Buddy Read of Little Dorrit mid-Sept onwards with Janelle, Bridget, Lori and others Showing 151-200 of 1,118

[Lori]

I like that description of Little Dorrit, Janelle. So true. However, she has proven that she shouldn't be pushed aside for being small or weak.

I'm saddened that Bob couldn't find a way to leave his property savings to her. I wonder if it amounted to much of anything. I'm sure she would have used it to benefit her family in some way because she is definitely the only one who has direction and sense, as you said Bridget.
This sums her up perfectly:
It is enough that she was inspired to be something which was not what the rest were, and to be that something, different and laborious, for the sake of the rest.

And to have to keep up a facade to her father that she and her siblings were earning money outside of the prison is really senseless. At this point, who cares whether his gentility is crushed knowing that his children lifted a finger so that they could eat. I loved this: So, over and above other daily cares, the Child of the Marshalsea had always upon her the care of preserving the genteel fiction that they were all idle beggars together.
It really doesn't make sense to me (I know, modern sensibilities) that taking the money from other "collegians" was ok for her father, but working wouldn't be ok. I do understand that this was the nature of the gentility.
And that brother of hers, goodness gracious. Just like his father as a prisoner now. The apple doesn't fall far, does it?

[Lori]

There is some excellent discussion in the Chapter 7 summary link above regarding Tip and who Dickens may have written his character to be like. Apparently a couple of Dickens' boys got into debt and began to take after grandpa a little too much. It's not necessarily set in stone like other characters he creates based on real people like Miss Mowcher or Uriah Heep in David Copperfield. But it's quite interesting to ponder and Jean gives an excellent run down of all of Dickens' boys and their lives. Just FYI if you have time.

[Janelle]

I agree it’s kinda strange that no one wants to offend Mr Dorrits sensibilities yet he’s hardly being much of a head of the family by pretending that his children aren’t keeping him (plus the donations). I think Fanny working as a dancer (which isn’t that far above being a prostitute in Victorian standards) is probably something he would definitely want to ignore though. It’s all about keeping up the facade.

[Sue]

Watching Amy’s interactions within her family and within Marshalsea makes me more and more curious about her role with Mrs. Clennam. She is not a “see-no-evil” etc type of person. She does observe her world closely. I am wondering why she is there.

[Sue]

Thanks for that clarification, Janelle. I was wondering about Fanny’s dancing and how it would be viewed.

[Janelle]

Link to Chapter 8 summary



Little Dorrit and her father by Sol Eytinge

[Bridget]

Sue wrote: "Thanks for that clarification, Janelle. I was wondering about Fanny’s dancing and how it would be viewed."

me too, thanks Janelle!

[Janelle]

Amy’s father is shameless asking Arthur for money in front of her!
And it’s revealed why she eats alone at the Clennams… no wonder she’s so tiny, giving all her food away.

[Bridget]

Sue wrote: "Watching Amy’s interactions within her family and within Marshalsea makes me more and more curious about her role with Mrs. Clennam. She is not a “see-no-evil” etc type of person. She does observe ..."

That's a good point Sue. Little Dorrit sees more than people give her credit for. She must have some interesting thoughts about Mrs. Clennam and Flintwinch.

[Sue]

That’s what I’m thinking, Bridget. And probably about Arthur now too. And who knows who else may have wandered into that place in recent years.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

I'm really enjoying all these comments :) It's like meeting an old friend, and reliving the novel all over again!

And Lori - thanks for mentioning the group read thread and discussion ... Isn't Charles Dickens's satirical portrait of Mr Dorrit fantastic? Yes, he is well liked and respected, but still taking advantage of the other prisoners' respect for his "gentility": all the worst aspects of it :( Little Amy Dorrit is really quite modern by comparison, and has more in common with present day attitudes, to think there is something wrong with this.

Oh, but what I was going to say is thanks for alerting me to the bit about Charles Dickens's children, which I've now added to the "Charles Dickens's family" thread, for easy reference. I don't think it existed at the time :)

[Lori]

You’re welcome, Jean. That’s the reason I don’t want to miss the previous links. You provide so much rich info and the discussions are wonderful to glean extra thoughts I might not have had myself. For chapter 7 I commented here before reading the old thread and was happy to find my thoughts were one in the same with others.

Did anyone catch Arthur watching Amy walk home to the prison at the end of Ch 7? She takes extra precautions to conceal where she is headed but now I think he knows her secret. I wonder what he will do with this info?

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

That's a good idea (commenting first now and then) - and one of the reason I like reading with others, (as well as alone) - as we often have the same thoughts. Which of course shows how carefully Charles Dickens is controlling what he reveals and eking out the information bit by bit :)

[Lori]

Such a revealing chapter! I’m a bit surprised that Arthur followed Amy but now he is even more suspicious of his mother’s motives for employing Amy. Yes, Amy’s father is spineless about the money but nevertheless, she supports him and does everything for him. Arthur is not the least bit fond of money as he mentioned in a previous chapter. He cares nothing for it so it’s a bit of a contrast to see how Mr. Dorrit holds his money dear. I think it’s all about the game he’s playing and in his mind he has elevated himself to be what he is maybe in order to lessen his situation. He is shameless though. It’s interesting how his fellow prisoners are called collegians and he is the “president of their college”. I guess he must keep up this playacting so that he can continue the genteel facade even while in prison. It’s remarkable to me. Has he gone a bit mad?

[Fiona]

The description of Frederick Dorrit at the opening of this chapter is wonderful. We’re given every colourful detail down to he had a penny worth of snuff in a little packet of whitey-brown paper, from which he slowly comforted his poor old blue nose with a lengthened-out pinch. Just wonderful!

I’m glad we now have a better picture of the Dorrit family and particularly of Amy. Arthur Clennam could change her life but she won’t leave her father. Even if Arthur arranged to pay off his debts, he wouldn’t want to leave Marshalsea now.

[Bridget]

I loved that description of Fredercik Dorrit too. His blue nose matched perfectly with his threadbare coat, once blue. I think this character might be based on someone Charles Dickens saw once. The notes section of my edition has reprinted some of Dickens' outlines, and for this chapter he makes this note:
"Ruined brother -- (the clarinet player I saw at the Ambigu in Paris)"

Its interesting to me that Arthur has spent the last twenty years taking care of his father, and in many ways Amy has done the same thing for her father. I think this will give Arthur more compassion for Amy's situation.

[Bridget]

Lori wrote: "it’s interesting how his fellow prisoners are called collegians and he is the “president of their college”. I guess he must keep up this playacting so that he can continue the genteel facade even while in prison. It’s remarkable to me. Has he gone a bit mad?..."

I was wondering if he was mad as well.

I'm so glad you also pointed out the use of the words "collegian" and "college". Its such an effective way to bring out the hypocrisy of the situation all the people are in at the Marshalsea. And it shows how Mr. Dorrit is romanticizing the awful situation he and his family are in. I would say its a situation he created, but I'm not sure yet that is true. I wonder if he wasn't some kind of scapegoat for the Clennams.

[Sue]

It feels as if he is a scapegoat for the Clennams. Certainly Arthur is beginning to feel that way now that he has seen Amy’s father and has a sense of his past. He knows his mother is capable of anything in business.

I can’t see Mrs. Clennam having Little Dorrit working for her solely out of charity though. She doesn’t seem to have a charitable bone in her body. Perhaps she simply would not want Little Dorrit working anywhere else where old memories of business problems might resurface and cause her problems.

[Bridget]

Sue wrote: "It feels as if he is a scapegoat for the Clennams. Certainly Arthur is beginning to feel that way now that he has seen Amy’s father and has a sense of his past. He knows his mother is capable of an..."

I think you are onto something Sue. Maybe Mrs. Clennam feels guilty? Maybe she needs to atone for a past sin? Affrey describes Little Dorrit as a "whim" of Mrs. Clennams, but it doesn't seem like Mrs. Clennam would ever have a whim, does it??

[Fiona]

Bridget wrote: "I loved that description of Fredercik Dorrit too. His blue nose matched perfectly with his threadbare coat, once blue. I think this character might be based on someone Charles Dickens saw once. The..."

That’s fascinating re the inspiration for Frederick. Thanks, Bridget.

[Sue]

I don’t think very highly of Mrs. Clennam so rather than thinking of her performing some form of atonement, I’m wondering if she is keeping Amy close to her so that no one else will learn of her story , no one else could possibly guess of their supposed connection (supposed by me, that is).

[Janelle]

Link to Chapter 9 summary



Arthur with Frederick Dorrit by James Mahoney 1873

[Janelle]

This chapter is named Little Mother which is what Maggy calls her. Maggy seems to be the only one who appreciates what Amy does for her. Amy is the one who tidies her uncle's house, she does her brother and sisters washing etc. They seem to just take it for granted.
Dickens always shows great compassion towards people like Maggy in his writing.

Arthur asking Amy about her fathers debts leads to the mention of another classic Dickens name ‘Tite Barnacle’! Without even describing this man I can imagine him already.

And also the introduction of the great government department the “Circumlocution Office”. Such a great name again, we can imagine things going in and just going round and round.

[Daniela]

There is something I do not understand, perhaps someone wrote about it and I missed it. The sense of a debtor's prison is for the prisoner to repay his debt working inside or outside the prison. Mr. Dorrit is not doing this, actually his family lives and is fed in the prison, for years and years. What is the use of it? I think Janelle above asked the same question.

[Janelle]

Daniela, the prisoner can’t work to pay off his debt as he is not allowed outside the prison. The only way he can get out is if someone pays off the debt or if the person who he owes forgives the debt. The prison doesn’t feed the prisoners, the family has to provide for the prisoner. That’s why Little Dorrit brings home her food for her father.

It’s nothing like a modern prison.

[Daniela]

Thank you Janelle, I read on Wikipedia that prisoners were allowed to work outside the prison to repay their debts, so this is not always true.

[Fiona]

I found Chapter 9 the most moving so far. It’s fascinating how Dickens uses the weather and the cityscape not just as background but as significant characters themselves. While he and Amy are walking, talking quite comfortably together,

“The wind blew roughly, the wet squalls came rattling past them, skimming the pools on the road and pavement, and raining them down into the river. The clouds raced on furiously in the lead-coloured sky, the smoke and mist raced after them, the dark tide ran fierce and strong in the same direction.”

The contrast between them walking along companionably while the weather rages around them is wonderful. Arthur wants to shelter her from the elements and from her life.

This has been the greatest surprise to me since I started to read Dickens again. He’s not just a wonderful storyteller but also a wonderful writer. I know you know that already!!

[Bridget]

Ah, but it is worth repeating it again Fiona! You picked out a great example of how the descriptions of the atmosphere add so much to the story.

When I was reading about Amy cleaning up her Uncle’s house, an image of Cinderella popped into my head. Amy is always mending something, or cleaning, or doing for others and they just expect it, like they are entitled to it. And no one appreciates her (except Maggy) and she stays rather cheerful.

[Antoinette]

It was interesting to me how quickly Arthur became interested in Little Dorrit. She looks younger than she is and he immediately wants to protect her. I was wondering if he saw some of himself in her. He’s always been the obedient son, regardless of his treatment. He saw how Amy cares for her father and family, even if it means she goes without. Plus he has underlying guilt- could this be the family his family took advantage of. Lots of things to think about when reading Dickens.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Daniela wrote: "Thank you Janelle, I read on Wikipedia that prisoners were allowed to work outside the prison to repay their debts, so this is not always true."

No Janelle is right. At this time the person incarcerated for debt was not allowed out to work, but others in the family could work outside the debtor's prison, wherever they chose to live.

For instance Charles Dickens's father could not work outside the prison, and his mother elected to live there too, although she didn't have to. Charles Dickens worked to buy food for them, although he was only 12 years old :( Hence, in part, this novel ...

In Little Dorrit, Amy can come and go; she does not have to live inside the prison, but she chooses to, to be near her father. Both Tip and Fanny (her siblings) live and work outside. The only one who is not allowed to work is Mr Dorrit himself. Nor can he go outside the prison, although the turnkey lets him stand at the gate sometimes.

[Lori]

Bridget wrote: "Lori wrote: "it’s interesting how his fellow prisoners are called collegians and he is the “president of their college”. I guess he must keep up this playacting so that he can continue the genteel ..."

You said it much better than I could, Bridget. It is a hypocritical situation and Mr. Dorrit is seemingly happy, pleased in his romantic ideas towards his "position" there.

[Lori]

Antoinette wrote: "It was interesting to me how quickly Arthur became interested in Little Dorrit. She looks younger than she is and he immediately wants to protect her. I was wondering if he saw some of himself in h..."

Lots of great insights, Antoinette. We are all wondering what connection the Clennam's must have to the Dorrit's.

[Lori]

This chapter really dug at the heartstrings. Amy is basically telling Arthur not to judge her father because he couldn't help his situation. And I think I agree with Amy that if Arthur helped in trying to release her father that it wouldn't be the best thing for him. He really would have no direction outside and what would he do?

She is really the dutiful daughter (as her uncle Frederick says) morphed into a little mother to her siblings and to others. I do dislike the fact that all that she does is expected of her but no one else seems to bother.
Meeting Maggy who certainly loves and appreciates Amy brought such a sad tone but hopeful at the same time to the chapter. Maggy may have had a difficult upbringing and is not able to do things like other people, but she has supported herself and was so proud of herself that she tried to improve herself. That really says a lot about Mr. Dorrit and Tip who have all the capabilities in the world but are comfortable with this life of illusion they've created for themselves in the prison.

One more thing, I think Arthur referred in his thinking about Amy on several occasions as a little creature. It's a term of endearment that he has created for her and it implies that she is more like a pet that requires assistance in his mind. I'm not sure of my train of thought there, so what do you guys think he means by that?

[Lori]

Fiona wrote: "I found Chapter 9 the most moving so far. It’s fascinating how Dickens uses the weather and the cityscape not just as background but as significant characters themselves. While he and Amy are walki..."

Fiona, I love the way Dickens uses the weather and the landscapes to create the atmosphere. I was also abhorred by the description of Frederick's apartment

The house was very close, and had an unwholesome smell. The little staircase windows looked in at the back windows of other houses as unwholesome as itself, with poles and lines thrust out of them, on which unsightly linen hung; as if the inhabitants were angling for clothes, and had had some wretched bites not worth attending to.

You're spot on that Dickens is not just a great character creator, but a great writer of setting the atmosphere.

[Sue]

I was struck by Dickens the narrator (I don’t think it was Arthur) commenting on how those around Amy merely accept all she does as normal and to be expected, not as anything deserving of thanks or ever to be done by themselves. They have become passive recipients of whatever she can do for them. I believe Fanny was working in some way but she still uses Amy’s help.

Amy’s apologia for her father actually angered me on her behalf. I realize she doesn’t know anything else, but it’s so sad. What made her father so weak? What turned him into this delusional man?

[Bridget]

Janelle wrote: "And also the introduction of the great government department the “Circumlocution Office”. Such a great name again, we can imagine things going in and just going round and round..."

Yes! I loved the Circumlocution Office name. Brilliant. So glad you pointed it out :-)

[Bridget]

Sue wrote: "I was struck by Dickens the narrator (I don’t think it was Arthur) commenting on how those around Amy merely accept all she does as normal and to be expected, not as anything deserving of thanks or..."

Good questions Sue. I go back and forth between feeling sorry for Mr. Dorrit, and being angry with him. He might have lost his grasp on reality. Dementia maybe?? He is confused from the moment they put him in the Marshalsea. He can't remember, or its too complicated to untangle, how he acquired the debt that sent him there. I think that might drive me mad. But certainly Dickens is also painting the portrait of an oblivious, neglectful father. I can't quite tell yet if he's willfully neglectful or insanely delusional.

[Janelle]

I think it’s delusional! I don’t think that any of the Dorrits are bad, it’s just that Amy is so much more capable than the rest. (Makes me wonder what the mother was like, maybe that’s who she takes after). Also she’s the only one who has never known a different life so she just gets on with things.

[Janelle]

Link to Chapter 10 summary



Robert Hardy as Tite Barnacle in the BBC’s production of Little Dorrit from 2008

I also liked this image from the series of a circular staircase in the Circumlocution Office strewn with papers:

[Janelle]

This is such a great chapter! I love the satire of government bureaucracy designed to make sure nothing gets done.

And then the coincidence of Arthur bumping into Mr Meagles with a new character, inventor Daniel Doyce. Trying to get a patent from the Circumlocution Office is of course impossible.

[Fiona]

Dickens has carried Fielding’s baton of satire into the 19th century masterfully. His description of the Civil Service / Government is clever, witty, and frighteningly accurate even today. So much of what he says can be applied right now both to governments and to employees in large organisations, e.g.,

That what the Barnacles had to do, was to stick on to the national ship as long as they could. That to trim the ship, lighten the ship, clean the ship, would be to knock them off; that they could but be knocked off once; and that if the ship went down with them yet sticking to it, that was the ship’s look out, and not theirs.

I worked in an organisational behemoth in which getting anything done was often a long and laborious process beginning with form filling and proceeding to be registered in this Department, sent back to be signed by that Department, sent back to be countersigned by this Department and so on while You’ll find out when the business passes through each of these stages, by asking at both Departments until they tell you.. I’m sure that sounds familiar to many of you and it’s so sad that despite all our technological advances, we can still recognise this description today. Dickens is so relevant!

Dickens’ remarks about blood remind me of the discussion on this topic in David Copperfield. Barnacle was more flush of blood than money and his wife’s family, the Stiltstalkings, were also better endowed in a sanguineous point of view than with real or personal property. Again, nepotism and the Old Boys Club are still in operation, as we know. I don’t really understand why the Barnacles live in such dingy surroundings though.

For me, this chapter was welcome light relief after such a dismal start to this book.

[Janelle]

I really liked the vivid description of the Barnacle house “Arthur Clennam came to a squeezed house, with a ramshackle bowed front, little dingy windows, and a little dark area like a damp waistcoat-pocket, which he found to be number twenty-four, Mews Street, Grosvenor Square. To the sense of smell the house was like a sort of bottle filled with a strong distillation of Mews; and when the footman opened the door, he seemed to take the stopper out.”

Notes in my edition say that the address is a contradiction in terms. A mews was a block of stables usually at the back of the house but it has a pretentious location at Grosvenor Square, an aristocratic neighbourhood.

[Fiona]

I loved the description too, Janelle. Apart from enjoying a prestigious address though, there doesn’t seem to be any attraction to living there. I just don’t understand why they appear to be so down at heel, despite having servants. Am I missing something? Did they have power but no money?

[Lori]

I agree that this was a much needed humorous chapter. I laughed at the way Barnacles junior kept trying to reapply his eyeglass with no luck at all. I suppose the glass made him appear more official although they just made him seem bumbling and idiotic- much like the Circumlocution office.

Fiona, great catch on the description of blood here. I got the impression that they lived in the lower section of the highest neighborhood for the status and since Barnacles was a gentleman he felt entitled to a house on this street. so that may imply that he had power and not money. It reminds me of the place Lucretia Tox lived in Dombey and Son. Didn’t she love on the edge of a wealthy neighborhood but not in the neighborhood?

[Fiona]

Lori wrote: "I agree that this was a much needed humorous chapter. I laughed at the way Barnacles junior kept trying to reapply his eyeglass with no luck at all. I suppose the glass made him appear more officia..."

I haven’t read Dombey and Son yet, Lori. I love the name Lucretia Tox though! I’m sure you’re right about Barnacle - clinging on to status!

[Sue]

Well, Barnacles are hangers-on, after all, living off of others. So living on the edge of the good neighborhood in order to have a good address makes sense. But it’s also possible that the family’s surroundings reflect their essence: a total lack of taste or understanding of culture. Certainly their work is at odds with anything positive.

I love that description of Junior too. His face being too flat to hold the eyeglass. The description of the Circumlocution office is wonderful. I didn’t realize that Dickens did satire this broad.

[Bridget]

I didn't realize he did satire like this either. Its wonderful. Like Fiona said, its reminding me of Henry Fielding's "Tom Jones". I don't have much to add, because you've all said the things I was thinking already about the great characters and the humor (especially of Barnacle Jr!)

I really enjoyed the pictures Janelle posted - the view from above the circular staircase is my favorite.

I thought the introduction of Daniel Doyce at the end was brilliant. If you were having trouble relating to Mr. Dorrit's problems, and thinking maybe Arthur Clennam should just give up because its not worth the hassle, then Mr. Doyce is another victim of the bureaucracy who is more sympathetic. He's more like us, just a common ordinary man. Which really leaves no doubt that the Barnacles must go.

[Lori]

Ok, so, remember back to the character who gave Mr. Dorrit a copper half pence - the end of The Father of the Marshalsea chapter. Dorrit’s initial reaction was abhorrence at so little but the man, a plasterer was from the poor side and gave what he had. Dorrit was actually ashamed after a minute of himself and they had a nice conversation and the poor man said he’d come back to see Dorrit after getting out. This reminds me of the widow woman who gave her last 2 copper coins when Jesus was at the temple. He found her offering worth more than any large amount from a rich man because she gave from her poverty all she had to live on. The story is found in Mark 12: 41-44.
At the end of today’s chapter, Arthur heads to Bleeding heart Yard with Mr. Meagles and I think this is where the plasterer lives. Amy said earlier she had a friend, a plasterer. I’m curious to know her connection to this man.

[Bridget]

Oh, Lori, I love that comparison. I'm sure Dickens had that gospel story in mind - if only subconsciously - because for all his criticism of religion, he espouses true Christian values.

I'm also so glad you brought up the Plasterer. The notes section of my book has copies of Dickens' outlines, and he made particular note of making sure to introduce the Plasterer, so I'm sure he's going to be important somehow. I get the feeling the engineer, Daniel Doyce, is going to be important too.

One more thought. Did anyone else change their view of Mr. Meagles with this chapter? I used to see him as ignorant and unaware. Talking loudly, not seeing the suffering of Tattycoram, but here he is very supportive of Mr. Doyce.

[Janelle]

Bridget, I must be more cynical than you! I think Mr Meagles is supportive because he sees an opportunity to make money.

With regard to the barnacles living on the edge of the rich neighbourhood. I do think they live beyond their means because of their ‘blood’, they see themselves as entitled to the blue blood lifestyle even if they don’t have the money to afford it.