Dickensians! discussion
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Greg, love the ship, mug and name story. That does feel Dicksonian, in it's way. But I agree that it's a bit elaborate for this story. Loved hearing the story.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Therefore the Chimes bells will have been deconsecrated, and this would date from the dissolution of the monasteries etc. by Henry VIII, when he ordered the assets of more and more religious institutions such as parish churches to be taken by the Crown, including the "melting down their [silver] mugs". The bells escaped this, being cast of bronze, not silver or gold, but remain in situ as bells, albeit not holy...."I like this as an explanation of the bells being mugless. They have slipped from Holy items to plain, ordinary, nameless, unimportant bells. While still themselves and with all the glory of sound that they always had, they have lost something.
Kind of like Trotty and his thoughts. He was relatively content but now is starting to lose some of that, therefore becoming like the bells: plain, ordinary, nameless, unimportant (in his mind, at least).
Petra wrote: "Bridget, enjoy the chapter of Dickens' time in Italy. Forster did a good job of portraying Dickens' enthusiasm for this story. I like your comparison of Trotty and the bells being mugless/nameles..."
I was also thinking that perhaps Dickens was referring to the removal of their names as a metaphor for the removal of their power in their de-consecration and in the elimination of the power of the Catholic church by virtue of his creation of the C of E. That said, I like your idea of nameplates as a possibility. Donors who contributed to the bells forging and installation perhaps?
Fun fact: I am reading the ebook of Charles Dickens complete short stories. I searched for "baptized" and expected a huge list of references/quotes to weed through. There were only 2! Charles Dickens didn't use the word "baptized" hardly at all! Okay.....back to the story......
After rereading the passage, I recalled that when a child is baptized they are given a baptismal mug as a remembrance. I don't know what is engraved on such a mug. Perhaps just the name of the child? Perhaps the date of the baptism, where it took place?
Whatever is engraved, it gives a sense of place and being. A kind of root or solidity into the religion. It could be seen as being a part of a community, a large family....an acceptance into a group.
If this sense of acceptance is lost (one becomes mugless), it leaves one without a rudder and perhaps aimless. I'm not sure how that reflects on the bells being mugless, though, as the bells have a purpose, if just to mark Time.
The quote:
"The bells had been baptized by bishops: so many centuries ago, that the registry of their baptism was lost long, long before the memory of man, and no one knew their names. They had had their Godfathers and Godmothers, these bells, and had their silver mugs no doubt, besides."
When I was christened as a baby I was given various silver medals items, an egg cup, a napkin.ring and, yes, a mug. That is what I took it was referred to her, as christening presents for the bells. Bells’ names were remembered as in Dorothy Sayers’s wonderful whodunnit, The Nine Tailors
Paul wrote: "Bridget wrote: "Honestly Greg, I’m not completely certain what the mug reference is either. So here are my guesses, and maybe someone else knows with certainty.I don’t think it can be the clapper..."
Jean, I knew about the dissolution of monasteries and guessed that part but didn't know about the distinction in type of metal of what would be melted down.
And ahhhhhhhh, thanks Paul, Jean, and Bridget, I think I finally get it. Thanks all of you.
So I think what you mean is that the first "mugs" in "Henry the Eighth had melted down their mugs; are the actual silver mugs that were melted down.
And the second "mugless" in and they now hung, nameless and mugless, in the church-tower is play on words for faceless (anonymous) as you say Paul.
What was throwing me was that I was thinking there must be a relationship between the mugs and the bell, given the way mugless was used. I thought for some reason the mugs must belong with the bell. But it it was used in that odd way as wordplay.
Thanks Paul, Jean, and Bridget! Hopefully I've got it right now. Let me know if I'm still astray.
I'm great at metaphors, symbols, and indirection but absolutely terrible with puns. Whenever I need to look up an explanatory note to understand something in a line of Shakespeare, it's always a pun, ha ha.
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I had not come across "baptised" used for the Church of England's naming of a child, only christening. So that seemed odd for a parish church.
Charles Dickens's beliefs were Christian, as we've discussed before, and closest to Unitarians, but I'm not sure how that would affect this. Low Church Protestants (e.g. Baptists) tend to use "dedication" for a child, as "baptism" indicates an adult declaration (and immersion).
This could be why Charles Dickens has only used the word twice, (wow Petra, what a find!) but I agree that the sense of that sentence does imply a baby, because of the silver mugs ....
And I've just discovered that Catholics use the word "baptism" for a baby! So before Henry VIII, the bells would indeed be "baptised" i.e. consecrated, and Henry VIII would then deconsecrate them.
Petra wrote: "Some themes are timeless. In the case of the Poor and other inequalities that's sad because so much Time has passed and we haven't moved forward much..."So true Petra!
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And I take mugless to refer to the destruction of the chalices at the Reformation
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Oh goodness, cross-posted. Love those additions Jean, Paul, Petra, Jon! And that quote is really illuminating Petra!They don't give mugs at baptisms here, silver or otherwise; so I had no idea. Or at least I don't believe my parents have one from when we were baptised Catholic.
Kudos to Petra and to the group at large. My experience with group reads and group discussion dates back to the time of Yahoo Newsgroups and it must be said that participation at this level for an entire novel over the course of a month would have put me over the moon. But to experience it for just the first chapter of a mere short story, ... well, I simply can't believe it. Thanks so much everybody.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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And thank you for participating too!
Baptism is the usual word here in Ireland. We have actual Baptismal Certificates here that we have to hand into school when the child is enrolled (well when mine were anyway many moons ago). Interestingly my son received a silver mug from his Godfather on the day of his Christening.
Teresa wrote: "Baptism is the usual word here in Ireland. We have actual Baptismal Certificates here that we have to hand into school when the child is enrolled (well when mine were anyway many moons ago). Intere..."How nice Teresa! Something for your son to treasure later, knowing that his Godfather was thinking of him. :)
I don't remember my nephew receiving anything when he got baptized Catholic here in the United States other than the certificate, and I don't think my parents kept anything from when the three of us got baptized other than the certificate and pictures. I think the church gave me a Bible at confirmation though? Hard to remember - it's been many years ago now. :)
I get it Greg. I was raised Roman Catholic but I can't say I'm devout. I believe in and do what I think is right. My three children have very different ideas about religion and I'm fine with that. They are three VERY different ideas!!
Paul, thank you. Jean has set the group up so well that it's an interesting and lively experience to participate in any group read. I love our group discussions. It's good to have you here and enjoying the experience.
Greg, I got a bible from the Church at my Confirmation. I really liked that little bible. It had such onion-skin thin pages. I'd never seen such delicate pages before and loved the feel of them on my fingers.
Yes.....that was many years ago for me, too.
I have only read the comments through Message 43 (I stopped before your summary, Petra), but I wanted to thank you for all of the information you have posted so far. I got “behind” in my reading this year, so I didn’t participate in any of the side reads but I felt it was time to jump back in before we start Bleak House next year. Right away, I wanted to cry - I was so joyful at sitting down with my old friend again. No one writes like Charles Dickens…. his descriptions, his humor, his drawing the reader into the poverty of 19th century London… I can’t wait to read along with everyone once again. I’ve missed you all.
Harry Furniss March 26, 1854 – January 14, 1925
Harry Furniss was a British illustrator. His first job as an illustrator was for the Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News, and when it was purchased by the owner of The Illustrated London News he moved to that magazine.
After some years Furniss moved to The Graphic, initially writing and illustrating a series of supplements titled "Life in Parliament". His most famous humorous drawings were published in Punch, for which he started working in 1880, and to which he contributed over 2,600 drawings.
He left Punch in 1894 when its owners discovered that he had sold one of his 'Punch' drawings to Pears Soap for use in an advertising campaign.
On leaving Punch Furniss brought out his own humorous magazine Lika Joko, but when this failed he moved to America where he worked as a writer and actor in the fledgling film industry and where, in 1914, he pioneered the first animated cartoon film for Thomas Edison.
His two-volume autobiography, titled The Confessions of a Caricaturist, Vol. 1 was published in 1902, and a further volume of personal recollections and anecdotes, Harry Furniss at Home, was published in 1904.
Furniss wrote and illustrated twenty-nine books of his own and illustrated thirty-four works by other authors, including the complete works of Charles Dickens and William Makepeace Thackeray.
Furniss Family plot in Hastings, England:
Trotty and Meg by Harry Furniss:
Petra wrote: "Trotty and Meg by Harry Furniss:"
Trotty's face in Furmiss' sketch looks a lot like his face in Leech's sketch. Even the expression is similar!
I love that Henry Furniss illustration of Trotty smelling the warm food that his daughter brought to him. They look so happy with their simple pleasures until the Alderman spoils the day. Thanks for the wealth of information that you have brought to the read, Petra.
Yes I have done some out loud reading. The fun is trying to get the voice to match the character.
I love the description at the beginning. I got cold just thinking about it. And poor Trotty standing in the cold waiting for a job.As for the Alderman and his two friends-they are mean-spirited, hard-hearted and greedy-- and then go on to say a terrible the poor are. I do hope something happens to them- but somehow I doubt it.
I hope things work out with Meg and Richard.
message 127:
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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Baptism is the church word for the rite in all Christian traditions. Christening is the secular word for the day. It’s like the difference between marriage and a wedding
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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And I was fascinated to read the association with "Pears"! We think of them as just a soap manufacturer, but there is a connection with Charles Dickens. As I said, they published the beautiful set of his 5 Christmas books (cloth bound with gold tooling) and commissioned 30 illustration for each one, by Charles Green. I can't really share them all, but have been busy scanning, uploading, cropping etc., and will post a few from the first Quarter now :)
Petra's already shared the first one of Trotty Veck, and I've added the lovely gothic title page of the Pears Centenary edition to the first comment, as our "cover". What a shame Harry Furniss didn't stay with Pears too!
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The Home of the Bells - Charles Green 1912
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Trotty Veck and Meg - Charles Green
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The savoury pie a few moments later - Charles Green
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Trotty is mocked - Charles Green
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Trotty, Meg and Alderman Cute - Charles Green
I love Green's style of illustration - really lovely!
message 138:
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Dec 20, 2021 12:52PM)
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Sorry Jon - but it has the word Christ in it, so it's unlikely to be secular! Other religions don't use it, and neither do all Protestants. (I was "dedicated" as a baby, and never "baptised", for example. I went to baptismal classes as a teenager, but chose not to be baptised.) Here is the derivation of the word "Christening":
"c. 1200, from Old English cristnian "to baptize," literally "to make Christian," from cristen "Christian" (see Christian). General meaning of "to name" is attested from mid-15c."
What I meant was that christening would not be the word used for the sacrament in church use. In my experience it is used for the celebration on the day.
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Trotty Veck and Meg - Harold Copping 1924
Bionic Jean wrote: "Trotty, Meg and Alderman Cute - Charles Green"
Anyone else beside me who looks at this picture and reads the line about Alderman Cute chucking Meg under her chin and gets a very modern, sinking feeling of aversion about sexual harassment? The artist got it perfectly, the hate and disgust on Trotty's face knowing he was helpless to do anything and Meg's body language shying away from a very unwanted touch.
Paul, that was my reaction as well. Poor Meg!
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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Jon - Ah yes, OK, thanks for the clarification.
Greg - I find his work almost photographic, in these monochrome watercolours. And very intuitive.
(Edited - crossposting!)
I’ve been away from my computer for a day and I come back to find these wonderful discussions of baptisms and Henry VII and now I like that passage even more. Such a great group we have.Plus I love all these new pictures. Paul, I had that same reaction to the picture of Meg, Trotty and Alderman Cute. I also felt that way before I saw the picture, and had only read about the scene because of how protective Trotty seems of Meg.
Love that gift of something silver - it just makes the event more special!And I guess this christening vs baptism thing has already been beaten to death, but I ran across this interesting article. Unfortunately, it does a terrible job at citing sources as it's not an academic article, but it was interesting regardless.
I have heard both terms used and honestly, I wasn't aware of any difference:
Website: https://www.thepuregift.com/christeni...
Graphic from Article at Website:
Greg and Connie, this is a nice sketch of anticipation and enjoyment, I agree.Greg, you made me go back and look at Leech's sketch. The faces are similar but Trotty looks happier here (maybe in anticipation of a warm lunch).
Curt wrote: "Yes I have done some out loud reading. The fun is trying to get the voice to match the character."Curt, that would be fun. I don't think I've ever read aloud to myself and given different voices to the characters.
Rosemarie wrote: "I love the description at the beginning. I got cold just thinking about it. And poor Trotty standing in the cold waiting for a job.As for the Alderman and his two friends-they are mean-spirited, ..."
We had a cold day here today (top temp was freezing level). I went for a run/jog outside and thought of Trotty having to do this all day, every day just to make ends meet. I only had to trot around town for an hour. LOL.
The Alderman and his friends were plain mean. I agree that they are awful. It will be interesting to see if they change. I also doubt it.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Petra - thank you so much for more fascinating information about the artists. GR "author" pages for these really need your expertise. Harry Furniss was buried in Hastings? Wow - I ..."Jean, I'd have to go back and check but I think Harry Furniss died and was buried in the States and a relative had him moved to Hastings. However he got there, he's there now.
I have only heard of Pears as a soap company. It's interesting that they had other interests.
Thank you for all the pictures. I really like the picture of the Bell tower in the first post. It's eerie and gothic and wonderful for this story.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Trotty, Meg and Alderman Cute - Charles Green"
This picture makes me so angry at the Alderman. Get your hands off that lady!
Poor Meg and Trotty.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
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Authors mentioned in this topic
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I like your comparison of Trotty and the bells being mugless/nameless.
Could the mugs removed by Henry the Eighth been nameplates on the bells? I have to go back and check but wasn't there a reference of the bells being baptised at some point (given names)?