar at school; it was a separate subject from English Literature, which not everyone studied past about the age of 15. But all pupils were taught English Grammar. The 2 "O" levels (GCSE) most employers and all colleges insisted on were English Language (Grammar) and Maths. I just enjoyed the breaking down of sentences and underlining all the different clauses and parts of speech in different colours :D

Charles Dickens's headmaster Mr. Squeers shows us an example of:

"the practical mode of teaching, Nickleby; the regular education system. C-l-e-a-n, clean, verb active, to make bright, to scour. W-i-n, win, d-e-r, der, winder, a casement. When the boy knows this out of book, he goes and does it."

Priceless! And of course Charles Dickens had seen schools like this for himself. This novella The Chimes too, is a persuasive piece of writing to do with social reform.

Before he wrote The Chimes, Charles Dickens wrote to his friend John Forster:

In my mind's eye, I like more and more my notion of making, in this little book, a great blow for the poor" and a little later:

"I am in regular, ferocious excitement with 'The Chimes' ... I am fierce to finish in a spirit bearing some affinity to those of truth and mercy, and to shame the cruel and the canting ..."

Perhaps things do not bode well for the good Alderman Cute after all :)

[Sue]

I always feel somehow that gotten is slang, spoken but not written. But I don’t have a substitute for it so I feel like I missed something in my youth. From what you say, it seems I probably didn’t though it might vary depending on the company I keep ( or the particular teachers). My English education was primarily literature after grade school, ca.. 10 or 11 years old, but that can vary depending on what course a student is in. So the attention to grammar was when I was very young.

[Teresa]

You should hear some of the words we use here in Ireland!! Sometimes I feel like we speak in slang:):)

[Petra]

John Leech 29 August 1817 – 29 October 1864

John Leech was a British caricaturist and illustrator. He was best known for his work for Punch, a humorous magazine, combining verbal and graphic political satire with light social comedy. Leech catered to contemporary prejudices, such as anti-Americanism and antisemitism and supported acceptable social reforms. Leech's critical yet humorous cartoons on the Crimean War help shape public attitudes toward heroism, warfare, and Britons' role in the world.

On the death of Dickens illustrator Robert Seymour in 1836, John Leech unsuccessfully submitted his renderings to illustrate The Pickwick Papers. This job was given to his rival "Phiz".

However, Leech would later illustrate several other of Charles Dickens' novels. These illustrations are regarded as some of his best works.

[Petra]

Alderman Cute and His Friends by John Leech

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Paul wrote: "This is a photo of a bellringer circa 1875. It isn't Trotty but it certainly looks like he could serve as a sitting model for Dickens' artists:

https://www.facebook.com/Historical.S......."

Oh what a sad picture! Yes, he does bear some resemblance to Trotty. Looking at his torn and mended and remended clothes, I just can’t fathom the depth of his poverty, even though he was a working man. Such hard times!

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Greg wrote: "Teresa wrote: "You should hear some of the words we use here in Ireland!! Sometimes I feel like we speak in slang:):)"

And there were a multiple words/phrases I could only find in a special dictionary of Anglo-Irish words when I read Seamus Heaney's translation of Beowulf…

Uh oh… I may be in trouble, then. I just bought a “translation” of Beowulf by Seamus. I hope I can understand it.

[Rosemarie]

Shirley, I have that translation of Beowulf and really enjoyed it a lot.

[Greg]

Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "Uh oh… I may be in trouble, then. I just bought a “translation” of Beowulf by Seamus. I hope I can understand it"

You shouldn't have trouble Shirley. You don't need to know what those occasional words mean to understand it - context gives you the gist; in fact, I think most people would just skip over those words and not even notice. It was a little obsessive of me; I just wanted to know exactly what they meant. The translation is superb in my opinion; it's my favorite of the several translations I've read over the years. It's both lovely and highly accessible.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Petra - Great post about John Leech! Somehow with those views, I don't think I'd like him very much, so perhaps it's as well he was an illustrator not a writer ;)

I don't think we have had any illustrations by Fred Barnard, have we, so I'll post a couple now :)

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Frontispiece - Fred Barnard 1878

[Paul]

Greg wrote: "Paul wrote: "And, in the USA, the dominance is essentially overwhelming. One has to dig deep to find references to authors and novels from other countries...."

I'm not sure that's true Paul. In hi..."

True enough. I stand corrected. Perhaps I should apply my comment to current novels as opposed to long-standing world famous classics such as you've mentioned.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Paul wrote: "This is a photo of a bellringer circa 1875 ...."

I really like that Paul! So much so that I'm following the page now :) Photos from the era add such a frisson ... even though it is early in photography, we have that sense of reality. We are very lucky to have photographs of the older Charles Dickens (and I've been within inches of a bust using the death mask of his face - very weird).

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

I do like the names "Mr Filer" and "Mr Worthy".

Mr. Filer - there are two possible meanings: to smooth a surface, or wear it down to nothing (both of which could fit) or to file papers (if this is rather than dealing with a problem, that fits too!)

Mr. Worthy - of course is anything but. Minor officials are all subject to Charles Dickens's scathing sarcasm and sardonic wit.

I'm looking forward to learning more about the humbler characters :)

[Lori]

I love these Furniss illustrations and the one you posted, Jean is so much more crisp than the one on my kindle version. I like Meg's expression and Trotty's willingness to play her guessing game of "What's for dinner."
The Charles Green images are all wonderful as well but for some reason, my idea of Trotty when I read Dicken's description of him fits best to Furniss.
Thanks for all the uploads from you and Petra. It is amazing to think how different it would be reading any Dicken's book without these illustrations. I'm so glad we have them and can share them.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Yes, we are very lucky! I think Petra posted the Harry Furniss illustration, though I do have one by him for the third quarter :)

[Rosemarie]

As a Canadian I get the best of both British and American authors!
And Canadian authors, of course!

But lately I've been reading a lot of British Library Crime Classics!
And I really like Dashiell Hammett and Rex Stout in that genre as well.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Rosemarie wrote: "As a Canadian I get the best of both British and American authors!
And Canadian authors, of course!..."

I had thought this would be the case, until Paul's comment. I've been told by Australian friends that they get both American and English books. Thanks Rosemarie :)