Ersatz TLS discussion
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Weekly TLS
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What are we reading? 3rd August 2021
AB76 wrote: "MK wrote: "Georg wrote: "Sandya wrote: As for women writers-the same seemed true-I am not interested in Edna O'Brien for example. I am not Irish and I don't care.Hmmm...
Edna O'Brien. Who dared ..."
Snark ahead - be warned. How would anyone relate to this situation - spouse found having long-term affair, willing to break it off, but unable to do so, other spouse has to go to third person's home (with spouse) to let that person know - there will be no divorce.
Etched in memory. Of course eventually there was a divorce. However, I have no intention of reading about situations where women either become a piece of carpet or . . . you fill in the blank.
giveusaclue wrote: "Sandya wrote: "giveuThe Greatest Knight: The Remarkable Life of William Marshal, The Power Behind Five English Thronessaclue wrote: "Slawkenbergius wrote: "Sandya wrote: "Georg wrote: "Bill wrote: "Georg wrote: "Dear Father. The thirty thousand pounds have been paid to me without question or co..."I see my library has - The Greatest Knight: The Remarkable Life of William Marshal, The Power Behind Five English Thrones (2015) - with even an e-audio copy!
AB76 wrote: "unlike Vargas Llosa, i found reading Marquez painful, a hopeless wade through treacle and the acclaim he gets always made me wonder...."Have you read Love in the Time of Cholera? I can take or leave some of Marquez's magic realist stuff, but I think that novel is an absolute masterpiece. (Also a fellow Vargas Lllosa fan).
MK wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Sandya wrote: "giveuThe Greatest Knight: The Remarkable Life of William Marshal, The Power Behind Five English Thronessaclue wrote: "Slawkenbergius wrote: "Sandy..."Very interesting.
Hushpuppy wrote: "I'm still tempted to try the book though, I know it's a firm favourite for many people here, and it might just be superior to its adaptation..."As you say, Hushpuppy, it's a favourite of people on here and a classic, so it clearly has its merits, but I'm afraid that they are lost on me. Many of the doubts that were voiced earlier in the thread in relation to the film are equally applicable to the book, in my view.
I understand that it's a satire of Gone To Earth and similar novels, so I really don't think it's a case of me 'not getting it'. For me, though, the satire didn't work on its own terms and it felt like the whole novel had a sneering, superior streak that I didn't expect or care for.
Fuzzywuzz wrote: "Maybe I'm a bit naïve when it comes to bookclub etiquette (having never been part of one - eTLS is the closest bookclub), but surely not all members would like the chosen book and I would have thought that discussion as to why would make for a far more interesting post-book conversation ..."
Agreed.
Agreed.
Tam wrote: "I think I, personally, if I was in your position would read a few reviews of the book, and make comments from the reviews. ..."
Oh no. I think if you're in a book group then you have to read the book. It's not as if being in a book group is mandated by law. If you elect to join one then you know what you're in for. Which is reading a variety of books, some of which you may not like.
Oh no. I think if you're in a book group then you have to read the book. It's not as if being in a book group is mandated by law. If you elect to join one then you know what you're in for. Which is reading a variety of books, some of which you may not like.
Final verdict on The Secret Place. There is a good book in here, but it's interesting that both author and publisher think it's the one they published. It needs a major rewrite, but French has provided all the material required.
Hushpuppy wrote: "Russell wrote: " I’m not totally sure she’s looking at the ground, because she still seems to take in the viewer."
I've captured what I can see on my big screen...."
It’s interesting what two people see. I don’t think she’s looking directly down. I think her look is slightly deflected but she is still seeing the viewer.
On another point entirely, I notice that her elbow is squarely resting on her knee, whereas in the Manet the elbow seems to be self-supporting.
I've captured what I can see on my big screen...."
It’s interesting what two people see. I don’t think she’s looking directly down. I think her look is slightly deflected but she is still seeing the viewer.
On another point entirely, I notice that her elbow is squarely resting on her knee, whereas in the Manet the elbow seems to be self-supporting.
Hushpuppy wrote: "I have never read any Ruth Rendell. Any advice of where to start if I come across one?."
I don't know Rendell's work very well at all, but she wrote her more straightforward crime stuff under her own name, and her more pyschological crime under the Vine pseudonym. I have read only one Vine book and I can't remember which, but it occurred to me while reading The Secret Place that Vine's writing is much tighter, hence my comment. One place where you may have unknowingly come across Vine's work is if you saw the film La Cérémonie. It's an adaptation of the novel A Judgement in Stone. The only Rendell book I've read is Simisola which I liked. That was a long time ago, mind you. I don't know what I'd think of it now.
I don't know Rendell's work very well at all, but she wrote her more straightforward crime stuff under her own name, and her more pyschological crime under the Vine pseudonym. I have read only one Vine book and I can't remember which, but it occurred to me while reading The Secret Place that Vine's writing is much tighter, hence my comment. One place where you may have unknowingly come across Vine's work is if you saw the film La Cérémonie. It's an adaptation of the novel A Judgement in Stone. The only Rendell book I've read is Simisola which I liked. That was a long time ago, mind you. I don't know what I'd think of it now.
Machenbach wrote: "Enough about Manet. Here's a picture of a woman reading which the internet gifted to me today:
"
Ugh, gifted ? Even you, MB?
"
Ugh, gifted ? Even you, MB?
It was very early this morning , about half past six when I posted that reference to the Manet painting , one I remembered simply to illustrate nude women with clothed men in a painting, expecting it to disappear into the ether as usual. I have learned much, thank you Tam and everyone and I shall look at such paintings in a different way now.I have walked around many galleries and the nude as the common central point of interest has been noticeable in the general run of works. I did notice a statistic ( don’t I love ‘em) which said of the paintings in the 19C and 20C galleries in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, there were less than 5% painted by women but 85% of the nudes were female.
Baring in mind that I have said before that percentages are weasels unless one know what they are a percentage of, I had to rummage around to find the number of exhibits to give credence to the 5% and 85% but after some searching I cannot give you a figure for the number of artists or nudes. I can only assume that there would be at least a couple of hundred. That’s what I mean about percentages being weasels. They, percentages, are everywhere without giving enough information to make a proper judgment, much loved by politicians and newspapers to deceive.
Dodgy statistics aside my half asleep post has proved most interesting.
Just ordered this, its a translation from a 1998 German language history of the DDR:The Ideal World of Dictatorship: Daily Life and Party Rule in the GDR, 1971-89
Interesting to see these english translations of german historical studies....
Machenbach wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Vargas Llosa is brilliant."So this Llosa chap, is he very Welsh?"
=
Haha, and no it wasn't me who said that Vargas Lllosa is brilliant - I wouldn't know. vagaries of the goodreads site?
Machenbach wrote: "Enough about Manet. Here's a picture of a woman reading which the internet gifted to me today:"
Just ask Amazon about James Clayford's oeuvre.
MK wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Sandya wrote: "The Greatest Knight: The Remarkable Life of William Marshal, The Power Behind Five English Thrones|23456467].Give it a try MK, I find him a fascinating character. Although if I remember rightly there are one or two errors in the book. There is this one too:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/William-Mars...
And if you can stand historical novels:
https://www.fantasticfiction.com/c/el...
CCCubbon wrote: "It was very early this morning , about half past six when I posted that reference to the Manet painting , one I remembered simply to illustrate nude women with clothed men in a painting, expecting ..."Hi CC. Nudes are not just all one thing. Here is one of my favourite nudes. It is by Edvard Munch, who, here, has painted his sister, elder than him by a year or so, who was dying of tuberculoses. She died at fifteen. There is a real tenderness and sadness in the expression. They shared a bedroom, throughout their childhood it seems, and he was close to her. There is a lot of melancholy within the family. His mother died of tuberculoses as well. It is very moving to me and somehow about the human state, of returning to the ground in the same state as you were born... unclothed....https://i.postimg.cc/C5QPKT2K/downloa...
I was just going through my computer to delete large files I no longer need and found this summary of why I dislike Wide Sargasso Sea.I read Wide Sargasso Sea in 1980 and I hated it. I read everything by Jean Rhys when I was a postdoc in Strasbourg and very depressed. Jean Rhys is what one reads when depressed..... I haven't been able to touch any of her writing since. I used to own a copy of WSS but threw it out. Nearly all her books are about these pathetic, sad women living in one room in Paris and trailing around in unhappy relationships with men for money. Prostitutes really. I felt like screaming "get your life together!!"
I have no sympathy for Bertha Mason, and despite being a POC, I am not sure I agree with the "Madwoman in the Attic" critical interpretation of what she symbolizes-colonialized blah blah blah... As an Indian, I am more interested in St. John Rivers going out there to convert the "natives".... Everyone bangs on about Bertha but few critics discuss St. John/India in any depth. Mostly they know nothing about India. In fact, my theory, based on the history of colonialism in India in the 18th century is that Aunt Reed herself may be as much as 1/4 Indian....her son John routinely makes fun of her "dark complexion", which he has inherited. No critic ever comments on this. What an extraordinary oversight!
Then there's my previous comment about the laws restricting missionary activity in India until 1845.
I thought it was an interesting idea to write Bertha Mason's side, but the book doesn't quite come off and besides, after reading "Qui est la, qui est la? Che' Coco" twenty times (engraved in my brain), and all the madness.... one realizes that there is no story because what can you say about a mad person? Yes, she was trapped, but anyone with half a brain could have escaped.
I grew up with an arranged marriage hanging over my head for years, but I made a plan and escaped. It wasn't easy and I am not even white. Bertha is passive. Rochester too, is a victim of the Law of Entail-he has an arranged marriage also, but he learns from his mistakes. In fact, he is unique in being presented as being as much a victim of the Law of Entail as any woman. He is the obverse of Elizabeth Bennett. Nobody writes about younger sons. Jane is tough, and interesting because she is smart and escapes circumstances that are much harder than Bertha's ever were. SHE is my inspiration, not Bertha.
Sandya wrote: "I was just going through my computer to delete large files I no longer need and found this summary of why I dislike Wide Sargasso Sea.I read Wide Sargasso Sea in 1980 and I hated it. I read every..."
Her name was NOT Bertha,. Her name was Antoinette. (Rochester) called her Bertha. He took away her identity by calling her Bertha, Despicable.
Tam wrote: "CCCubbon wrote: "It was very early this morning , about half past six when I posted that reference to the Manet painting , one I remembered simply to illustrate nude women with clothed men in a pai..."My that’s such a moving picture, Tam. Tuberculosis was still common when I was young, my MinL suffered from it.
I was reading the other day how they have found evidence that it was a disease widespread globally, evidence from bones dating back 9,000 years. All that suffering.
I was disappointed in the Munch ‘Scream’ that I saw in Oslo for it seemed very flat.
I do like some of the sculptures , thought David by Michelangelo was magnificent. I read that Renaissance artists were copying the Classical Greek and Roman sculptures and that is why the nudity returned then in art, don’t know if that is true.
giveusaclue wrote: "MK wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Sandya wrote: "The Greatest Knight: The Remarkable Life of William Marshal, The Power Behind Five English Thrones|23456467].Give it a try MK, I find him a fascinat..."
I don't know about more recent books, but this is the work that first brought that character to academic light .
After all this Wide Saragasso Sea chat, i maybe will read it before i read "Quartet" which was my next Rhys on pileI love Jean Rhys and her West Indian background...
I read Out of the Silent Planet this week, intrigued by Jake Morrissey’s description of the set-up. That was accurate as far as it goes, but the book didn’t deliver for me in the working out of the plot. The first half, once the protagonist gets to Malacandra (Mars), is pretty much a re-working of Stanley G. Weinbaum's "A Martian Odyssey", after which the story becomes a kind of theological speculative fiction which doesn’t stray too far from Christian orthodoxy, which didn’t surprise me too much given Lewis’ reputation as a proselytizer. Speaking of missionaries converting the heathen, I was impressed that Lewis, in making his Mars a kind of unfallen world, was able to embody the evil and arrogance of colonization in his two human villains (there are no Martian villains) without at all having to deal with the closely related idea of missionaries and conversion, with which he would presumably be in sympathy: the Martians already subscribe to a universally accepted theology which maps unto the Christian worldview so closely as to make conversion superfluous.
Slawkenbergius wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "MK wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Sandya wrote: "The Greatest Knight: The Remarkable Life of William Marshal, The Power Behind Five English Thrones|23456467].Give it a try MK, I..."I
All the stories written over the last century stem from this I believe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27His...
I know it is wiki but it gives an interesting insight and it is pure good luck that Paul Meyer came across the only remaining copy at an auction in 1861 but it was bought by Sir Thomas Phillipps and Meyer then tracked it down after his death. Serendipity?
Strangely, although William had 5 sons and 5 daughters who survived, none of the sons had heirs so the earldom died after no 5 died. But through his daughters' descendents he is an ancestor of Queen Jane Seymour and Robert the Bruce, and so the Stuart dynasty and our current royal family.
Thanks for the heads up to the Duby book - I have managed to track a copy down at AbeBooks and ordered it - £2.96 plus £2.37 postage. A snip!
Georg wrote: "Sandya wrote: "I was just going through my computer to delete large files I no longer need and found this summary of why I dislike Wide Sargasso Sea.I read Wide Sargasso Sea in 1980 and I hated i..."
She is Bertha in Jane Eyre. I thought the Antoinette -Bertha thing was equally idiotic. There is no evidence in the original novel for it.
scarletnoir wrote: "I think Himes is simply showing the kinds of attitudes and the type of language being used at the time..."That accounts for some of it, for sure - as it would in Fleming as well, for that matter. But there are some lines from the narration - and I mean straight, authorial-voice narration, not free indirect style/discourse - that I suspect would strike many modern readers as racist, especially if they were ignorant of the author's background.
Anyway, I dnt want to harp too much on that aspect of the book: bottom line, it's a well-written noir novel that can stand with the best of its period and genre. I'll be looking for more Himes very soon.
One thing I'm curious about - and another possible point of comparison with the Bond novels - is how Coffin Ed and Gravedigger are portrayed in the later books: goodreads counts A Rage in Harlem as the first of a series starring those two characters but in this one they play strictly supporting rôles. Do they become more clearly the protagonists in the later instalments? Are they presented in a more sympathetic, reader-friendly way? I look forward to finding out.
Bill wrote: "Tam wrote: "There were different conventions for 'Christian' nudes and they aren't that common, except for Adam and Eve portrayals, and they tend to be of the rather coy variety, or very droll rath..."I think that's exactly it: Cranach, though not much separated in time from the Italian Renaissance artists, was spiritually still part of the mediaeval world that saw the human body as shameful and therefore mean and ugly. Da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Raphael, had been inspired by Greco-Roman humanism to see the body as an object of beauty, something to be celebrated.
Mephistoheles is at home in the Mediaeval world-view and feels out of sorts in the "Classical Walpurgis Night", where this particular framework of good vs evil does not apply.
I imagine this is one of the ideas Nietzsche had in mind, in a broad sense, with his Beyond Good and Evil - and I also imagine, though I haven't read enough to know if anyone ever bothered pointing it out explicitly, that deconsructionism with its analysis of binary oppositions, would also have something to say about it.
CCCubbon wrote: "there were less than 5% painted by women but 85% of the nudes were female.Baring in mind..."
"Baring" in mind, eh, CCC?
Typo or freudian slip? ;-)
Bit of both I think but it did make me laugh.
Berkley wrote: "One thing I'm curious about - and another possible point of comparison with the Bond novels - is how Coffin Ed and Gravedigger are portrayed in the later books: goodreads counts A Rage in Harlem as the first of a series starring those two characters but in this one they play strictly supporting rôles. Do they become more clearly the protagonists in the later instalments? Are they presented in a more sympathetic, reader-friendly way? I look forward to finding out."Absolutely - the two cops become much more centre stage in the later novels - I have read three more in the series (I forget if there are more). As for becoming 'more sympathetic' - they remain ruthless, but we learn a bit more about their backgrounds and family life, so I suppose the reader 'sympathises' more with them - having a better understanding of where they come from - even if they are not exactly 'sympathetic'. If that makes sense.
(To go back to that first book - I was disappointed that the most amusing character was killed off fairly early - his brother, the hearse driver, makes a short appearance in a later book.)
Greenfairy wrote: "Anne Seba; Ethel Rosenberg: What happened to the Rosenbergs was little short of human sacrifice.
Seba writes of a woman who just didn't fit with the ideas of what in '50s America made a perfect wi..."
Would the case be thrown out today? In the 1970s, Louis Nizer, a brilliant trial lawyer, reviewed the Rosenberg case in The Implosion Conspiracy. There were other defendants besides the Rosenbergs. Nizer wrote a very interesting account of the trial and appeals.
At issue was the charge of espionage. A physicist admitted that he had leaked atomic secrets to Russia; others were charged with smuggling details of the atomic bomb's construction to Russia.
Nizer reviewed the atmosphere of a case brought in wartime; the Korean War had begun in 1950. He brought out the unusual tensions in a case where important witnesses for the prosecution were Ethel Rosenberg's brother and sister in law. There were communal tensions, too. The judge, the lead prosecutor, Saypol, and his chief assistant, Cohn, were Jewish; so were defendants, key witnesses, and defense attorneys.
The Rosenbergs' communist politics were at issue because they went to motive. Nizer found sufficient evidence to convict; so did the appellate judges whose reasoning he summarizes. There were repeated efforts to involve the US Supreme Court; these failed.
Nizer concludes that the trial was fair.
Nizer mentions one last bizarre episode. The Rosenbergs' children were watching a baseball game on television, which seemed a harmless distraction. Then the screen flashed a bulletin: "President Eisenhower has denied Julius and Ethel's request for clemency. They must die tonight." So they did....
Sandya wrote: She is Bertha in Jane Eyre. I thought the Antoinette -Bertha thing was equally idiotic. There is no evidence in the original novel for it.Yes, but you also called her Bertha when you wrote about WSS.
Idiotic? (Rocherster) called her Bertha because that was the name of her mother. Who had gone "mad". A fine example of calculated cruelty.
giveusaclue wrote: "Machenbach wrote: "giveusaclue wrote: "Vargas Llosa is brilliant."So this Llosa chap, is he very Welsh?"
=
Haha, and no it wasn't me who said that Vargas Lllosa is brilliant - I wouldn't know. va..."
Vargas Llosa is at least as Welsh as most educated Peruvians.
Anne wrote: "Tam wrote: "I think I, personally, if I was in your position would read a few reviews of the book, and make comments from the reviews. ..."Oh no. I think if you're in a book group then you have t..."
If people dislike the book, they may simply skip the meeting.
Anne wrote: "Hushpuppy wrote: "I have never read any Ruth Rendell. Any advice of where to start if I come across one?."I don't know Rendell's work very well at all, but she wrote her more straightforward cri..."
Rendell's A Guilty Thing Surprised was a good book. My late wife was a fan of her Inspector Wexford books; she wrote psychological crime stories under both the Rendell and Vine names.
Journals of Travel in Iceland 1871-73 by WIlliam Morris has re-ignited my late evening journal/diary reading after the slightly bizarre Grass 1990 diary.Morris manages to keep the prose moving fast, while sticking to a fairly basic travel description plan, by adding in humorous asides, observations of the people, vivid descriptions of places due to his artistic mind and the folklore connection.
Morris spoke Icelandic and brings to the journals a rich sense of the saga history and the places where they occured.
I'm on the first leg of the journey now, through the Southern region of Iceland, east from Reykjavik towards the Eyjafjallajökull volcano. Morris travels on icelandic ponies with 2 english friends and three Icelanders. He observes the haymaking at every stead they pass, it is mid July and the midnight sun is constant
Georg wrote: "(Rocherster) called her Bertha because that was the name of her mother. Who had gone "mad". A fine example of calculated cruelty."This argument about names got me curious about the name used in Jane Eyre (I think, after finishing it, though she is named several times in the text, I couldn’t have, from memory, attached a name to “the madwoman in the attic”.) Her name is first given in Richard Mason’s affidavit:
“‘I affirm and can prove that on the 20th of October A.D. —— (a date of fifteen years back), Edward Fairfax Rochester, of Thornfield Hall, in the county of ——, and of Ferndean Manor, in ——shire, England, was married to my sister, Bertha Antoinetta Mason, daughter of Jonas Mason, merchant, and of Antoinetta his wife, a Creole, at —— church, Spanish Town, Jamaica. The record of the marriage will be found in the register of that church—a copy of it is now in my possession. Signed, Richard Mason.’”So it is Rhys who calls the character by her mother’s name, which is actually her middle name.
Robert wrote: "Rendell's A Guilty Thing Surprised was a good book. My late wife was a fan of her Inspector Wexford books; she wrote psychological crime stories under both the Rendell and Vine names."I read quite a few Wexfords a while back - perfectly decent stories, though as with some other authors I think Rendell should have quit while she was ahead - at least one later book was very disappointing, probably The Monster in the Box, though I am not 100% certain.
The Wexford books were adapted for TV with the estimable George Baker in the title role, and a number of her other standalone titles were shown as the 'Ruth Rendell Mysteries'.
So - my advice would be to read the earlier stories first.
Yesterday I checked out the annual August book sale at a neighborhood church. I managed to find 6 paperbacks including the second Tony Hillerman - Jim Chee mystery, A Thief of Time which is not available as an e-audio from the library.I started re-reading, actually download listening, to this great series this summer. If you are a mystery reader and like a little something extra as in learning about the Navajo way of life, this is a great series for you.
Tony Hillerman
PS - For all Britishers here, be glad you have all those charity shops to wander through. We have nothing like that in the USA. I think it's because storefront rents are much too high here.
By its nature, Wide Sargasso Sea forces the reader into some degree of metafictional thinking. Rhys’ novel can be seen as a kind of January 6 insurrection against Brontë’s book: an attempt to establish Bertha / Antoinette as the “real heroine” of Jane Eyre. Like that late attempt, it undermines but does not undo the established narrative – the end of WSS is congruent with events in Jane Eyre - and leaves in its wake a sizeable subset of readers who have become “true believers”, inextricably incorporating Rhys’ interpretations into their own reading of the earlier novel.Part 2 of Wide Sargasso Sea is then a kind of Capitol Police Force, a weak counterinsurgency against the narrative Rhys is establishing. The male POV character attempts to wrest the narrative from his rogue misandrist author and reestablish Brontë’s original, thus his use of Brontë’s “Bertha” rather than Rhys’ “Antoinette”, but he inevitably fails to gain the level of independence that would allow him to break out of the anonymity imposed upon him (talk about robbing someone of their name!) and establish his own identity as Brontë’s Rochester.
For further consideration of a pre-existing character in conflict with an author who has appropriated them, see ”Duck Amuck”.
Today, it was my godchild's first day at school. She received a book by her school as a welcome present - these are given to every child, meant to entice them to have fun reading and, due to a fluffy "number monster", also fun with numbers.She took me aside and asked me to read the book to her this afternoon, neglecting her guests - turning out quite the voracious bookworm! So I read just one chapter to her, she also solved pertaining puzzles, and then she wanted to hear the next, and so on... It was great fun (it makes perfect sense to tickle the child when imitating the cuddly number monster!), and, as the book does not feature that many pages, none of the guests minded.
What I liked about the book
https://www.amazon.de/Schulgeschichte...
is that it is very much tailored to children's interests, not over-didactic, and that the initiative and the good ideas are not distributed along any gender lines (always disliked these books where only the boys were brilliant - and the girls just their dimmer foils).
scarletnoir: I have started with Intrigue à Giverny, but I had to interrupt reading it on the train yesterday - turns out I am unable to focus on reading French with background noise (usually o.k. for me, except for these idiots, you might know them, too, shouting into their phones).
So I was looking for something different/ shorter texts and found Toni Morrison's The Source of Self-Regard: Selected Essays, Speeches, and Meditations
in a train station book shop just now and started reading it waiting for the (delayed) train. So far, so good. Train quiet so far, too.Holiday coming up tomorrow - am hoping to regain more focus in the next week.
Meanwhile, enjoying the lively debates here, in particular the ones on paintings and reading and nudes...
Also loved your Faust quote, Bill. It's very funny indeed, the devil discombulated by the too-antique nakedness. You might know that Mephisto, just a few lines below, asks, "Are there any British here?"
Bill wrote:...was married to my sister, Bertha Antoinetta Mason, daughter of Jonas Mason, merchant, and of Antoinetta his wife...I am getting confused. Bertha Antoinette was not the daughter of Jonas Mason, she was the daughter of Cosway. And her mother was not called Antoinette, her first name was Annette.
So I got her mother's name wrong. Not Bertha. I still think it is beyond the pale to change Antoinettes name to Bertha. Would anybody called Bill like to be called, say: 'Jeremiah'? Even if it were his first or second forename?
And misandry? Really? As a woman I might be biased. But I think (Rochesters) treatment of Antoinette would nowadays be classified as emotional abuse.
Bill wrote: "By its nature, Wide Sargasso Sea forces the reader into some degree of metafictional thinking."Thanks Swelter. I've followed the whole conversation on WSS and JE with interest. Until I read your review, I hadn't appreciated that whole sections of WSS had been cut. The fact that, in Part II, the promiscuous behaviour of Antoinetta (or Bertha's, as it is alluded to in JE) is shown to be perhaps only the figment of (Rochester)'s imagination, fuelled by the envious gossips of the Cosway "cousin", and (Rochester)'s own progressive rejection of Antoinetta's sexual openness towards him, makes the narrative stronger in my view. These are not facts, but more simply and sadly two men's points of view, whose hatred of Antoinetta crystallise around her sexuality.
I have yet to read some academic papers I've found on the subject, but would be happy to find an answer here instead. Antoinetta is meant to be White Creole. Her (nice) cousin is "coloured". While I was reading the novel, I assumed at the start that Antoinetta was multiracial. But then I realised that nothing (I think) ever described her mum as Black, only as coming from Martinique. Her being White Creole seems actually to speak to the fact that she looks European, but, as per her cultural heritage, acts, talks and dresses differently from e.g., English people like Mason or (Rochester). So while she is other, neither European (White), nor Black - and rejected to some extent by both - she is not of mixed race. At least, that's my understanding of it...
@Sandya - yes, I agree that the lofty goal of Jane's cousin does leave her in awe, to the extent that she's ready to sacrifice her well-being and health to accompany him on his "mission" despite being financially independent, but nothing to me really explains how she can consider, even for a second, marrying him when she is repulsed by his attitude towards his own emotions. The loss of Rochester can probably explain a lot of her fragility, but still... I found myself puzzled, and a little bit angry at her.
Edit: And thanks to everyone for the recs on Rendell!
Shelflife_wasBooklooker wrote: "You might know that Mephisto, just a few lines below, asks, "Are there any British here?""I had forgotten that:
MEPHISTOPHELES:Was this a German stereotype of the British?
Mit vielen Namen glaubt man mich zu nennen--
Sind Briten hier? Sie reisen sonst so viel,
Schlachtfeldern nachzuspüren, Wasserfällen,
Gestürzten Mauern, klassisch dumpfen Stellen;
Das wäre hier für sie ein würdig Ziel.
Sie zeugten auch: Im alten Bühnenspiel
Sah man mich dort als old Iniquity.
And for those who, like me, are fascinated by polylingual rhymes, the next line is:
SPINX:
Wie kam man drauf? +
MEPHISTOPHELES:
Ich weiß es selbst nicht wie.
Georg wrote: "I am getting confused. Bertha Antoinette was not the daughter of Jonas Mason, she was the daughter of Cosway. And her mother was not called Antoinette, her first name was Annette. ...And misandry? Really? As a woman I might be biased. But I think (Rochesters) treatment of Antoinette would nowadays be classified as emotional abuse."
The whole Cosway family and Antoinette / Bertha being a step-child to Mason were modifications introduced by Rhys. In Bronte, she is Mason's daughter and Richard's sister.
If a male writer's creation of a horrid and emotionally abusive female character (let's say Stoner's wife Edith) can justify claims of misogyny, why shouldn't the creation of a similarly cruel and abusive male character whose point of view is presented without the least hint of authorial sympathy give rise to suspicions of misandry?
MK wrote: "Yesterday I checked out the annual August book sale at a neighborhood church. I managed to find 6 paperbacks including the second Tony Hillerman - Jim Chee mystery, A Thief of Time wh..."arent thrift stores the USA equivulent? or am i just totally on wrong track?
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Ersatz TLS
Books mentioned in this topic
Her Heart for a Compass (other topics)Mr Wilder & Me (other topics)
Mill Town: Reckoning with What Remains (other topics)
My Golden Trades (other topics)
The House of Sleep (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Jazmina Barrera (other topics)Jazmina Barrera (other topics)
Marian Engel (other topics)
Jonathan Coe (other topics)
B.S. Johnson (other topics)
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About five minutes in I thought: Hang on! This sounds familiar!
As indeed it was. It is an adaptation of Dürrenmatts play "The Visit..."
My objection is to the tediousness of the Romeo & Juliet theme. For God's sake, isn't there anything more interesting to write about?