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Eisenhower in War and Peace
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WE ARE OPEN - WEEK TWO - EISENHOWER IN WAR AND PEACE - February 9th ~ February 15th - CHAPTER TWO - The Great War (28 - 48) No-Spoilers
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However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.
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The second week’s reading assignment is:
Week Two - February 9th, 2015 to February 15, 2015
Chapter Two: The Great War - pages 28 - 48
Chapter Overview and Summary
Chapter 2: The Great War
"I suppose we'll spend the rest of our lives explaining why we did not get into this war>"
--Dwight D. Eisenhower - November, 11, 1918
Dwight D. Eisenhower graduates from West Point and requests a Far East assignment but did not receive one. Instead he was assigned to Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio.
He was asked to coach a variety of Army football teams.
He falls in love with Mary Geneva Doud and the feelings were mutual; they married.
Eisenhower's first assignment was in logistics similar to the first assignment that Ulysses S. Grant had. They both learned the importance of keeping the troops supplied but also how to do so.
Eisenhower departs for Fort Oglethorpe and Mamie gives birth to their first son - Doud Dwight Eisenhower. He was transferred to the tank corps at Fort Leavenworth. This opened up a window of opportunity for Ike.
In 1918 Eisenhower was assigned to Camp Meade. He was supposed to organize and prepare the 301st for combat - but they had no tanks. In March 1918 - he was told that he would be shipping out for France and he would be the 301st commander. He then found out that this was canceled and he was to remain state side. He had been assigned to organize the tank corps at Camp Colt. By summer in 1918, he had ten thousand men under him and 600 officers.
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The author Jean Edward Smith writes:
"At graduation, Eisenhower requested assignments to the Philippines--the only member of his class to ask for duty in the Far East. Instead, he was posted to the 19th Infantry--the famed "Rock of Chickamauga" regiment--stationed at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio. Trouble brewed on the Mexican border, and the War Department was bringing its forces in the region to full strength.
In 1911, Mexico's longtime president, Porfirio Diaz, was overthrown in a revolutionary uprising. A period of instability ensued, culminating in the seizure of power by General Victoriano Huerta in early 1912. The Taft administration maintained a hands-off policy, and was on the verge of recognizing the Huerta regime when it left office. But President Woodrow Wilson had other ideas. A former Princeton politics professor, Wilson was determined to "teach the Latin American republics to elect good men." He withheld diplomatic recognition, and the situation remained in limbo until a minor incident at Tampico in April 1914 provided a pretext for the United States to intervene. Congress granted Wilson authority to take military action, and on April 21, 1914, U.S. Marines seized the port of Veracruz, choked off Huerta's supplies, and forced him to flee the country three months later. Huerta was succeeded by the constitutionally elected General Venustiano Carranza, whom Wilson eventually recognized as Mexico's de facto government. But Carranza encountered stiff resistance from rebel forces led by General Francisco ("Pancho"Villa in the north, and Emiliano Zapata in the south. The War Department was concerned lest further intervention become necessary, and Congress's authorization to use force continued in effect."
Topics for Discussion:
1. What was the situation in Mexico at the time and do you recall any of these folks who are mentioned?
2. How do you think that this situation influenced what happened to Ike at that time?
3. What were your impressions about how Taft wanted to handle things in Mexico versus Woodrow Wilson. Do you think that Wilson was brash and professorial in trying to teach Latin America a thing or two?
4. How could things have gone wrong in Mexico?
5. Were you surprised at the quick courtship of Ike and Mamie? Do you think that Ike was caught up in the Doud household and the fact that they were more well off?
6. What are your thoughts on Ike's assignments and how he prioritized his life?
I agree, Wilson seemed more aggressive regarding Mexico than Taft. Taft was prepared to recognize Huerta's government in return for settlement of business claims that were lost. Then when Carranza revolted in February 1913, Taft pulled back from the idea of recognition.
Regarding Mexico, Wilson saw things not through the a business lens, but more of a moral lens. He would not recognize Huerta at all. He called Huerta a "brute" and in the end, intervened by use of force.
Bentley - very interesting questions about Mexico.I think Smith overstates Wilson's desire to intervene militarily. See Woodrow Wilson: A Biography by John Milton Cooper Jr..
As I understand it, the situation in Mexico was pretty chaotic. Huerta and his military cohorts ousted the freely elected president Madero, who was then murdered by the military. It's no wonder Wilson resisted recognizing him.
Many American business men supported Huerta because they thought he was necessary to restore order.
Wilson made a big mistake in landing the marines in Veracruz. This was another case of a president using a pretext to justify military action. However, the U.S. withdrew quickly.
As for Pancho Villa, he did conduct a raid on Columbus, New Mexico, which precipitated the American retaliation. In this case, it was more than just a pretext.
Poor Eisenhower would really have liked to be part of the Pershing military expedition. As any professional military man, he longed for combat experience.
by John Milton Cooper Jr. (no photo)
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Pancho Villa had iconic status - everybody has heard of Pancho Villo as much as they have heard of the Argentinian Che Guevara. I always wonder how these folks gain such name recognition.
I have to agree with Bryan that Wilson never measured things in dollars and cents but in terms of morality and decency or what he constituted common sense judged from the strictly Wilsonian view of things. He acted when he was President like he was educating the world. He had a paternal side of his presidency I think. He believed deeply to his core. And he was so sure that he was right.
Note:
I digressed above and wondered about the iconic status of revolutionaries and mentioned Che Guevera - did you know the following about Che?
Time magazine named him one of the 100 most influential people of the 20th century, while an Alberto Korda photograph of him, titled Guerrillero Heroico was cited by the Maryland Institute College of Art as "the most famous photograph in the world".
You have all seen it on t-shirts everywhere I am sure. I rest my case. Why aren't we walking around with t-shirts of Mother Teresa or our presidents or famous humanitarians? Or Ike?
How about this one?
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I was struck by how stylish and avant garde she looked - when she became the President's wife - I always felt she was ultra conservative and her famous bangs. She did not have that look as a young debutante.
I wondered if this was the effect of being Ike's wife and his family background.
I also wondered how he made decisions about himself never really thinking of his young family and the distance between them. Some of his choices show raw ambition even then.
Topics for Discussion:
1. What surprised all of you?
2. Do you think that Ike was "status climbing"?
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Why did Ike (the only one in his class) request an assignment to the Philippines - nobody else in his class made such a request - none?
I know very little of Eisenhower's life, so I am thrilled to read this. I had no idea he had been posted here in San Antonio. I'm very familiar with Fort Sam Houston. They mention a government preserve in Leon Springs "just 20 miles north" of San Antonio (now just on the outskirts). I know of some old military buildings in Leon Springs and we've wondered what they were for. Now I know. I wonder what Mamie thought of San Antonio. It was far from the metropolis that she was likely use to in Chicago and Denver. It appears that she didn't mind, as long as she could dote on Ike.
I don't get the impression that Ike was social climbing. It seems to me that he just wants to be where the action is, and certainly not being a coach! It is interesting, though, that he took those crap assignments without much argument, as if he knew not to burn his bridges.
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I was thinking the same thing about Mamie - did Ike stifle her?
He was obviously ambitious and patient. Not two characteristics that go together well.
I have no doubt the Mamie/Ike marriage was a love match, but, by our standards, they had little in common.Mamie looks a lot more attractive in those young pictures, without the dreadful short bangs. She was only 19 when she met Ike and is described as a "total extrovert." The fact that her family was wealthy was probably just a bonus in Ike's eyes. The parent treated Eisenhower "like the son they never had"(p.33), which must have been very encouraging.
But Mamie had very little education. She didn't even graduate from high school, although she did go to a finishing school (pp.32-33). Ike might not have been that serious of a student in school, but he became very widely read. He was obviously extremely intelligent and had amazing organizational skills. Mamie was raised more to be an ornamental wife. I think army life was very difficult for her, although that allowance that her father gave her (more than $1600 a month in today's money -p.34) must have helped make it easier.
Do you think that Ike had any real choice in his military assignments, Bentley? I agree that they certainly made it hard on his family.
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I am not sure Ann because I am reading this book for the first time with you but based upon how the author writes and presents the facts - it appears that he did or thought he had some choices and those choices would have made things particularly difficult for his family and for Mamie but were I think made with his career and Ike himself in mind. Think of the Far East request or some of his other misgivings about where he was actually sent and what he was actually asked to do. These eventually prepared him to become the commander he became but there always seemed to be underneath it all a cavalier attitude of what came first in Ike's eyes and I think it was Ike.
I might add that Mamie seemed to be the perfect wife to foster those ambitions in Ike and allow him to take off and leave because there was a caretaker back home. Nancy Reagan was that kind of wife and to a certain extent - both Jackie Kennedy and Lady Bird were too. It was all about their husbands and not about them. One final thought - that must have been one of the expectations for a wife then and they followed that mold - I think nowadays we want our daughters to be as fulfilled at they can be in their career too but the mores and culture certainly was different then.
Although they did not have in much in common, Ike and Mamie's quick courtship does not surprise me. There are two reasons why. For one thing , they were both extroverts. Second of all, Ike liked Mamie's Physical appearance. Since Ike was from a very poor family and the Doud's were very rich, I would think that he probably experienced a bit of a culture shock.
Great discussion so far. I've got to get caught up on my reading.
Mod
1. What was the situation in Mexico at the time and do you recall any of these folks who are mentioned?The situation in Mexico is pretty important for seeing how far off the rails Theodore Roosevelt’s Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine went after he left office. It became common practice for the U.S. between the Roosevelts (Theodore and Franklin that is) to occupy countries throughout the Caribbean for one reason or another and sometimes for a very long time. Names are like Pancho Villa and Valeriano Huerta are somewhat known to me and, I assuming, to many other Americans, but not in a positive light. If I’m not mistaken, many Mexicans have a rather positive view of Pnacho Villa as the guy who stood up to the Americans and got away with it whereas Americans typically view him as no better than a criminal or proto-terrorist. In the end, its just another strange patch in the varied quilt that makes up the history of U.S.-Mexican history, with both its good (i.e. NAFTA) and bad (i.e Mexican-American War of 1846-48).
2. How do you think that this situation influenced what happened to Ike at that time?
It’s hard to see how much of an affect the situation Mexico had on Ike other than to be one more instance where he didn’t get to see combat. As the author quotes Ike as saying, “I suppose we’ll spend the rest of our live explaining why we didn’t get into this war.” I suspect Ike might include not getting into Mexico with that sentiment as well.
3. What were your impressions about how Taft wanted to handle things in Mexico versus Woodrow Wilson. Do you think that Wilson was brash and professorial in trying to teach Latin America a thing or two?
I think that Taft probably had the better policy than Wilson. I wouldn’t say Wilson’s policy toward Mexico was brash or professorial, but I do think that there was an element of racism to Wilson that few people recognize. Almost a year ago I read the book
by John Milton Cooper Jr. and he notes that both Wilson and the Democratic party he commanded were still products of the Old South and had not begun the process of breaking away from that past as it would begin to do so under FDR. As I recall, Mr. Cooper noted that Wilson never spoke out against lynching, which was practically an epidemic in Early 20th century America, and that his administration hired the fewest number of African-Americans than any other administration in this period. It’s a shame that the man who made self-determination for the peoples of Austria-Hungary and the Balkans two of his famous Fourteen Points had such a narrow view on race in America. 4. How could things have gone wrong in Mexico?
Wilson’s Mexico policy could have been a disaster for the U.S. if we had actually gone to war with Mexico. It would’ve tied down troops needed for the Western Front in a quagmire in Mexico and would’ve turned Mexico into an ally of the Germans, one that would’ve been much more favorable to an alliance based on the Zimmerman telegram. Not to mention that a second war with Mexico would’ve gained future U.S.-Latin American relations far more than they already had been. It could’ve also led to greater instability in Mexico instead of the stability that soon developed in the aftermath the Mexican Revolution. Though Mexico suffered under a one-party system the rest of the 20th century after the Revolution, a war with the U.S. would’ve made things worse, not better. Ultimately, the U.S. and the Allies were lucky that Wilson got out of Mexico when he did.
5. Were you surprised at the quick courtship of Ike and Mamie? Do you think that Ike was caught up in the Doud household and the fact that they were more well off?
Without knowing too much about their future marriage, having not read the rest of this biography yet (and this being a non-spoilers thread), I can’t say I am surprised by Ike and Mamie’s quick courtship. For some people, when you meet the right person, it just goes by really quick. And if you find compatible in-laws like the Douds, why not marry sooner rather than later?
6. What are your thoughts on Ike's assignments and how he prioritized his life?
It’s hard to say Ike prioritized anything about his assignments during this period. It was a bit of luck and some impressed senior officers that got him where ended up by the end of the chapter. But the author is right that, though Ike never saw combat and would be criticized for it later, the experience he earned as a supply officer and then as the head of the tank corps training in Gettysburg would be invaluable to his future in leading the Allied forces in North Africa, Sicily, and Western Europe. Not every great commander has to be a fighting commander.
Thanks Christopher for your good responses.I had to chuckle about Ike training tank soldiers without tanks! But there were very scarce in those days. He was quite resourceful, an excellent trait.
I also thought Smith bringing in U.S. Grant was interesting. They both started out in supply.
Hi allI am late but I notice that Ike here is constantly applying his organizational skills (acquired where?) and his industry. It seems that even before marrying a Presbyterian he already had that Calvinist work ethic.
I wonder why he choose the Philippines. Was MacArthur already there? Did he want to serve with him? I am in the midst of vacation & have only my I phone so somewhat limited
Maybe one of the most interesting comments/ observations was (sorry reading on Kindle - no page numbers) that the Civil War ended only 55 years eArlier.
Mamie may not have had extensive education but had her PHD (poppa has dough) which can be a great social lubricant.
If my son were to read this and recall the years it took him to make Lt. Col. He might be jealous
Hi allI am late but I notice that Ike here is constantly applying his organizational skills (acquired where?) and his industry. It seems that even before marrying a Presbyterian he already had that Calvinist work ethic.
I wonder why he choose the Philippines. Was MacArthur already there? Did he want to serve with him? I am in the midst of vacation & have only my I phone so somewhat limited
Maybe one of the most interesting comments/ observations was (sorry reading on Kindle - no page numbers) that the Civil War ended only 55 years eArlier.
Mamie may not have had extensive education but had her PHD (poppa has dough) which can be a great social lubricant.
If my son were to read this and recall the years it took him to make Lt. Col. He might be jealous
There are two pictures here of the "historic marker" for the 1st Officer's Camp in Leon Springs, TX where Eisenhower was deployed for a short time while being stationed at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio. Sadly, it does not mention Eisenhower being here. A bank now stands in it's place. The last picture is of the Max Aue Cabin that was a stagecoach inn across the road from where the officer's camp was. This is a building that I thought was an old army barracks, but was wrong. If you read the marker - this 1st Officer's Training Camp was established on May 8, 1917 which is about the time Eisenhower went to Leon Springs. So I am guessing he was part of that first group. It also mentions Camp Funston and our book talks about Fighting Fred Funston being assigned here by President Wilson. Very cool to connect this bit of information while reading the book.
(Source: My own pictures)
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I am late but I notice that Ike here is constantly applying his organizational skills (acquired where?) and his industry. It seems that even before marrying a Presbyterian he already had th..."
Eisenhower didn't like MacArthur at all; it's pretty easy to see why given MacArthur's theatrical personality and vanity; I think Ike once called him "irrational."
It makes me wonder what their relationship would have been like if they were assigned to the same theater during the war, or if their roles were reversed. They do provide an interesting contrast.
Vince, MacArthur was not in the Philippines when Ike graduated from West Point. Possibly he wanted to go for the adventure of it all.
Great pictures, Teri, thanks so much for sharing.
Thanks for the pictures, Teri! Always nice to see things as they really are.I don't have much to add about this chapter. I don't know much about Mexico at the time, so have little to add there, and I have no idea why Ike wanted to go to the Philippines. I thought Ike and Mamie were a good match, from the way it was described here, and I think Ike fit right into her family. I got the impression he enjoyed the respect and inclusion he was extended from her family. I think he saw more of a family life with her family than his own.
I was very impressed with Ike's work ethic and the outstanding jobs he did everywhere he went. He was an achiever and I would have expected no less from him. He had that 'take charge' attitude every where he went. It seems like a small part of that comes from being poor because you realize at a young age that life is what you make of it. I did not find it odd at all that he prioritized his job ahead of his family. That's the way it was at that time period. There was only one family income. Men worked to get ahead and women did everything they could to support them.
Thanks Maureen, and add the military family culture where the spouse does all the "heavy lifting." It is not easy.
Mod
Very true about his work ethic - don't forget though that Mamie's family was contributing substantially on a monthly basis to that income. I think though that Mamie found herself in quite a different environment than she was used to especially at the beginning.
I traveled the grounds of Picketts charge and the high ground where the Union forces held position. It's hard to imaging that under the soil past the copse of trees heading to the Union rear is the remains of Camp Colt and the office swimming pool. It's really hard to imagine Ike leading men trained for tanks without tanks!http://www.gettysburgdaily.com/eisenh...
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We are adding to the Liberation Trilogy glossary since the timeline overlaps in most cases or the important personages are the same - in this case Ike:
Here is the link:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I highly suggest that anyone reading this book take the time to walk the grounds of Gettysburg and visit the Eisenhower farm. Lets make it a History book club event!
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I know plenty of historians to give tours! A weekend with Ike!
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I liked visiting Ike's home. I will have to do again with my kids.
Bentley wrote: "Fabulous and you could cook (lol)"Most certainly!
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With the weather - true, however the best times to see the battlefield are in the winter when you can see the terrain better. Often times the overgrowth takes away from the experience, especially at Culps hill.
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Bentley wrote: "Maureen - I think Ike idolized his mother and I think the boys were a strong family unit - I really do but for some reason I think Ike aspired to the lifestyle of the Douds and to me I think he was "social climbing" and if it were a woman in his place - he might have been described as a bit of a 'gold digger". ..."He very well could have been social climbing, Bentley. Hard to tell from just reading about him from a singular point of view, and I don't really know any of his personality. I got the impression that he enjoyed the Doud's lifestyle and powerful contacts, but I didn't get the impression that was why he married Mamie. He certainly wouldn't get that kind of money in the service, but he could get the power and many powerful contacts.
Mod
I think she was his "door opener".
As for Eisenhower's ability to prioritize, I think his poor upbringing taught him an invaluable lesson of making the best of a situation, no matter what card is dealt. I was very impressed with his managing of the Tanks corp at Gettysburg.
Mod
Chef wrote: "With the weather - true, however the best times to see the battlefield are in the winter when you can see the terrain better. Often times the overgrowth takes away from the experience, especiall..."Hi Chef
If you pick a time please let me know and I will try to come.
Thanks very much
Vince
PS - if this is addressed later on please forgive me I am just back and trying to catch up.
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The History Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Woodrow Wilson: A Biography (other topics)Woodrow Wilson: A Biography (other topics)
Eisenhower in War and Peace (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
John Milton Cooper Jr. (other topics)John Milton Cooper Jr. (other topics)
Jean Edward Smith (other topics)
For the week of February 9th through February 15th, we are reading CHAPTER 2: The Great War - pages 28 - 48 of the book - Eisenhower in War and Peace by Jean Edward Smith.
The second week's reading assignment is:
Week Two - February 9th, 2015 - February 15, 2015
Chapter 2: The Great War - pages 28 - 48
We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.
This book was kicked off on February 2nd
We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.
This weekly thread will be opened up on February 9th.
There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.
Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Jerome, Kathy and Teri.
Welcome,
~Bentley
TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL
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Introduction Thread:
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Table of Contents and Syllabus
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Glossary
Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed. Since we are discussing the same time period and the same people will be discussed in this book as in the Liberation Trilogy - please utilize those three glossary parts. They will be very helpful to you and will provide a wealth of knowledge.
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Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD
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