The Chimes (hosted by Petra)

[Greg]

Connie wrote: "Some of the long sentences in the beginning of "The Chimes" accentuate the power of the wind whipping around the building, up in the steeple, twisting around the various parts of the church tower. The reader can visualize the ribbon of chilly wind twisting and turning wildly with great energy."

Definitely Connie, it's chilly here, and I was feeling colder as I read it!

[Petra]

Jean, Dickens is so young in the portrait. I found that charming. We usually see pictures of Dickens when he's older. It's interesting to see him so young.....and already so well known as an author.

In this portrait, Dickens' writing table looks a bit low for him. I wonder how his back felt after a few hours of writing.

Paul, that would be an interesting experience. I haven't tried reading Dickens out loud.
I like Toby's relationship to the bells and, in extension, his neighbourhood. To me, these bells represent Toby's contentment, belonging and inclusion within himself, in a way. He feels good about Life with all that is familiar around him. The bells are such strong personalities that they rate highly in his sense of contentment and belonging.

Connie and Sue, the wind is described in amazing clarity. I could feel those cold, whipping winds swirling around Toby, the buildings, the city, the people. The winds set the tone of the scene perfectly.

[Greg]

I read part one this morning.

I'm guessing there was a lot of material popular in the press and in public speech in Dickens' day about how these were "degenerate times" (in the words of the red-faced gentleman in the blue coat) and the working poor of these days were nothing like the "bold peasantry" or more honorable working poor of former days. At least that's what Dickens seems to suggest.

It's a common thing actually, from speeches in ancient Roman times all the way up to politicians today; people are always harping on about how the people in current times are the worst. I like Dickens' witty remark on the good "Old Times":

"The gentleman didn't specify what particular times he alluded to; nor did he say whether he objected to the present times, from a disinterested consciousness that they had done nothing very remarkable in producing himself."

Ha!

And I also like what Dickens is doing in this part, posing the question as to what effect all this rhetoric has on the people being referred to. Poor Trotty Veck has internalized a lot of this popular rhetoric, thinking, "We can't go right or do right . . . . There is no good in us. We are born bad."

It's a hard thing to be in a position to think like this. It makes me think of some essays where Woolf reflects on what it feels like being a subject of so much discussion over the "Woman Question." There's a part in The Odd Women where one of the characters thinks that she just wants to be the best that she can be in her situation as a Victorian spinster. It's not easy to be the object of a current controversy. There's so much judgement heaped upon them that they have to move past it to have a clear picture of themselves. And it seems Trotty is facing something similar. Being under general judgement for things that can't be controlled is a predicament I can relate to, even if I can have no real idea what poverty like that is like.

The simple joy that Meg, Richard, and Trotty are enjoying with the gift of tripe is destroyed by the intrusion of the fine gentlemen who see them as pests at best. And what's the point of making their almost intolerable situation worse?

The brazen hypocrisy of the Alderman accusing Trotty of greed, culminating in him even eating a piece of Trotty's tripe, is galling.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Paul - yes, this is great way to slow it down, and really value every word. It's a great strategy for many of Charles Dickens's longer descriptions too.

(Sorry - forgot to refresh the page - lots more comments!)

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Petra - about the table - that's not the one which is in Doughty Street now! A few years ago the museum bought the desk which he had much later, and wrote Great Expectations on!

https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...



It's a bit misleading really, and the guides don't tell people that the piece of furniture they are gazing on with such reverence, was never actually in that room when Dickens was alive. You're right, the one in the portrait is not nearly as grand as this later one, which is on display. Charles Dickens was well known, but had so many demands on his pocket earlier in life, and would not have been able to spend so much money on a desk.

[Paul]

Greg wrote: "I read part one this morning.

The brazen hypocrisy of the Alderman accusing Trotty of greed, culminating in him even eating a piece of Trotty's tripe, is galling..."

My reaction to that incident was quite visceral. Deep in my gut, I felt "How DARE they??"

[Lori]

I’m loving the descriptions as well. The wind is personified so exquisitely that if it weren’t a blustery day here as I read this section, I could very easily feel it with Dickens’ words. Toby is a gem and a good man and so cheerful about his job. I love the description of him and could picture a slight man with a tiny nose. He is positively affected by the chimes as they tell him all is well. But the idea that the poor are intruding on life is just awful and I don’t doubt that the way Toby’s thoughts were altered and affected so quickly by the alderman’s words was a common occurrence. And the gall or hypocrisy of the alderman is sickening.

[Petra]

John Leech drew this image of Toby,



John Leech (29 August 1817 – 29 October 1864) was a British caricaturist and illustrator.
He was best known for his work for Punch, a humorous magazine, combining verbal and graphic political satire with light social comedy.
Leech catered to contemporary prejudices, such as anti-Americanism and antisemitism and supported acceptable social reforms. Leech's critical yet humorous cartoons on the Crimean War help shape public attitudes toward heroism, warfare, and Britons' role in the world.
On the death of Dickens illustrator Robert Seymour in 1836, John Leech unsuccessfully submitted his renderings to illustrate the Pickwick Papers. This job was given to his rival "Phiz". However, Leech would later illustrate several other of Charles Dickens' novels. These illustrations are regarded as some of his best works.

[Petra]

Here's another one (illustrator unknown). Found it....the illustrator is Charles Green.

In this one, Toby looks colder and more introspective somehow, I find.

[Petra]

Jean, that's a much more opulent desk.
Dickens did have many financial demands upon him. It seemed that no matter how much he worked, he couldn't quite catch up.

Greg, wonderful thoughts and insights on the internalization of Society's prejudices. We are all part of our circumstances. The poor have stigmas and guilts put upon them by Society that are difficult to overcome. These are crushing.

Paul and Lori, I, too, was appalled at the Alderman's attitude. He claims to do good, yet does so much harm and is so insulting, not to mention rude, inconsiderate, uncaring and plain nasty. I could go on. He is horrible.

[Greg]

Petra wrote: "Here's another one (illustrator unknown). Found it....the illustrator is Charles Green.

In this one, Toby looks colder and more introspective somehow, I find.

"

I like Green's illustration better than Leech's. Somehow it seems to better fit the spirit of the book for me.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Petra wrote: "Here's another one (illustrator unknown). Found it....the illustrator is Charles Green."



That's the edition I have, for the illustrations :) HERE is my review - not of the text - but that book. Charles Green illustrated all 5 Christmas books by Charles Dickens for Pears, during the early part of the 20th century, and I have them all now. I love his naturalistic work :)

[Petra]

I'm torn between the two.

Leech's illustration shows the wind and, the wind being such a strong image, brings this illustration deeply into the story. The illustration portrays the elements around Toby.....the cold, the wind, his discomfort & need.

Green's illustration shows the cold and desperation more, It shows Toby cornered, too....an indication of how Society keeps him trapped, cold, desperate and isolated.

[Paul]

Petra wrote: "First Quarter Summary:

Alderman Cute takes Trotty’s lunch and statically analyzes the “shrinkage” of tripe and how many people that shrinkage could have fed had the tripe not shrunk away. He accuses Trotty of denying his fellow man of food and starving them. Trotty is appalled and no longer wants to eat or enjoys seeing his lunch, which works out well since the Alderman ends his speech by eating the last piece of tripe. ."

'Twas ever thus and it continues to this day. In a brilliant piece of embedded social, political commentary, Dickens reminds us that a standard part of the social "weaponry" of the privileged, upper class is to ensure that the impoverished, lower class thinks of their enemies - indeed, the very cause of their poverty and impossible straits in life - as being someone other than the wealthy and the privileged themselves. Even as Alderman Cute steals Trotty's lunch, he has persuaded Trotty that he is stealing from his fellow citizens. And Trotty, convinced of the upright rectitude and fundamental morality of his betters does not even consider the hypocrisy and dishonesty of the man's actions.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Petra wrote: "I'm torn between the two..."

Well John Leech was Charles Dickens's chosen illustrator, and the first ever illustrator of A Christmas Carol the year before. So we know that his Art work is exactly what Charles Dickens specified :)

By the time Charles Green came on the scene, Charles Dickens had been dead for more than 40 years. For authenticity then, we have to go to John Leech. Still I like both (especially the atmospheric plate by Charles Green for the title page, in my review) and your descriptions are great Petra :)

[Petra]

Jean, I liked the illustration in your review, too. It's very gothic and, as you say, atmospheric.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

I'll dig out the book and try to upload a couple as we go, if you like :)

[Petra]

Paul, it's true even today that people are kept in "their place" in Society. However, it's easier Today to move from one place to another, I think (but may be mistaken)....but the poor are still trapped. Movement is extremely difficult. They need our help.

Yet, what is "help"? The Alderman believes he's helping, but he's causing more harm, if he's doing anything at all. He's not listening to or looking for what is needed.

The fallout falls on Toby and the other Poor.

[Petra]

Bionic Jean wrote: "I'll dig out the book and try to upload a couple as we go, if you like :)"

That would be great, if it's not onerous, Jean. The more illustrations, the better.
Thank you!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Will do :)

[Greg]

Petra wrote: "Paul, it's true even today that people are kept in "their place" in Society. However, it's easier Today to move from one place to another, I think (but may be mistaken)....but the poor are still tr..."

Do you think he is really trying to help Petra or even really believes he's helping? Or are the few words in that direction just for show?

He goes on and on about how he will "Put Down" everything and gives several examples of people he doesn't consider worthy of help, which by the end of his speeches seems like nearly everyone.

I do think what you say is absolutely true that often people try to help but go about it the wrong way as they aren't listening.

But in his case, it seems he'd rather not be bothered. He seems to feel people like Trotty are just an inconvenient nuisance and kind of wishes they were out of the way altogether.

That's just how it seemed to me though.

I do agree Paul; there's some gaslighting going on here with poor Trotty.

[Greg]

Bionic Jean wrote: "Petra wrote: "I'm torn between the two..."

Well John Leech was Charles Dickens's chosen illustrator, and the first ever illustrator of A Christmas Carol..."

Interesting Jean and Petra!

I thought I felt a touch of caricature in that one sketch by Leech, but it's hard to judge with just the one sketch. And now as I look back at it, I'm not sure?

I do love how lively and strong it is as you say Petra!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Greg wrote: "I thought I felt a touch of caricature in that one sketch by Leech, ..."

Oh yes! This is what Charles Dickens liked after all. His great friend was Hablot Knight Browne ("Phiz") who illustrated nearly all his novels (until they quarrelled) with strict instructions on each illustration by Charles Dickens. Some of them are great caricatures :) But I think "Phiz" must have had the patience of a saint!

[Greg]

Petra, thank you so much for the wonderful summary, background material, and images!! Especially love the portrait of the younger Dickens and that beautifully illustrated page by Doyle! You are adding a lot to my experience already - so nice to read with the group! :)

[Greg]

Bionic Jean wrote: "Oh yes! This is what Charles Dickens liked after all. His great friend was Hablot Knight Browne ("Phiz") who illustrated nearly all his novels (until they quarrelled) with strict instructions on each illustration by Charles Dickens. Some of them are great caricatures :) But I think "Phiz" must have had the patience of a saint!."

Ha, ha, it makes sense. :D

I'm always nervous about caricatures because there can be a fine line between 'funny' and 'mean spirited' in caricatures. But that's just my own personal thing. Dickens did have a wonderful sense of humor, and I can see why he would've wanted some humor in the illustrations for his work!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Here here Greg! Petra is always an excellent leader, and unearths a lot of great information for us too :)

[Paul]

Petra wrote: "Paul, it's true even today that people are kept in "their place" in Society. However, it's easier Today to move from one place to another, I think (but may be mistaken)....but the poor are still tr..."

Mobility may be easier today, to be sure, but it was then and it most definitely remains a privilege of wealth. And, insofar as the Alderman's motives are concerned, you're a great deal more charitable and good deal less judgmental than I am, if you believe he had it in mind to help Trotty with his ruminations on Tripe. I think they were so much bilgewater and were fully intended to pull the wool over Trotty's eyes, to put him and his daughter into their place, and to keep them there.

[Petra]

Greg and Paul, I think the Alderman, in his mean spirited and nasty way, means to have the Poor pull themselves up and "prove" that they "deserve" to be helped. If they won't help themselves, he won't help them. But he's there to serve them if they do the hard work.
I think that's his mind set. He sees himself as "helping", although what he's really doing is keeping the Poor downtrodden and helpless. His "help" is meaningless and hurtful and adds another boulder of obstacle to the Poor.

But perhaps I am looking for a bright spot. The Alderman was so pompous and down putting to Trotty and his family.

[Petra]

Jean, thank you!

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

In many of his novels and shorter pieces, Charles Dickens criticises the social policies which were put in place as a result of John Stuart Mill's brand of Utilitarianism (following on from Jeremy Bentham). This was interpreted as not making things easy for people, or they would not work. It's only a small step from this to believing that the poor are inherently "lazy". So the workhouse was made a place where everyone dreaded to go, with minimal food and rife with disease. Workers had to work until they dropped. Factories would have their windows high up, because nobody was meant to look through them, but to work, etc.

So the Alderman represents this point of view, which prevailed in policies of the time, and Charles Dickens is drawing attention to it.

[Greg]

Petra wrote: "Greg and Paul, I think the Alderman, in his mean spirited and nasty way, means to have the Poor pull themselves up and "prove" that they "deserve" to be helped. If they won't help themselves, he wo..."

It could be Petra. I can definitely see how it can be read either way.

(Edited) And Jean's post helps me even better to see what you mean.

[Janelle]

Reading this first chapter, I thought there were three moods in it. The opening descriptive bit, then Trotty and his daughter, which I thought was lovely, and then the alderman and the other horrible men which made me so angry. My favourite bit was the description of one of the men
“This gentleman had a very red face, as if an undue proportion of the blood in his body was squeezed up into his head; which perhaps accounted for his having also the appearance being rather cold around the heart.”

[Greg]

Janelle wrote: "My favourite bit was the description of one of the men
“This gentleman had a very red face, as if an undue proportion of the blood in his body was squeezed up into his head; which perhaps accounted for his having also the appearance being rather cold around the heart.”"

I liked that part too Janelle - such a vivid description, his face red as though it had all his blood squeezed up into it. And fitting too!

[Greg]

Bionic Jean wrote: "In many of his novels and shorter pieces, Charles Dickens criticises the social policies which were put in place as a result of John Stuart Mill's brand of Utilitaria..."

Makes sense Jean, like in Hard Times.

So, I guess the Alderman thinks his intentions for the 'poor' are positive in a sense, even if he's not at all empathetic or even trying to be? But that state of affairs is in his best interests, as it minimizes any help or support he'd have to give; so those beliefs are pretty convenient for him at least.

I wonder how many people with such views that held positions like the Alderman in those times honestly believed they were doing the right thing by not coddling the working people and by boosting the overall economy/efficiency? And how many were just taking the path of least resistance to do what was in reality most convenient for themselves? That era is so remote for me; it's hard to know. Though I suppose perhaps there was a mixture of both?

[Mary Lou]

I haven't read "The Chimes" before, so no spoilers, but as I read poor Trotty's despondency at the end of the chapter, I wondered if this story's going to be a precursor to George Bailey in "It's a Wonderful Life."

If so, in what may be an interesting coincidence, Frank Capra, who made "It's a Wonderful Life" called his production company Liberty Films, and all his films show the Liberty Bell chiming.

https://youtu.be/H_UNRenKGcA

I could be completely off base, but that possible Capra connection popped into my head.

[Franky]

I just started this one and echo the thoughts about the beginning of the book and the imaginative and illustrative way Dickens describes the wind and the chimes, almost making them personified. I've highlighted a few quotes because they are so vivid. I can already feel the sentimentality coming through in a few of the scenes and moments so far.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Greg - "And how many were just taking the path of least resistance to do what was in reality most convenient for themselves? "

Yes, you've nailed it :) The principle is timeless, even if the specifics are very much from that era. It is easy for people to affect to uphold principles or policies, but what they are actually doing is paying lip-service to them, and only selecting the aspects which benefit themselves. Charles Dickens suggests that the Alderman is self-serving, and that his righteousness is all bluster.

Hard Times is a good example; we find examples of (as Charles Dickens saw it) the destructive social and economic policies resulting from Utilitarianism, through many of his characters dotted throughout all his books, but they do come to the fore in that one, and are prominent in The Chimes, as Petra will show :)

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Mary Lou - I'm so glad you made it! And "It's a Wonderful Life" is probably my favourite film of all time :) I love Capra. Yes, you've got the feeling of this right away - a "George Bailey" character is definitely what we are rooting for!

Your idea about the bells is wonderful! I do hope it was the reason. Somehow I like to think of Frank Capra as someone who would have enjoyed reading Charles Dickens :)

We definitely have no spoilers here, so not to worry. And (also for anyone who does know the story), the links at the beginning of the thread go to Petra's summaries, and will help you know exactly where the read has got to.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Franky - Charles Dickens is the master at personification, isn't he? Whether it's a cold wind, a creaky chair or an tumbledown old house, I can feel myself smiling as soon as the passage starts. I think Sue picked this up first, this time :)

Right, I'm off to find the book with the illustrations in by Charles Green Petra, so it's over to you again now. I know exactly where it is ... it's just a bit awkward to get to ... ;)

[Jon]

The opening passage describing the bells was wonderful. I look forward to seeing how the come into the story.

The satire of the three men who put down Trotty (no wonder he is a depressive wondering he has any right to resist) is powerful as satire – the political economist from the left and the Tory going on about “the good old times” from the right – but it left me uncomfortable.

Dickens can often describe wicked oppressive people, but they have an energy, character and individuality that make them exciting to read about – Quilp, Squeers, Pecksniff or Fagin for example. But these three figures only seem to be described for the sake of satire.

[Paul]

Jon wrote: "The opening passage describing the bells was wonderful. I look forward to seeing how the come into the story.

The satire of the three men who put down Trotty (no wonder he is a depressive wonderin..."

They may be merely satire (it is a short story, after all) but it's still a pretty powerful piece of telling social commentary notwithstanding. And Dickens is certainly a master at casting side eye at England's problematic social structure.

[Bridget]

All the comments are so wonderful, I’m enjoying them so much. Thank you Petra for the information on Dickens stay in Italy. You inspired me to pull out my Forster biography and read that section on Italy.

Like others said, I really enjoyed how the bells and Trotty are so similar to each other. Both left out in the cold, and never enjoying time inside by the warm hearth. One part that made me smile was this:

”But Time had mowed down their sponsors, and Henry the Eighth had melted down their mugs; and they now hung, nameless and mugless, in the church-tower

It’s not a very important quote, but I really liked it. Love the reference to Henry the Eighth, who stole so much wealth from the churches of his day. Similar to how the wealthy in Trotty’s time keep wealth for themselves. It also ties in nicely with Trotty, who is also nameless and mugless. I don’t think the Alderman knows Trotty’s name. He just calls him by his job, “porter”. And poor Toby trots around like a beast of burden, which is how the Alderman views him.

[Greg]

Bridget wrote: "All the comments are so wonderful, I’m enjoying them so much. Thank you Petra for the information on Dickens stay in Italy. You inspired me to pull out my Forster biography and read that section on..."

Bridget, that paragraph was one of the few parts that confused me on my original reading. I didn't quite get what the "mugs" were when I read it. Is that another name for the tongue of the bell, the clapper that strikes the sides of the bell? Or are those just drinking mugs; but then how would that relate to the bells?

Love your pointing out King Henry VIII's pillaging of the churches! I didn't make that connection, but it fits. Makes more sense now!

[Bridget]

Honestly Greg, I’m not completely certain what the mug reference is either. So here are my guesses, and maybe someone else knows with certainty.

I don’t think it can be the clapper, because then these bells would make no sound. Though maybe Dickens is referring to other bells, that Henry VIII melted down for their metal leaving those church towers “mugless”.

Maybe it’s just a way to personify the bells. Giving them names and mugs as if they were people with whom one could go get a drink, and playing on the idea that bells look like upside down cups (or mugs).

[Paul]

Bridget wrote: "Honestly Greg, I’m not completely certain what the mug reference is either. So here are my guesses, and maybe someone else knows with certainty.

I don’t think it can be the clapper, because then t..."

Would "mug" have been used as a somewhat uncouth slang for "face" in Dickens' time? Then his personification of the bells would be even more obvious by making them "nameless and faceless" or "anonymous" much like he is portraying the street poor like Trotty.

[Greg]

Bridget wrote: "Honestly Greg, I’m not completely certain what the mug reference is either. So here are my guesses, and maybe someone else knows with certainty.

I don’t think it can be the clapper, because then t..."

Thanks Bridget! Your guess is as good as any I could come up with!

I was even thinking maybe bells were named like ships and there were drinking mugs with the name of the bell emblazoned on it that were formerly hanging somewhere (and now melted down and missing). But that was getting pretty elaborate and doesn't feel right either.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts!

[Bridget]

Greg - you are right, the ship metaphor probably doesn’t work but my goodness what a wonderful imagination you have!! I love it.

Paul - I think your thought about mugs as faces is spot on! That works really well! Thank you

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

I think all these considerations are correct!

Greg and Bridget - the reference to Henry VIII is to do with when he made himself the head of the church of England. Since we are told the Chimes had been baptised by Bishops "centuries ago", they would stop being considered as holy at that time. If I have it right, Catholics have images and objects which they consider holy, but C of E, whilst having representations, do not worship them (or perhaps at them).

Therefore the Chimes bells will have been deconsecrated, and this would date from the dissolution of the monasteries etc. by Henry VIII, when he ordered the assets of more and more religious institutions such as parish churches to be taken by the Crown, including the "melting down their [silver] mugs". The bells escaped this, being cast of bronze, not silver or gold, but remain in situ as bells, albeit not holy.

Paul - yes, Charles Dickens is using his whimsy here, as you suggest. The first use of "mug" for face, was in the 18th century, so it is a play on words

[Petra]

Mary Lou wrote: "I haven't read "The Chimes" before, so no spoilers, but as I read poor Trotty's despondency at the end of the chapter, I wondered if this story's going to be a precursor to George Bailey in "It's a..."

Mary Lou, interesting idea! I haven't read The Chimes either and am looking forward to what will come.

[Petra]

Paul, Franky, Jon, Dickens is a true master when it comes to social commentary. I often miss parts of what he's specifically referring to because I don't know the history of his times in much detail but I know it's all in there and I get the gist of what he's saying. Some themes are timeless. In the case of the Poor and other inequalities that's sad because so much Time has passed and we haven't moved forward much.