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Little Dorrit
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Buddy Read of Little Dorrit mid-Sept onwards with Janelle, Bridget, Lori and others
So Rigaud(now Lagnier) has managed to get off the murder charge for lack of evidence and it appears both he and John Baptist are headed to England. How are they going to tie into the rest of the story? This chapter was the end of the third instalment. Dickens has left the readers with lots to think about.
Interesting how Rigaud was so infamous in the area of Marseille that he couldn’t be safely released immediately when acquitted. He becomes more and more odious. Love how Jean Baptist leaves him behind in the morning. I wonder how long he will be able to be free of him.
Janelle wrote: "Bridget, I must be more cynical than you! I think Mr Meagles is supportive because he sees an opportunity to make money.With regard to the barnacles living on the edge of the rich neighbourhood. ..."
I think you’ve nailed it, Janelle!
What a bully Rigaud/Lagnier is! John Baptist has reason to be afraid of him so I hope he has chosen his direction well and hasn’t run towards Paris where Rigaud might catch up with him. I notice that Rigaud is not protesting his innocence. Did he when he was in Marseilles? I can’t remember.
I almost think this was expected for these two to meet again. A little predictable but adds to the suspense of relabeling or recreating Rigaud into Lagnier. He is definitely a bully to Jean Baptist. And I too hope that JB can steer very clear of the newly named, Lagnier. We have speculated about JB’s possible connection to the Clennam’s business since he was a smuggler. But not sure how this storyline will mesh, but it’s Dickens and he will have a masterful plan.
I don’t think Rigaud professed innocence in Marseille. The story he told clearly indicated he pushed his wife bu5 he told it as if it was an accident. So, he skirted the truth.
I love this Furniss picture of these two. Thanks for adding it Janelle.
Janelle wrote: "Bridget, I must be more cynical than you! I think Mr Meagles is supportive because he sees an opportunity to make money.With regard to the barnacles living on the edge of the rich neighbourhood. ..."
You are probably right Janelle (which makes you a better reader not a better cynic :-)
Truthfully, I found that passage with Mr. Meagle and Mr. Doyce confusing. At first I thought Mr. Meagle, who was overheated and read in the face, was bullying Mr. Doyce. But then as they told the story, I got the impression Mr. Meagle was forcibly removing Mr. Doyce from the Circumlocution Office to save him from the Barnacles. Then at the end Mr. Doyce says I can feel gratitude ... towards our mutual friend [Mr. Meagle]. Many's the day, and many's the way in which he has backed me. But I can see how that backing means money on Mr. Meagles part, which is probably what you were thinking.
I love that picture too, especially the size of that mustache!I love reading these Victorian novels where travelers share rooms together. Seems like quite often a second boarder is added to a room after the first occupant has already fallen asleep. Can you imagine that? Waking up with some stranger in your room?
I guess we still have Youth Hostels that work in a similar fashion.
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Summary starts about a third of the way down."
Hi Janelle, I've edited it now so it is separate in the following post. (I had saved that, as GR was being silly at the time and not letting me post edits!)
So if you edit yours, I'll remove this too :)
What I love when I read Dickens is how you know that all the characters he introduces will come back and be integral to the story. Rigaud and John Baptist are back- I’m looking forward to seeing how they tie in with the rest of the story.
Just wondering about the name of the inn, “Break of Day”. Our friend leaves at sunrise the next morning.....
Do you think there’s more significance to the name, Rod?I just thought it was ironic as Rigaud arrived in the night.
Link to Chapter 12 summaryJean also has information about Bleeding Heart Yard (a real place) in the following comments.
Matthew McFadyen as Arthur Clennam 2008
The Plornishes 2008
The Plornishes in the still look far better off than I imagined from their description. That’s the problem with dramatisations, I suppose.I really enjoyed the bargaining with Captain Maroon. Plornish shows a talent there that he might employ elsewhere, given the chance and the initiative.
I hope Tip makes the most of the opportunity Arthur is giving him but I sadly doubt it. He’s a wide boy and always will be, I think.
Jean - really interesting information re Bleeding Heart Yard and great to see a contemporary photograph. Thank you.
One question I have re Dickens’ children. Didn’t he have a son named Plorn? Or do I have that wrong. I just recall it was an odd name and seemed like that of this character. It would seem a strange thing to find a name like your own in your father’s book.The bartering for Tip’s debt was fascinating. And also I enjoyed the description of the name of the yard.
Janelle wrote: "Do you think there’s more significance to the name, Rod?I just thought it was ironic as Rigaud arrived in the night."
Well, it struck me that Marseilles is so bright. Light is good, dark is bad, right? Then the leaving at daybreak with the sum coming up. Seems odd the inn has that name. I always read too much into things.
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Yes, it's his nickname for Edward, Sue. I posted a thumbnail sketch about his sons in the "Charles Dickens's Family" thread a few days ago LINK HERE.
You're welcome Fiona :)
Nice catch Rod!
I rather like that insight, Rod. Well done.My favorite part of this chapter is when Plornish is praising his acquaintance with Mr. Dorrit precisely because he has so much debt and Arthur says Without admiring him for that .... I am very sorry for him. Which makes Plornish pause and rethink his view of Mr. Dorrit.
I suppose the next thing Arthur will do is go track down Mr. Casby. I'm very curious to know why he is an old friend of Arthur.
Oh that does make sense Rod! There is a lot about light and dark so far and there was that really dark conversation in the inn about some people just being evil.I was wondering about the nickname of his son too, Sue. Plorn would’ve only been 3 when this was published, so which came first the character name or the nickname? My guess it was nickname first, then Dickens has named a character after him… why this character? I have no guesses and couldn’t find anything on a quick search.
Did I miss the part that tells how Arthur already connected the Plornishes as being the ones who helped Amy get the needlework job with his mother? I was surprised when Arthur asked them so directly how they helped Amy obtain the job.
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There are quite a few Charles Dickens's novels where light and dark play a big part, and we can pick up motifs throughout. Just as water does, it often indicates something important :)
In chapter 8, Amy tells Arthur: “We have a friend, father and I—a poor labouring man, but the best of friends—and I wrote out that I wished to do needlework, and gave his address. And he got what I wrote out displayed at a few places where it cost nothing, and Mrs Clennam found me that way, and sent for me.”And it’s in the next chapter, Little Mother, when Arthur goes for a walk with Amy the next morning, he asks her the name of her friend.
Oh, wow thanks Jean and Janelle for the quick response. I do remember that conversation Janelle now that you've refreshed my memory. And Jean, I agree I think Bridget's prediction is a logical next step for Arthur. Very curious. This tale is very multi-dimensional and I'm still waiting to find out what happens with Rigaud/Lagnier and Jean Baptist!
There seems to be such a stream of people being introduced in this story. I wonder who will be returning and who may not. Knowing Dickens, any or all may return at any moment. Dickens’ descriptions of his characters continue to be wonderful and so exacting. And they also continue the satire enormously in Little Dorrit. I have read the next chapter where there are more excellent examples.
I still find it odd that Dickens would have his son and a character share a name, well almost the same name, even though it was his son’s nickname. (And thanks Jean for the information on his sons. I did read it which is probably why Plorn felt familiar.) Perhaps Plorn wasn’t an unusual nickname in Dickens’ time.
Long chapter with more new characters.Flora is such a funny character but I do find it uncomfortable humour as Dickens is so cruel. He is attracted to young silly women and then finds it awful when they get old and are still silly? What else could they be?
The end of the chapter where Jean Baptist (although not named, it has to be him!) is hit by a mail coach makes me wonder where Rigaud is. And a nice coincidence that Arthur is there to translate!
Dickens does seem to have a type, Janelle! I enjoy the extraordinary characters he invents such as Mr F’s aunt and Pancks. They’re no doubt loosely based on real people but he adds such wonderful detail to them.It seems to me that those who should be controlled are the ones doing the controlling. Both Flintwinch and Pancks appear to be the ‘little coaly steam-tug’ taking the larger ship in tow. I like the way Dickens plays with that metaphor in this chapter.
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Um, I don't think this is a criticism as such, because the author I think of as slotting women into "types" most, is Jane Austen! Yet her writing is brilliant, and readers don't pick on her for making every heroine young and intelligent, and almost every middle-aged or old one as extremely silly, or cantankerous.
Charles Dickens, on the other hand, is sometimes criticised for his women - yet he creates a huge variety of women, across all ages and classes :) We particularly commented on this several times during Dombey and Son, which has a huge cast of wonderful complex, female characters.
So I'm trying to think of which female characters you will have met so far: Mrs Clennam, Amy Dorrit, Fanny Dorrit, Maggy, Mrs Meagles, "Pet" Meagles, "Tattycoram", Miss Wade, Mrs Plornish, Flora Finching and Mr F's aunt. (Sorry if I've missed any out.) Just think of all these separately for a moment. Aren't they all individuals in your mind? I think all these characters are very diverse and not similar at all! And you're about to meet another complex female character who is a delight - oh and a fabulous cameo later :)
Yes, they are all important and follow their own story, as you suspected.
I personally love Flora Finching, and think Charles Dickens did too. That's why he could give her such verisimilitude; she is comic, but has a heart of gold. It is affectionately drawn, and yes she is from life. (Much more on that in the original thread, which no doubt you'll spot Janelle :) )
However, I also think that sometimes readers decide a character is a "type" because they display attributes we personally dislike, so we pick up on that. We might know someone a bit like Flora in terms of her fussiness, very like a Jane Austen type. But wait until you see what Charles Dickens has in store for Flora. She might end up being one of my favourites :)
I actually just wish I had no idea about how he treated his wife, then I probably wouldn’t have a reaction to what seems an older woman character he’s making fun of, that’s all. No need to defend Dickens!As for Jane Austen, I am one of the few people who can’t stand her :)
I would rather read a book by Dickens about Flora and Dora any day :))
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There's probably a good reason why Jane Austen asked her sister Cassandra to destroy her letters. I have a feeling she must have been an unpleasant person to know in real life, to make such waspish observations :(
It's not so much needing to "defend" Charles Dickens ... I hope I pointed some features of his writing out. Please don't worry Janelle - there had been no attack to defend. But reading that you found this "uncomfortable humour as Dickens is so cruel" ... I do feel this is subjective: your personal take. Yes, as you say, it's a negative reaction because of your prior knowledge of the man Charles Dickens in real life, as opposed to the author who makes you laugh, on the page.
It is possible to find the episode extremely funny: a sort of farce, and I ask you to bear with Flora Finching for a while. There is a poignancy about her, and her twitteriness is delightful, but I don't want to say too much.
And I thought it timely to point out that that a "type", as Fiona called it, is not a criticism unless the character has no depth apart from their first impression (which is clearly not the case with Charles Dickens's characters. They are not stereotypes.)
Remember the "Aunt Betsey fan club"?! We liked her in David Copperfield, because she was bold: an independent woman, (which Flora is not). She fitted in with our modern ideas of a straight-talking, courageous woman - but she was eccentric, and older, like Flora Finching, and painted in just as ridiculous a fashion! Can we say they are a type? I don't personally think so - they are individuals - but of similar age and gender.
However, since you've raised the question of "defence" Janelle, I will disclose that in England we did not study any works by Charles Dickens at all, when I was at school (I'm not sure about Scotland, Fiona) as they were not deemed literary enough! He was not in the top drawer as far as Victorian novels went, and the critics disparaged him. I think he is more in favour now, thank goodness but every so often we still come across those who say he "can't write women". *Sigh* :( Perhaps they should be invited here to discover more of his works.
This is a wonderful book :) I'm sure you'll all love it, and you're doing a great job organising it, Janelle, thank you! Sorry to have got off the subject a bit.
Janelle, I do have to agree with you on how knowing how Dickens treated his wife somewhat cooled your opinion of the author. I learnt recently that he actually tried to have her committed to an asylum, but was unsuccessful. Does make you look at his portrayal of middle aged / older women differently.
Of course, I totally admire his talents and he is certainly not the first author who has done despicable things, so in my mind, I separate the two.
It would be an interesting topic point to delve into, but that would be totally separate from Little Dorrit.
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For instance Angela Burdett-Coutts, who helped him found "Urania House", for "wayward" girls? (They come into all his novels in one way or another e.g. "Tattycoram"'s name is from a similar benefactor.) This does not excuse him, but it was a different time, and he could not afford a divorce. If he had not felt agonies inside about it all, perhaps we would not have such powerful writing?
Lord Byron and Sir Walter Scott ended up writing to pay off their debts. Other writers of classics have been in prison, or drug addicts, or murderers ... where do we draw the line?
We need to concentrate on Little Dorrit. As you both say, we have to keep a writer's identity separate from their writing - at least while we are reading!
Thanks for this analysis, Jean. I suppose I was particularly referring to the main love interests and thinking of how similarly coquettish and silly Flora and Dora both are. You’re right to point out that we’ve only just met Flora. My first impressions are not good but I’m prepared to give her time!Your analysis made me think of Mrs Western, Sophia’s aunt in The History of Tom Jones, a Foundling. A marvellously strong, independent, educated woman and quite the feminist. Until it comes to marriage, that is, when she’s very traditional. Again, although I know many of Dickens’ characters are taken from his own life, I wonder if Mrs Western made an impression on him? He does enjoy creating strong female characters.
In answer to your question, we only read A Christmas Carol at school. I don’t know if it was because Dickens wasn’t considered literary enough. Maybe it was because his other books would have taken too long to read? We read a very broad range, from George Eliot to Alan Sillitoe.
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What a great idea! It sounds very plausible.
Flora does feel a little like a mature version of Flora. I think Janelle thinks this too :)
Your school syllabus was probably similar to mine, and perhaps the length is partly why we read no 18th century novels either. But it's sad to think some of our contemporaries would never get to read even extracts from Charles Dickens's funniest or most tragic stories.
While Flora may seem silly, I don’t think she is selfish or mean. She has taken on her deceased husband’s aunt very kindly and appears to be the only one that can manage her well. I think she has an opportunity to catch up over all the years she’s not been able to communicate with Arthur and I can understand her feeling the need to want to remedy any misgivings or bad feelings from their previous connection that fell through. Arthur also has a good heart but he sees that the past will remain the past with Flora. I loved the section where it explained what type of man he became as a result of his upbringing. It shows what a man of character he is because human nature would have Arthur turning out much more negatively. But Dickens does write lovable characters who bring themselves up out of their bad upbringings (David Copperfield) very well. He was a dreamer in such wise, because he was a man who had, deep-rooted in his nature, a belief in all the gentle and good things his life had been without. Bred in meanness and hard dealing, this had rescued him to be a man of honourable mind and open hand. Bred in coldness and severity, this had rescued him to have a warm and sympathetic heart. Bred in a creed too darkly audacious to pursue, through its process of reserving the making of man in the image of his Creator to the making of his Creator in the image of an erring man, this had rescued him to judge not, and in humility to be merciful, and have hope and charity.
I do appreciate your comment. Jean! I think at some point I would like to read a biography to get to know him better. He was great at fleshing out the social issues of the day- I will give him credit for that. But I find it interesting that for a man who cared so much for the common man, he could turn around and treat his wife like she didn’t count. I guess a man is a man when it comes to getting what he wants. But as I said, he is not the only one to behave as he behaved, and I can separate the man from the author.
I liked Dickens' portrayal of Flora. Reading her long winded passages (without commas) reminded me of reading Mr. Micawber's long winded passages. I also think her place in the story right now is to illustrate aspects of Arthur's personality. Lori talked about this too above, and I loved the long quote she gave us, its one I also marked in this chapter. I think Flora was always a silly, giggly girl rather than she became one as she grew older. And Arthur just remembered her through the lens of his youth, and then his impressions grew stronger with nostalgia. Maybe because she was the light hearted antithesis of his cold mother.
I found Pancks to be more like Mr. Meagles than Flintwinch. I don't sense malice in Pancks the way I do with Flintwinch. I find Pancks to be another illustration of a "practical" man. When he asks What else are you made for? I don't think he's being rhetorical, I think he's being straight forward. He's trapped in this crazy economic, bureaucratic system and he's just trying to "make money". With Flintwinch I suspect some revenge, or deviance or something like that, still not sure what exactly it is, but its of an evil nature.
I also really enjoyed the Mariner motif of this chapter with Pancks as the Tug Boat, Mr. Casby as the big ship and Flora as a mermaid, it felt like Arthur was on some sort of a cruise all evening. Though definitely not a pleasure cruise!
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And I hear you Antoinette :)
I found Flora’s speech very funny, the Chinese comments, eg ‘pagodan dissenter’, she even knows she’s silly ‘but I’m running into nonsense again’. From my Penguin notes it says “Flora’s speech is characteristically well-laced with quotation but highly inaccurate, and many of her references are generic rather than specific. Her conversations in later chapters draw heavily on commonplace phrases from romance fiction, song and popular poetry, making particular allusions difficult to identify.”
I’d imagine then that she was even funnier for contemporary readers.
Also in the notes it says that Dickens was not exaggerating about the mail coaches, they had to run on time and were very dangerous.
Antoinette wrote: "Janelle, I do have to agree with you on how knowing how Dickens treated his wife somewhat cooled your opinion of the author. I learnt recently that he actually tried to have her committed to an asy..."Oh I’ve been misunderstood. I love Dickens :))
He’s my favourite Victorian author! I was merely stating my initial reaction to the character knowing how he treated his wife and the woman he based the character on (he just stopped writing to her).
I have read more Dickens than any other classic English author (Hardy is probably second, I’ve read all the Brontes). I have read Little Dorrit before but I don’t remember Flora, I don’t even remember her from the TV show, the still didn’t jog my memory.
Sorry for distracting from the chapter .
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Not at all Janelle - I think all of us who commented about it did a bit of that. I certainly did :) But on the other hand, I think we have had a great discussion today. We've covered some wider ground, and looked at aspects of Charles Dickens's portrayals of various women, but also the latter comments have been dead on topic - very insightful and specific.
Still ... I had a niggling doubt, and am really pleased that you said this, just in time before I sign off for the day (getting on for midnight). Thank you :)
This really is a fabulous buddy read, and there is so much more to come!
I loved the final paragraph of this chapter:“This was Little Dorrit's party. The shame, desertion, wretchedness, and exposure of the great capital; the wet, the cold, the slow hours, and the swift clouds of the dismal night. This was the party from which Little Dorrit went home, jaded, in the first grey mist of a rainy morning.”
This was a sweet and tender chapter and we get to see from the perspective of Little Dorrit which was lovely. She is the epitome of loveliness and humility. Her concern for others shines through and it is often at her expense. I was curious about the woman that made her anxious that her sister told her about. She made a comment about this woman but nothing else was explained. Hmmmm....
I was curious if there was anything to make of the mean woman who chastised Maggy for having a child out in the streets who had a strong reaction when she realized Amy was a woman not a child.
This chapter seems to solidify Amy's identity as a grown woman and not a child. When she so politely tells Arthur that she'd rather be called Little Dorrit as everyone calls her instead of child, as he always does, she seems to be exerting who she is inside and not what others view her as from the outside. It's as if she says, I appreciate you wanting to protect me and keep me safe, Arthur, but I'm able to do that myself and have been doing it for years.
Janelle, I also loved that last quote. I loved the clouds and stars being the dance at her party.
And Flintwinch is following her. I wonder how this will play out with Arthur and Flintwinch and his mother in regards to what they actually know about Amy?
Janelle - I love that quote too. Lori - your first paragraph sums up Little Dorrit perfectly.You can sense Dickens’ anger at the inequality and the poverty in London. His description of Covent Garden covers everything from the wealthy theatregoers to starving, homeless children so that we feel angry with him.
As Maggy and Little Dorrit wander the streets, we see a London that has probably not changed so very much. Homeless people sleep in any nook or cranny they can find. Vulnerable people with mental health issues wander about accosting strangers, in danger of harming themselves. It’s very sad and I’m sure Dickens believed that such poverty would have been eliminated by now. It should have been.
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And for some thoughts on the older man as protector of the younger woman in Charles Dickens's novels LINK HERE.
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It broke my heart to have Little Dorrit and Maggy alone on the streets until morning. I'm so curious what it means that Arthur had no suspicion that they ran any risk of being houseless until morning; had no idea of the truth, until long, long afterwards. How is he going to find out about it later? Flintwinch maybe? That is so disturbing Flintwinch is following Little Dorrit - or is it the Flintwinch Doppelganger who is following her??
Little Dorrit is so clever to have Maggy as her companion so that they can pass as a mother and child. It miraculously keeps them from being accosted many times. I suppose without this ruse they might be mistaken for fallen women. The woman who chastised Maggy was, I think, a prostitute. When she calls herself a poor lost creature that's what she means. That's why the women is so mad at Maggy for bringing a child out in the night; she might assume Maggy is a prostitute as well. Of course LD knows this woman is a prostitute, so when she extends kindness to her without reservation or hesitation it just melts my heart. LD is so kind, good and also brave and strong.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
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The Chimes (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
Dombey and Son (other topics)
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John Baptist runs away from his patron by Harry Furniss 1910