"She Who Became the Sun" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

This book has been getting so much buzz it's more like cicadas than bees in here! Eh?

Okay, onto the less cheesy stuff.

Tell us all your thoughts!

Some questions to get us started:

1. What did you think of the different POVs?
2. What did you think of the use of gender portrayals/roles in this book?
3. What did you think of the historical elements?
4. What worked or didn't for you?

Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions

[Silvana]

Not sure if this is allowed (let me know so I could delete it) but the WBTM group had a Q&A with the author last month. Her/their answers are really insightful, hence I'd like to share it here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... (her responses are in message #16 and #28)

[Travis]

I really wanted to like this one. But the stakes seemed so much on the scale of the individual that I had a hard time caring all that much one way or the other. Zhu's motivation seemed to be to become great, and I was never quite sure what greatness meant in the novel or why it would make a difference for more than her. I also found Ouyang's character to be muddled, in part because I could never make sense of his relationship with Esen, so I wasn't sure what aside from personal revenge was driving him. I do think if I knew more about the founding of the Ming Dynasty (I know very little beyond an encyclopedia entry or two), that would have really helped. And I can definitely understand why others really love this one.

[Kirsi]

I just finished it and don't know WHAT to think. It's all jumbled right now, I'll probably need a few days to wrestle my thoughts into some kind of order.

However, I found it really interesting how my own perception of Zhu gradually changed as the story progressed. At first, I felt so sorry for this little, starving, unappreciated girl and was instantly rooting for her and cheering her on. But then... little by little, her ambition and desire to hold on to the fate of greatness with teeth and claws turn her into someone I was first alarmed by, then horrified by. At the end of the book, I almost hated her - yet still couldn't help but admire her, too. I'd call that pretty impressive character development, and I'm interested in finding out if she changes even more as the story continues.

Ouyang was another character I had similar conflicted feelings about. I hated him at first, but by the time the book ended he was probably my favourite character. Go figure.

[Silvana]

Kirsi wrote: "I just finished it and don't know WHAT to think. It's all jumbled right now, I'll probably need a few days to wrestle my thoughts into some kind of order.

However, I found it really interesting ho..."

Kirsi, you spoke my mind. We've the same opinion about Ouyang and Zhu.

What do you think about Ma and her decision to follow Zhu at the end?

This reminds me actually I haven't written a review for the book. My mind - like yours - was a bit jumbled after reading it.

[Gabi]

Silvana wrote: "Not sure if this is allowed (let me know so I could delete it) but the WBTM group had a Q&A with the author last month. Her/their answers are really insightful, hence I'd like to share it here: htt..."

Unfortunately the access is for members of the group only.

[Gabi]

I've just finished. I started it yesterday evening as audiobook and I couldn't turn it off (minus the hours I had to sleep in between). This is one of those rather rare books that manage to completely draw me in and give me the a feeling of constantly wanting to bite my nails. It's a kind of pressure in the area of my lungs where I physically feel it while I'm reading. Zhu as well as Ouyang were outstanding characters and since this kind of story is bound for drama I constantly counted on one of them dying (I didn't realise it was the first book in a series, otherwise I would have been sure that Zhu would make it till the end - but it was better this way with more suspension).

Like Kirsi said, Ouyang was my favourite character however right from the beginning. These tragic grey shaded villainy characters always get me.

I loved it how multi layered Zhu as well as Ouyang were and how their POVs showed the conflict from both sides without drawing a clear line between good and evil.

The cruelties Zhu committed to get to greatness were fascinating. It prevented this character from becoming one more boring righteous hero. Super interesting this way. I felt very much reminded of the Poppy War.

I can't say a thing about the historical elements, cause I have zero knowledge about this era of the Mongolian/Chinese history. Sounds good to me, but what do I know?

[Silvana]

Gabi wrote: "Silvana wrote: "Not sure if this is allowed (let me know so I could delete it) but the WBTM group had a Q&A with the author last month. Her/their answers are really insightful, hence I'd like to sh..."

whoops! Too bad coz the answers are really great :(

anyway I think I can reveal that if anyone wants to continue with the series, Shelley said the second bool would be established in early 2023.

[Gabi]

Silvana wrote: "whoops! Too bad coz the answers are really great :(..."

I would have loved to read them! I thought for a bit if I should join the group just to do so, but I'm already negligent of other groups I'm a member of.

Ah, yes, regarding a second book. As I mentioned, I didn't realise it was part of a series until I finished and looked up the reviews. The ending of this one works perfectly for a standalone. I didn't even feel the need to know how it goes on - but I will definitely read the next one when it will be released.

[Esther]

Kirsi wrote: "I just finished it and don't know WHAT to think. It's all jumbled right now, I'll probably need a few days to wrestle my thoughts into some kind of order.

However, I found it really interesting ho..."

I loved the epic sweep of the writing.
A friend detailed in her review who was and who was not a real historical figure which I found interesting.
Beware of spoilers for those who do not know (or cannot guess) how the conflict ends.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I also loved the subtle nuance of the character portrayals.
Zhu's determination to achieve the fate she desires was admirable and felt her developing ruthlessness, though hardly endearing, was realistic.
While General Ouyang was so conflicted - my favourite character.

I am looking forward to the next book.

[Midiain]

At the halfway point, I'm thoroughly impressed by this book. It's more of a purely alt-history story, with very little in the way of fantasy elements, than I expected. I'd heard from others that it was grimdark and I can definitely see it heading in that direction. The prose is beautiful and fluid although I'd personally have liked a little more descriptive worldbuilding. I have trouble "seeing" any of it except though what little I know about ancient Chinese and Mongolian history.

None of the characters are anything like "heroic". None are even particularly good people but they're all very compelling and sympathetic as the face impossible situation after impossible situation and manage to survive. My only complaint is that many of the solutions and victories are too easy or too convenient. If there were gods or spirits or ancestors or something that were on their side and making convenient ways out of trouble I'd have no issue here but that isn't the case.

I also like that it's not just gender-flipped but Zhu's whole concept of gender and how she sees herself fitting into a strictly gendered world is interesting. I'd like to see more of Ouyang's ideas on the subject but he dodges it (for good reason) at every turn.

I hope we get to see more of Baoxiang. He's the least likeable of the major characters so far but I like smart, ruthless, morally gray characters.

[David]

The novel reminded me of Hegel’s hypothesis that while the social substantiation of freedom began in China, it was limited to the single personage of the Emperor. Hierarchical societies tend to see all Primary Goods (used in the pursuit of personal freedom) as a zero sum, and so Zhu’s pursuit of Chongba’s failed “destiny” forces her to eliminate anyone (view spoiler)[the Radiant Prince (hide spoiler)] who might possibly crowd her at the pinnacle of success. It’s the tyranny of the self. Hegel’s World Spirit was moving us in the direction of greater freedom, more broadly distributed. “We” (at least in the social sense) are not individuals but a collective (call it Atman, if you’d like) and we are not “free” unless all of us are free.

I liked the book, although it’s something of a stretch to lump it with other, more typical “Fantasy” narratives. I did feel that the language sometime escaped the confines of a 14th Century, Asian POV. As an example of this, on page 303, Ouyang thinks that Shao “would probably survive the apocalypse like a cockroach.” This feels both Western, and 20th Century in origin.

[Midiain]

Well, that was stunning and heart-rending and lived up to all my expectations.

[Esther]

Caillen wrote: "None of the characters are anything like "heroic". None are even particularly good people but they're all very compelling and sympathetic as the face impossible situation after impossible situation and manage to survive.."

Exactly.

[Esther]

Caillen wrote: "My only complaint is that many of the solutions and victories are too easy or too convenient. ..."

Yes, I now want to check what the historical record of those events says.

[Sophie]

Hey,

I’m new to this group, and this was my first book with you, so just to say thanks to you all for introducing me to a book I otherwise wouldn’t have read. I’ve just posted a review - it got 5stars from me. I absolutely loved it. Here’s an excerpt from the review as I wasn’t sure of the etiquette so didn’t want to post the whole thing here too:

“In the vein of all exceptional storytelling, it’s a lot more complicated than this simple ‘Woman, Know Thyself’ narrative, because we’re made explicitly aware of the sometimes quite despicable lengths Zhu reaches in order to fulfil what she perceives as her destiny. It made me think on the lengths anybody has to go the achieve ‘greatness’ in the eyes of humanity. Again, this complexity and subtlety of weaving together the threads of character is what makes our protagonist so utterly fascinating and so very real.”

Thanks again and I’m looking forward to future reads!

S x

[Kaa]

I just finished this, and I am still fumbling for words and thoughts, but this book really made an impression. I found the characters especially impressive, in the way the author was able to make me hate them and root for them to win at the same time.

[Juliette]

I finished this book yesterday and I loved it! I was expecting an action-packed, fantasy-filled war story so this was wildly different but I really enjoyed it nonetheless.

It took me a while to understand that this would be a character-driven story and I'll admit the middle part did lose me for a bit, there were sometimes too many descriptions for too little purpose, but overall I think the author did an amazing job at world-building and these character developments!!

I can't wait to see Zhu fall from grace sometime in the future, and would actually love a plot where Zhu and Ouyang have to work together for a while as they've both hit all time lows, only to get back up and go back to hating/fighting each other. Ouyang was one of my favourite characters from the get go and I want to see him prosper yet suffer lol. I also love Zhu and how power hungry she is, unwilling to let anyone stand in her way. I can see why people would hate her but I love her and I love the author for creating such complex characters and not being afraid to make them suffer.

How am I going to wait until 2023 for book 2? Someone help me hahaha

[Oleksandr]

My review is here https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

And I agree with thought above that it made a great complex characters

[Oleksandr]

1. What did you think of the different POVs?

I really liked it. Usually, in the story we see a protagonist and their light and righteous side fighting dark and evil. Not here. Even in minor details, which maybe ought to be spelled more clearly: before Mongols bodily mutilation including castration was a ‘norm’ in punishments. The very presence of a eunuch in our story shows shift of Mongols to practices of their subjugated people.

2. What did you think of the use of gender portrayals/roles in this book?

I think is has been done quite well, even if I’m not sure that Ouyang would be as feminine-looking as depicted in several places, esp. if he wears man clothes and behaves as men are supposed to in that society. I like the fact that the author don’t go a simpler way just depicting protagonists ad gay/lesbian, for they weren’t worn that way (as most LGBTQ+ Persons) but put by their societies in such places.

3. What did you think of the historical elements?

I think they are made quite well. I admit, it was sometimes hard to follow all unusual names, but that’s my problem, not story’s.

4. What worked or didn't for you?

Fantasy part hasn’t worked for it is absent

[Jane]

I’m trying not to look at what anyone else has said before I write this.
I really did think the book was worth reading, and more, as I came to the end. Reading it was such a long, slow slog that I wondered about all the buzz. I found the writing very satisfying, the characters complex and fascinating— the setting as well. The situations they were in were also complex and fascinating. But somehow I felt a big lack of tension. About 80% in, that changed for me. An understatement. The novel really caught fire. All the tortured gender politics, especially in the relationship between Zhu and Ouyang, became brilliant and compelling. The savagery of the characters and their Fates— wow. So by the end of the book, I was really glad I had read it. I do think it might have worked better for me as an historical novel. The ghosts and the radiance were very interesting fantasy elements, but I think that could have been handled through emphasizing the characters’ beliefs in those elements—which is more or less the way it was handled. Then again, I know very little about the history of those times, so I don’t know whether the parts that seemed historical to me actually were. Anyway, it was a great read in the end, for me. As a person who knows a lot more about the Western tradition than the Eastern, I’d compare it to reading a story based on Greek tragedy.

[Krystal]

Just finished today and must say it fell a bit short for me. I did really enjoy all the plotting and back-stabbing but the war talk was pretty boring and Zhu's ambition was kind of open-ended so it didn't really give a particular outcome I was rooting for.

I did really like how complicated the characters were, and the ruthlessness of Zhu and Ouyang, but appreciated having the more loveable characters like Xu Da and Ma to remind me there was still some good amongst these power-hungry people.

But all the conquering and the politics in between was a real drag.

I haven't written my proper review yet but it was a 3-star for me.

Also, the ghosts were such a weird element. I feel like this book wanted to be fantasy but classifying it as such feels like a stretch to me. I think the ghosts could easily have been metaphoric rather than literal.

[Chris]

It took me forever to finish this one, but that was largely due to only being able to find an audiobook copy and just not being able to find time to listen to it. I think the format just isn't for me. (I seem to be backward in that I find I can more easily fit in a read chapter than listen to one.)

Kirsi has already said exactly what I would have about Zhu's character growth. It's rarely that a character says that they just aren't the same person they were before and it's really true (and in multiple different ways). The book really feels like a lifetime has passed, and Zhu has gone through so many stages and changes over time.

I thought the POV switching was a little rough early on, but once you got used to the characters it was quite telling. I admit to generally anticipating the next Zhu chapter though. It's another thing I thought I'd have an easier time following on page rather than audio, but that again seems to just be how my brain works.

[Hank, Hankenstein's Modster]

I lean more towards Krystal's opinion although I did like the book. The politics and war parts made the middle very boring.

I agree with all the complex character and growth comments, that really was a bright part of the story.

[Paul]

Finally finished this book. This had an incredible start, and a good finish, but I lost the way in the middle part. It could be the audiobook format meant that I lost track of the different characters introduced in the middle of the story. The main character though, was very strong and very much looking forward to 2nd book in the series

[Anushree]

Here is what I like-
10 The deep discussion and inner monologue about gender role, sexuality and feminism. I believe it really caught the essence of these issues, it was messy, complicated and contrary sometimes. I love how it differentiated between traditional gender roles and feminity & masculinity. I love how Zhu embraces these aspects and the conflicting ones and The general is opposite yet the same, It really shows that our inner struggles can be the same yet so different, how we make decisions change the life we live.

What I hated-
1) I hate how Parker- Chan failed to establish Zhu as the leader. We know she is a survivor, but what makes her great enough to lead and have her chosen fate? Her best friend believes in her way too much, but why? We are told she will do anything to get what she wants, but we didn't really get to see her develop this personality aspect did we? for example- her initial years in school is just skipped through and we fail to see the development of Zhu. This book was compared to Mulan but the best part about Mulan was her transformation from a courageous woman to a disciplined, skilled, smart and courageous woman. She was not born with talent, she worked on it. We don't see it. Zhu is just talented enough and we should believe it.

2) How weirdly paced this book was. Sometimes it just skips through time, sometimes is slow af. It was irritating.

3) The book tries to be clever way too hard. Zhu is a clever woman, that's how she survives but it should be a realistic trait. Her cunningness gets lost in genuine connections and feelings. At some point, she is crafting a master plan but the next second she suddenly cares. It's frustrating. Also, it treats the audience as if they are naive and Zhu is way too clever for us. Even the common gimmicks is played way too much, she has luck on her side most of the time.

4) The book left us at an awkward end. Do I really want to know what happens next? It somehow feels like an end to their story. I don't like cliffhangers but I don't think we are left with an interesting enough plot tension to get hooked.

[Bonnie]

I stayed up all night reading this. Best thing I've read since The Steerswoman books.

1. Different POVs?
I didn't notice them so they must have worked for me.
Zhu, Ouyang, and Ma; were there others?

2. Gender portrayals/roles?
Made it so interesting - added layers of fascination onto the story.
*Zhu with her brother, wanting and not wanting to be her brother; then splicing away, then transformation to something new.
*Zhu with Xu Da, knowing or not knowing she was really a girl?
*Ma with Zhu, perceiving her as a man, then as someone who could see her as a whole person, then desire as a lover
*Ouyang with Lord Esen, loving him and being in love with him, yet having his inner life not seen by Esen and being psychologically tortured by him.

I could have used even more! How about more scenes with "Q" engineer Jiao Yu after he realized Zhu was female, his reactions. Or Ma and Xu Da, their relationships with other women like a sister.

3. What did you think of the historical elements?
According to this piece by the author, there was a real Emperor Zhu who is an inspiration for the story.

Shelley Parker-Chan on the Real-Life Inspiration Behind She Who Became the Sun:
https://www.waterstones.com/blog/shel...

Is this what Circe and The Song of Achilles did too? Take myths/ legends/ history and make a new story from them? Haven't read those yet.

4. What worked or didn't for you?
Mostly it worked. I might have added a couple more... gendered relationships as mentioned above. Also in Section Two especially when the adult Monk Zhu was new to us, I didn't quite buy her razzy personality with smirking and retorts. Seemed like that person dropped in from another book.

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

25% into this and... it seems incredibly fast for such a long story. I think the author chose to leave aspects of the world to be filled in by familiarity and experience of previous portrayals of the time & region in media, which is perfectly fine but its not a choice that leaves me with much of an idea of our protagonists life. We're skipping through the training phase, which is one of my favourite parts of such fantasy tales (as the stories tend to fall apart when things get serious).