The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
Booker Prize for Fiction
>
2021 Booker Prize Shortlist Discussion
Tom wrote: "WndyJW wrote: "As a loyal American I wish Booker hadn’t admitted American novels. We haven’t welcomed Brits into our Pulitzer, Pen/Faulkner, NBA, etc., and we are no longer a British colony so what..."For me the LGBTQ felt markrt contrived in the novel.
Of course they chose the worst book for the shortlist. I’m curious about their reasoning for the inclusion of Great Circle.But, I’m happy that Fortune Men and NOITAT made it. The other three felt like a given to me.
For the most part, I think the judges chose well.
They had to include the worst book. It’s a rule!Although I actually rate Great Circle above a couple of others on the list from personal taste, swap it for Second Place and I would struggle to argue with the list.
Although a pity An island didn’t make it. That’s the book that would most have benefited from a shortlisting I suspect in terms of relative sales.
My Booker excitement faded away over a month ago, but the shortlist news is reviving it again, especially since all the books I have not yet read (Great Circle, The Fortune Men, Bewilderment, 1/3 of A Passage North) are there on the list. This is encouraging as they’re still part of the game. Yay!
I guessed five but I still have to read two more before I can commit fully to a winner prediction
I have not read 2 of these 6 (Fortune Men and Bewilderment). I will be getting Bewilderment on Sept 21st but Fortune Men is not available in e-format until March 2022.I did not expect to predict the list in any accuracy since it is hard for me to include books I have not yet read and I am still unclear as to the criteria the judges are using, other than "the finest fiction."
Of the 4 I have read, my current favorite is A Passage North. I can see any of the others winning, except for Great Circle, which to me is genre historical fiction. I read lots of this stuff for my other book groups and I am still scratching my head as to how it belongs on this list.
Joy D wrote: "I can see any of the others winning, except for Great Circle, which to me is genre historical fiction. I read lots of this stuff for my other book groups and I am still scratching my head as to how it belongs on this list."I agree. No book that has the line "He ached to kiss Sarah, to feel her slender torso against his." in it should be on the Booker list.
Anna wrote: "Joy D wrote: "I can see any of the others winning, except for Great Circle, which to me is genre historical fiction. I read lots of this stuff for my other book groups and I am still scratching my ..."HAHA that's a good example. I agree it's probably not right for this list, but it's not a bad book. It was obviously well-researched and it takes some doing to put together a 500+ page multi-period epic that actually works for a lot of people. I also think this will make a great TV series (and saw recently it was picked up).
Just realised it was a bad day for Faber - all three of their books failed to make the list. Given two were Cusk and Ishiguro they were also the biggest two surprises.By contrast - PRH got 4 nominations from their 6
Bloomsbury and Granta both had their longlisted book shortlisted
PanMacmillan and High House (only small press) failed with their longlisted books.
And this may be of interest - UK Book sales to date (shows how little a prize shortlisting - first book - or longlisting - next 4 - does particularly for hardbacks). No One is Talking About This - 6,751
The Promise - 5,617
Great Circle - 3,857
The Fortune Men - 2,554
A Passage North - 2,023
Bewilderment - 0
Tom, I’m fickle. I’ve said I’m not interested in Great Circle, then read a positive review and say I should read it, then I read a negative review and remember it’s over 600 pages and say I won’t read it. The length of the book doesn’t bother me, I’m not a Paulist about length, but I don’t want to attempt a long, bad book.
WndyJW wrote: "Tom, I’m fickle. I’ve said I’m not interested in Great Circle, then read a positive review and say I should read it, then I read a negative review and remember it’s over 600 pages and say I won’t r..."Got it. I know what you mean about long bad books. I will give up on long books pretty quickly because I don't want to waste time. My recommendation would be to try listening to it, if that's something you enjoy
Hugh, thank you for creating all the threads, doing the tallying, and linking titles. You do a lot, actually you do it all, and I know everyone appreciates the time and energy you spend here on our behalf. You quietly keep this group going so thank you.
Assembly was released in the US yesterday and I read it last night. It was definitely an unfortunate omission from the Booker longlist. Given it’s short length, though, I wonder if the judges didn’t deem it to be long form fiction. Or perhaps the publisher didn’t submit it for consideration because of that.
Its the only explanation I can see On the second though I think the judges have called it in
Ali Smith said about the book (and effectively addressed the length at the same time)
It’s a quiet, measured call to revolution. It’s about everything that has changed and still needs to change, socially, historically, politically, personally. It’s slim in the hand, but its impact is massive; it strikes me as the kind of book that sits on the faultline between a before and an after. I could use words like elegant and brilliantly judged and literary antecedents such as Katherine Mansfield/Toni Morrison/Claudia Rankine. But it’s simpler than that. I’m full of the hope, on reading it, that this is the kind of book that doesn’t just mark the moment things change, but also makes that change possible
I must admit its dampened the Booker for me as I cannot see another book on the shortlist which would be anything like as suitable a winner particularly for a British based book prize
What is really impressive about it for me (and I am not sure how obvious it is to a non-UK reader) is how in one brief passage (Let's say a boy grows up ... ) it effectively undermines those who would previously have thought they were on the same side of the political divide as the narrator/author
Incredibly well said GY. I’m urging people I know to read it. It needs to be in the mix and the subject of discussion, much more than it currently is.
Yes it's a real shame, really an impressive work!
I was initially frustrated by the length -- and wanted it to dig deeper -- but came to appreciate the genius of the book after Lark pointed out the following footnote in her review. 1. It is remarkable, even
in the ostensible privacy of my own thoughts
I feel (still)
compelled
to restrict what I say.
I agree Debra - Lark's review was great
I am hoping the Women's Prize will pick it up next year
A related question, which I should know the answer to: Is there transparency with which books are submitted for Booker consideration? Or is it just guesswork on our part?
No transparency at all DavidPublishers are keen to leave it that way so authors don't know their books were not even submitted.
I am reading Assembly at the moment. It’s slight on page numbers but the depth in literary excellence and literary thought achieved through the precise, wise lines: stunning. Brilliant and breathtaking. I will read it again soon. The novel our times very much needs. Tbh I don’t know how isn’t listed and The Great Circle made it. But then those kinds of questions are also why I love the Booker. Thank you to this group for drawing Assembly to my attention. Likely my read of the year thus far.
Agree Assembly is really quite remarkable
Pleased so many people here are reading and loving Assembly. I plan to do a talk on it at work to our diversity and inclusion network. But just hope it gets the wider attention it deserves via some prize recognition. Unfortunately I think it may be deemed ineligible for the Goldsmiths (Brown began her writing career with a creative writing course there)
At least so far none of the Books seem to be getting a significant bounce in sales - I have not seen any on bestseller lists (eg U.K. top 50) and in any week that only takes 3,000 sales. I think more than ever literary prizes are “winner takes all” - Pitanesi is selling loads (helped by being in paperback) and Shuggie Bain and Hamnet are still comfortably in the top 50 still every week.
There’s a good article in the Guardian on the Booker judging process (sorry can’t link!)Mostly familiar ground but a few snippets
2019 Confirms Evaristo had 3 judges support and Attwood 2 and Chair persuaded others to a joint winner.
2020, Box Hill from Fitzcarraldo was apparently vetoed by two judges “as unsuitable for recommending to friends and family. (One judge wryly described their eventual winner, Shuggie Bain, as, by contrast, “gay, but not too gay”.)”. Which is troubling. (Albeit even as a Fitzcarraldo fan, I didn’t think Box Hill was in the Shuggie league in literary terms)
In 2021 at the shortlist meeting, 3 books from longlist were a consensus to put through, 2 immediately rejected (based on pre voting) then a lot of debate about picking 3 from remaining 7. Sounds as if judges far from unanimous Althing no doubt when the winner is announced it apparently will be.
And this one I hadn’t seen before
The prize’s founders identified the appropriate mix of judges as a “chair”, a “reviewer”, a “publisher”, a “novelist” and an “outsider”. (The last might mean, a memo from 1970 outlined, an “intelligent actress … like Sheila Hancock or Fenella Fielding”.)
That article is where the quote I saw on Twitter came from, “ You realize how many perfectly fine novels are published,” (John Day) said. “Totally fine, creditable novels. At times I just got a bit depressed by the relentless OK-ness of much of contemporary fiction.”
It's a fascinating article - thanks for flagging. I know there was a question earlier about how books are flagged for Booker review. And the answer is...muddy.But there are mind-bending complications. On top of that one book – which might represent 100% of an imprint’s annual fiction list if it’s a small indie like Galley Beggar Press, or as little as 10% for a big publisher, like Jonathan Cape – any novel by a previously shortlisted author may be submitted. In addition, imprints that have had books longlisted in the past five years can submit additional titles, on a sliding scale of up to four extra. On top of that, each imprint can nominate another five works to be “called in”, if desired, by the judges. Finally, judges are also entitled to “call in” any other eligible book they please. No one I spoke to, except the Booker prize’s freelance company secretary Eve Smith, could remember all of these rules offhand.
I’m a bit curious which 3 were consensus picks and which 2 were immediately rejected. If I had to guess…Bewilderment, Passage North, and Fortune Men would be my bets for the consensus picks.
I would have said Bewilderment, Promise and Fortune Men - although this group loves Passage North its a bit too esoteric/wordy for many Booker followers (a lot of ex-members of this group are not fans). I think I am in a minority of 1 on ProiseSeems almost impossible to me that everyone liked No One Is Talking About This as its so marmite
And I really cannot believe that they all liked Great Circle (surely not)
And who is the judge who sulked as their nailed on top choice suddenly lost its support at shortlist stageI could only think Rowan Williams and Light Perpetual but that is pure speculation
Yes Light Perpetual was my guess for that as well. With the Promise, I was speculating that the retired parson might have had objections to its inclusion. It has a particularly unflattering portrayal of Christianity, albeit the Dutch Reformed variety.
Which bears no resemblance to Christianity Williams would be much closer to Tutu
That article was lots of fun to read. And actually it helps dilute my annoyance at all the mediocre books frequently picked up by the Booker to be reminded that they are deliberately treading a middle ground.Although I knew the rules I don't think it had really sunk in how limiting they are... how many books are never in the running at all.
It is interesting that the Booker is proud that they are (spoiler alert - I suspect they aren't) the only prize where all the judges read all the books.But that does then come with a practical limit on the number of entries that one can reasonably allow - the 150ish type level - and rules designed to achieve this.
Or they could allow unlimited entries, but have to have more of a weeding out process eg only one judge reads a book.
But then the risk is Marmite books might not even make it to consideration by other judges.
The International Booker is in a nice position that the number of entries, unrestricted, still works with the every-judge-every-book model
This isn’t the appropriate place for this, but this is where the action is. I’m happy to announce that a future reader, Theodore Bryant Strand, joined the world on October 7th at 2:13pm. I changed my profile pic to a picture of my amazing wife Chelsea with baby Theo. Mom and baby are doing great and recovering in the hospital for a few days (c-section) before we hopefully head home Sunday. Not sure I’ll have much reading time in the coming weeks, but I’m not complaining!
Fantastic news and congratulations.
Congrats Tom! I hope you picked your first book for a bedtime story.
Congratulations Tom. My wife and I used to fight (not literally!) to be the ones who got to read Winnie-the-Pooh to our children at bedtime.
Julia Donaldson all the way now
Thanks guys!! He’s already got a fully stocked bookcase in his room. My favorite as a kid was chicka chicka boom boom
What wonderful news! Hearty congratulations to you and Chelsea, Tom! I loved reading Chicka chicka Boom Boom out loud to my daughters when they were younger, as well as some classic Dr. Seuss books.
Fantastic news! Beautiful family!! Congratulations!!
The Mookse and the Gripes
Books mentioned in this topic
The Conservationist (other topics)Il conservatore (other topics)
Light Perpetual (other topics)
The Promise (other topics)
The Promise (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Anuk Arudpragasam (other topics)Damon Galgut (other topics)
Patricia Lockwood (other topics)
Nadifa Mohamed (other topics)
Richard Powers (other topics)
More...
Don't get me started on Radiohead. The David Mitchells of pop music.
And the rot set in when they decided be trendy and have an album with the word computer in the title. Bit like how writing a novel about dumb memes rather dumbs down a novel.