Dickensians! discussion
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Little Dorrit
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Buddy Read of Little Dorrit mid-Sept onwards with Janelle, Bridget, Lori and others
Such wonderful prose from beginning to end of this chapter. And so many different styles. The beginning was an almost painterly description of the city and harbor and the effects of the light, the “stare.” It has a very visual quality. Then there is the section in the cell that feels like a play, as has been so well described. And there is the homespun tale of the little child feeding the prisoner “birds.” And then Monsieur Rigaud’s statement/confession of sorts before Jean Baptiste. And then it ends so quietly. Dickens has demonstrated so much skill in one short chapter.
Lori wrote: "Oh, so sorry, one more comment - I loved how Dickens in his eloquent way in the final paragraphs showed that the sun went down and night fell - but he said it beautifully!The wide stare stared it..."
Don't be sorry Lori, your comments are great and there is so much beautiful writing in this chapter. "The wide stare stared itself out" is so good, I marked that as well.
Daniela wrote: "So, we begin with a prison and two characters. I wonder if they are both important for our story. It is a rather gloomy start, in my opinion. Perhaps it is because I have always thought that this i..."That's lovely you are from Italy, I love it there! Welcome!
Dickens spent much time in Genoa before he wrote Little Dorrit, so I think you are spot on when you say John Baptist name is probably Giovan Battista
Jillian ❀‿❀ wrote: "➳ "blustering assertion goes for proof, half over the world..."I loved this quote too. Its equally true today, don't you think?
Daniela wrote: "So, we begin with a prison and two characters. I wonder if they are both important for our story.This is a good question. For a book titled "Little Dorrit" there is no mention of her in the first chapter. But that's not so unusual for Dickens, is it?
I'm thinking we have not seen the end of Rigaud. The pains Dickens takes to describe his mustache going up and down in a "very sinister and cruel manner" makes me think we will see him again. Dickens often does this so you can recognize a character when he/she reappears four hundred pages later :-)
Oh all your comments are so brilliant!Love how you could see it as a play, Bridget. Dickens does seem to write in a way that is easy to dramatise, there’s so many TV adaptations.
Lori, I assumed that Rigaud, as a rich prisoner, is paying the guard to get the better food.
And yes Rigaud, he’s almost a perfect pantomime villain! With the moustache, the whole description. I can imagine all the kids screaming when he’s on stage.
Is it just me or does anyone else pick up a different tone to the book? It feels very different than Downey and Son. Dickens is so eclectic in his speech. Powerful first chapter.. I loved the way he described the prison.
“A prison taint was on every thing there. The imprisoned air, the imprisoned light, the Imprisoned damps, the
Imprisoned men, were all deteriorated by confinement.”
Since the prison keeper calls his prisoners his birds, does anyone know if this is the origin of the word jailbirds?
It is quite a dark start, I agree Antoinette.Jailbird is actually older. I found this:
‘The origin of the word jailbird — or rather gaol bird — can be traced back at least to medieval England, where convicts were oftentimes locked in iron cages that were then suspended several feet above the ground. Visible to passersby, it was strongly suggested by those in charge that the passersby refer to them as jailbirds (gaol birds) since the suspended iron cages somewhat resembled bird cages.’
Thanks, Janelle.
What I find different in this one is the writing style, Jillian. It almost felt like Victor Hugo was writing it. It had a French feel to it.
Janelle wrote: "It is quite a dark start, I agree Antoinette.Jailbird is actually older. I found this:
‘The origin of the word jailbird — or rather gaol bird — can be traced back at least to medieval England, ..."
That’s really interesting, Janelle. Thanks for sharing.
Still in Marseilles but it could be almost a different novel as Dickens introduces a range of new characters. I felt most for Tattycoram. How awful to be adopted to be another child’s plaything! There’s something a bit smug about Mr Meagles, always saying how ‘practical’ he and his wife are.
Mr Meagles is self satisfied, as you say, Janelle. I wonder which of these characters will prove most important to the storyline? I enjoyed Dickens’ description of the other travellers, particularly a majestic English mama and papa, of the patrician order, with a family of three growing-up daughters, who were keeping a journal for the confusion of their fellow-creatures. He has the genius to make even ‘extras’ to the storyline interesting characters. He ends the chapter poignantly with his reference to the pilgrimage of life.
My book in Italian was an abridged version :-(( Now I am reading it on www.thecircomlocutionoffice.com
I wonder what the prison in chapter 1 will be a symbol for......
I like the chapter a day idea…although I’m already two chapters behind lol. I’ll be reading the Oxford Classics edition.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
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There is information on several of the points already brought up in this discussion after each summary too, but no spoilers!
Jillian, since you're new to "Dickensians!", it's worth checking out! Others who have been part of a buddy read know to check the original threads, as there's heaps there! :)
Prison is definitely shaping up as a major theme. In this second chapter we meet another group of characters who are also in prison, but this time because of quarantine (gosh I can relate to that!). Mr. Meagles even refers to the group of travelers as jailbirds,And of course Tattycoram is in a sort of prison as well, isn’t she.
I agree, here we are introduced to a new type of prison- the prison of quarantining. Certainly, what we have all been experiencing over the past 18 months.Miss Wade interests me. She speaks her mind, she disagrees with Mr Meagles about his opinion of leaving a prison. “If I had been shut up in any place to pine and suffer, I should always hate the place and wish to burn it down, or raze it to the ground.” Very strong in her opinions. Why is she travelling alone? I look forward to learning more of her and her “secrets”.
I have a twin sister and I felt particularly sorry for the story of Pet's twin sister. If only they had taken Tatty as a little sister to replace her, and not as a maid! Not enough practical, perhaps.There is this part of Miss Wade conversation that I found appalling and rather menacing:
'Your pretty daughter,' she said, 'starts to think of such things. Yet,' looking full upon her, 'you may be sure that there are men and women already on their road, who have their business to do with you, and who will do it. Of a certainty they will do it. They may be coming hundreds, thousands, of miles over the sea there; they may be close at hand now; they may be coming, for anything you know or anything you can do to prevent it, from the vilest sweepings of this very town.'
I see these hordes of people coming from all the parts of the world, converging on helpless Pet :)
I would have liked to know about the reactions of the people who were listening, but we go out of the room with Miss Wade.
Well, well, certainly like Dickens to shower us with a boatload of new characters to try to remember and think about. The Meagles are “practical people” but are they really? I’m not sure that what they “have done for” Pet or for Tattycoram was very practical. It sounds like Pet is very delicate and spoiled. As for Tattycoram, Meagles believes bringing her into their family as a companion/maid was best for her along with changing her name. I’m sure it never crossed his mind to ask her.Miss Wade is definitely intriguing and one to watch. Tattycoram showed an explosive side with her tantrum so possibly something that will come back again. Dickens wouldn’t have highlighted this behavior unless it was important.
Prison is certainly a theme.
Jillian ❀‿❀wrote: "Jillian ❀‿❀ wrote: "Don't add me in on this one as I'm notorious for greedily eyeing ALL THE BOOKS & then discovering I have no time, but I am tempted by this one. :-) I need some more Dickens and ..."Thanks for letting us know. A chapter a day certainly isn't for everyone. Reading is for fun, not for feeling trapped!!
If you keep reading Little Dorrit, and ever want to pop back in to chat feel free to do just that! We would love to hear your thoughts.
Daniela wrote: "I have a twin sister and I felt particularly sorry for the story of Pet's twin sister. If only they had taken Tatty as a little sister to replace her, and not as a maid! Not enough practical, perha..."what in interesting perspective of Pet you must have being a twin yourself. I found it so odd that the Meagles didn't really mourn the loss of Pet's sister. They just transferred all their love and devotion to Pet. I suppose that's very "practical" but I find it cold and unemotional.
What do we make of Mr. Clennam? I thought his back story was interesting "I am the only child of parents who weighed, measured and priced everything...nothing graceful or gentle anywhere...this was my childhood". Even though he had parents, his childhood seems similar to Tattycoram's story living in the Foundling Hospital where no one loved her, and then being taken into the Meagles house where still no one loves her.
I think mr. Clennam is living in a prison of sorts. After spending 20 years working in China and now has no purpose or will. Tattycoram’s life is another type of prison as a servant/maid not really a daughter. What was it miss Wade said to her? Something about remembering her lower position? My iPad is charging or I’d look it up.
here you go Lori,"Hush! Be more prudent. You forget your position"
Love your thoughts on Mr. Clennam also being in a prison.
Oh Jillian, that’s a shame! But reading this way doesn’t suit everyone.I didn’t think I’d like it either but found that one chapter a day helps me absorb the story better. I get to think over the plot and the characters and especially with all the extra info and thoughts here, I’ve found it an added bonus.
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Daniela, that quote from Miss Wade is full of foreshadowing and a really strange thing to say to a young woman.I don’t think I have a firm idea of Mr Clennam yet.
Lori the quote is Hush! Be more prudent. You forget your dependent position.
Jean has a pic and some info on the Foundling hospital after the summary too.
Oh Bridget beat me to the quote! Too slow typing :))
Thanks to you both, Bridget and Janelle! That’s the one.
I’m looking forward to the next chapter to see if there is any clarity about the people we’ve already met or more people to wonder about. I enjoyed the references to the Marseillaise. Reminded me of Tale of Two Cities etc.
Bridget wrote: "What do we make of Mr. Clennam? I thought his back story was interesting "I am the only child of parents who weighed, measured and priced everything...nothing graceful or gentle anywhere...this was..."The description of his parents made me think of the Murdstones in David Copperfield, Bridget, which would be a miserable upbringing indeed!
I thought Chapter 3 was brilliant. I loved the description of miserable, rainy London, the filth and smell, it’s all so gloomy. Then Arthur arrives home and it’s gloomy too. His mother, so cold!And Dickens leaves it right to the end to mention Little Dorrit, and we are pointed to a future plot line in Arthur’s old love, now widowed.
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I'm a bit behind in starting but will keep an eye on posts and try and catch up.
Chapter three: what is this Calender's story with ten young men who blacken their faces?
There is a strong contrast between the title of this chapter, home sweet home, and the contents of the chapter. The adjectives used in the first part are: gloomy close stale maddening melancholy dire doleful weary deadly dismal miserable dreary dull dingy; and then, could it be worse? Yes, it starts raining! I was surprised by the servant Jeremiah addressing Arthur with such familiarity, calling him by his first name.
And here is Little Dorrit and also another unknown girl, Arthur's first love.
This chapter was really captivating.
Fiona wrote: "Bridget wrote: "What do we make of Mr. Clennam? I thought his back story was interesting "I am the only child of parents who weighed, measured and priced everything...nothing graceful or gentle any..."Great comparison Fiona. I hadn't thought of the Murdstones, but you are so right there.
Daniela wrote: "Chapter three: what is this Calender's story with ten young men who blacken their faces?"The notes in my Penguin edition say the Calendar story is a reference to a story within The Arabian Nights here is what the notes say:
"ten young men become, in turn, the lovers of forty beautiful princesses. Each loses his good fortune when he fails to obey the princesses' warning not to enter a forbidden room. Exiled and blinded in one eye, the young men bewail their misfortune in the manner Dickens describes"
I really loved this chapter, but I had to use the reference notes many, many times while reading it. Hope this helps.
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Wow, The Clennam home is such a dark and dismal place. I loved the writing in this chapter. I thought for awhile I might be reading a gothic, horror tale.The house seems to be alive, as if its possessed Many years ago, it [the house] had had it in its mind to slide down sideways; it had been propped up, however, and was leaning on some half dozen gigantic crutches
And then there is Flintwinch who is dark, bent and creepy. He seems to be one with the house itself as he walks on a slant. And then there was this spooky description of him:
he had the weird appearance of having hanged himself at one time or other, and of having gone about ever since halter and all"
Everyone is always in the shadows. They all seemed locked in this house, like its just another prison. And that awful, dark closet is little Arthur Clennam's solitary confinement. Poor Affrey has been bullied into a marriage prison. Mrs. Clennam is stuck in a wheelchair prison.
And yet.......there is hope. Arthur Clennam, though he has a terrible childhood had not quite given up all [his] hopeful yearning yet.
Plus there is a widow somewhere he might still love. And there is a young girl, Little Dorrit, who might bring some light to the darkness.
I have to say, I'm really enjoying the start of this novel. If we were in Victorian times, would we have had these three mysterious chapters, and then had to wait a month for anything more?
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The original publishing schedule is in comment 2 of the group read (and at that point in subsequent threads).
Bridget wrote: "Daniela wrote: "Chapter three: what is this Calender's story with ten young men who blacken their faces?"The notes in my Penguin edition say the Calendar story is a reference to a story within Th..."
Thank you for filling us in on this, Bridget. I had the same question as Daniela.
I did wonder as I was reading this chapter, how chapter one would connect to this one. The two men in the prison- what happened to them. I feel sorry for Arthur to go back to the home that has no happy memories for him. We learn that somehow his mother interfered with his marrying his young lady and as well forced a marriage between Jeremiah and Affery. Sounds like a manipulative evil woman indeed.
Bridget wrote: "Wow, The Clennam home is such a dark and dismal place. I loved the writing in this chapter. I thought for awhile I might be reading a gothic, horror tale.The house seems to be alive, as if its po..."
Bridget, you hit on pretty much everything I loved about this chapter! YES to everything you said!
I think the first 2 sentences are brilliant as they set the atmosphere for the entire chapter and also Arthur's mood - gloomy, stale, close (describing London).
Maddening bells - sharp and flat, cracked and clear, fast and slow (definitely gives one the feeling that the sounds of the bells were painful to hear).
Happily for me, the times I spent in London were not the ones Dickens describes here:
Melancholy streets, in a penitential garb of soot, steeped the souls of the people who were condemned to look at them out of the windows, in dire despondency.
Dickens is starting this chapter out with the way the common man would wearily work 6 days and had one day to enjoy for themselves but they spent it going to church. Dickens is setting up his criticism of hypocritical religious practices seen in Arthur's childhood. No love, or happiness just fire and brimstone. But he also describes the unsanitary water and closeness of the "lairs" that no-one really got any fresh air.
Arthur's description of his childhood Sundays demonstrate another type of prison for him.
Definitely can see the Murdstone connection with the Clennams.Antionette, those prisoners from chapter 1 will be back I’m sure. Did anyone catch the mustachioed mystery man from the quarantine travelers in Ch 2? Who is he? Could he be connected to Ragaud?
Dickensians!
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The wide stare stared itself out for one while; the Sun went down in a red, green, golden glory; the stars came out in the heavens, and the fire-flies mimicked them in the lower air...