Aspern Papers, The: Buddy Read

[Katy, Quarterly Long Reads]

The Aspern Papers by Henry James is a buddy read starting in August 2021.

Hope you can join in the discussion.

[Christopher]

I read this recently, and would be interested in a discussion.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Hi, Christopher. I started reading tonight. Going to be a good one. Looking forward to the discussion.

[Kathleen]

Oh boy--I'd better get going! Going to finish up a book today and hope to start tonight.

[Sue]

I started last night too. It's official, Henry James is now among my favorite writers. His writing plops me right down in a cozy invisible chair to observe the scene. The way he expertly crafts his sentences is astounding.

I'm loving the Venice setting. Juliana Borderau's villa feels haunting and creepy. She is reminding me of Miss Havisham from Great Expectations.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I feel the same way, Sue. James transports you to the place and time he is writing about...I could see the pink in the walls of the villa and envision the transformation of the garden. Love the comparison to Havisham, they do indeed have the same sense of decrepitness about them.

[Terris]

I also just started. I think I'm really going to enjoy it!

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I just finished and gathering thoughts. I liked this immensely. It has that same feeling The Turn of the Screw gave me...the feeling that you don't really know what is going on until the end.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

The character of Juliana is based on Claire Clairmont, step-sister to Mary Shelley, lover to Lord Byron, and perhaps lover to Percy Shelley himself. This is an interesting article, if you are so inclined:

https://wordsworth.org.uk/blog/2014/0...

[Kathleen]

Oh dear, I haven't started yet. Will you guys promise to hang around and discuss this with me? :-)

So glad you enjoyed it, Sara. The story about Claire Clairmont is noted on my book jacket, but I didn't know she was Mary Shelley's sister. Fascinating! Will look at your link after reading.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Oh yes, Kathleen. I am excited about discussing this. I hope we are going to dissect both the events and the characters!

[Janelle]

I’m going to try and read this soon. It fits in with a lot of books I’ve been reading lately.

[Sue]

I'm finished this is my spoiler free review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show... but I've got more to say here and am looking forward to the discussion!

[Sue]

Sara wrote: "I just finished and gathering thoughts. I liked this immensely. It has that same feeling The Turn of the Screw gave me...the feeling that you don't really know what is going on until the end."

As I said on your review, Sara. I thought of Turn of the Screw too. He makes creepy so realistic by not overdoing it. The way he holds back, you aren't really sure of how far he will go.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Exactly, Sue. I want to give people time to get this one read, after all we were only meant to start today, but really looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

[Sue]

Sara wrote: "The character of Juliana is based on Claire Clairmont, step-sister to Mary Shelley, lover to Lord Byron, and perhaps lover to Percy Shelley himself. This is an interesting article, if you are so in..."

That article is so interesting and heartbreaking, Sara. If I had read that before reading The Aspern Papers, I may have thought differently about why Miss Bodereau held the papers.

(view spoiler)[ I thought she held them because of their great love being too private and that maybe her niece was actually their daughter, but that article makes me think of the possibility that maybe she was the author of his poems? The narrator does say a couple of times that Asbern was not a women's poet but doesn't he doesn't expound on it. It could be just that he thought women couldn't feel as deeply and then also wouldn't suspect a women could write as deeply.


I love how James leaves a lot to the imagination regardless. (hide spoiler)]

[Kathleen]

Enticing comments, Sue! I'm about half-way, and am also enjoying James' writing as expected, and the way he captures the feel of Venice. I haven't read The Turn of the Screw yet(!), but this is reminding me a little of The Spoils of Poynton, though it has been decades since I read it.

Hoping to be done by tomorrow ...

[Christopher]

Janelle wrote: "I’m going to try and read this soon. It fits in with a lot of books I’ve been reading lately."

I noticed too that this fits in with a lot of other books, mostly anything set in Venice, like Death in Venice, or The Talented Mr. Ripley; but mainly I turned to this because it was a source of inspiration for Possession

[Kathleen]

Finished, and I am so looking forward to discussing this! I see what you mean about dissecting the events and the characters, Sara. Can't wait. :-)

[Terris]

I also finished, and now I want to read more Henry James! I really enjoyed the story and James's writing style. Looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say about this one! :)

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Okay, here goes: (view spoiler)[One of the things Henry James does marvelously well is plant question marks. Who is playing Whom in this little trio? I think the plot could have been almost boring had there not been so much to dislike about each of the three main characters. The narrator is on a bit of a despicable mission, to literally steal private papers from a very old lady, but then the old lady turns out to be so creepy herself and apparently willing to admit the narrator, despite suspicions she obviously harbors, simply to get his money. The niece, Miss Tita, might have been more of a victim, but she is willing to discuss betraying her benefactress Aunt in order to secure the promise of a marriage from our narrator. And, back to him again--he actually considers marrying her just so he can get his hands on the papers. This carries obsession and celebrity worship to a step beyond the pall for me.

I wondered from the beginning if the papers existed at all, and we have no proof that they do other than Tita's word. If they do, did she ever truly intend to give them to our narrator or was she just toying with him. The women, after all, got a lot of his money, which is fine because he was deserving of being fleeced.

I really expected Tita to say the papers had been buried with Juliana, and was somewhat proud of Henry James for avoiding that obvious plot turn. (hide spoiler)]

I'm going to shut up for now, but I'm sure I will have more to say when you guys have put your thoughts to the page.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Oh, Sue, (view spoiler)[what an intriguing idea that she may have authored the poems. Although I read that about Shelley, it never occurred to me to transfer that element to this story. You are so right that Henry James leaves us a great deal to decide for ourselves...an intelligent writer who expects an intelligent reader. (hide spoiler)]

[Kathleen]

Sue wrote: "Sara wrote: "The character of Juliana is based on Claire Clairmont, step-sister to Mary Shelley, lover to Lord Byron, and perhaps lover to Percy Shelley himself. This is an interesting article, if ..."

Sue! About your spoiler, I had the same thought! I was going to ask, (view spoiler)[Was Tina really Julianna's love child? but I never thought of her actually authoring the poems! (hide spoiler)]

[Kathleen]

Sara wrote: "Okay, here goes: One of the things Henry James does marvelously well is plant question marks. Who is playing Whom in this little trio? I think the plot could have been almost boring had there not b..."

I love your points, Sara! (view spoiler)[I was going to ask about an unreliable narrator, but for me, the most unreliable of all was Tita (Tina in my book). I don't know for sure about anything she said. (hide spoiler)]

[Kathleen]

So here was my first thoughts:

(view spoiler)[I remember a Kurt Vonnegut quote, “Make your characters want something right away even if it's only a glass of water.” It certainly seemed each of these characters wanted something, but the brilliant part was that we aren't sure what it was. What did you all think? The narrator wanted the papers, but what about Juliana? Was it privacy? To be left alone? But she wanted even more something for Tina, and she was willing to use what she had to get it. Tina baffled me though. What did she want? Flowers? A life?

I have lots more questions, but just one more for now. What was up with the green shade? So intriguing! (hide spoiler)]

[Sue]

I agree with your thoughts, Sara. Also (view spoiler)[ The narrator was sort of a victim too. He was egged on by Mrs. Prest. He never would have went that far if she hadn't laid out in detail how it could be done. She was the whisper in his ear the way Miss Bordereau whispered in Tita's.

The narrator became like a stalker who doesn't realize how far he's gone. Once you cross a line, there is no point of return!

It's interesting that if our narrator had never come along, then Miss Bordereau would have left Tita pretty destitute. Maybe she planned on leaving the papers with her to sell either way? (hide spoiler)]

[Sue]

Kathleen wrote: "Sue wrote: "Sara wrote: "The character of Juliana is based on Claire Clairmont, step-sister to Mary Shelley, lover to Lord Byron, and perhaps lover to Percy Shelley himself. This is an interesting ..."

Kathleen, (view spoiler)[ That is strange that her name is Tina vs Tita in different books when it's not translated. That is a great quote from Vonnegut.

I think Juliana wanted Tita/Tina to be taken care of. Tita probably did want a life, but also to be taken care of.

It is intriguing and as Sara said I think he does expect an intelligent reader.

I've always thought the best art lends itself to different interpretations and James has done this with all three that I've read so far (Turn of the Screw, Portrait of a Lady and this). (hide spoiler)]

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Kathleen wrote: "So here was my first thoughts:

I remember a Kurt Vonnegut quote, “Make your characters want something right away even if it's only a glass of water.” It certainly seemed each of these characters w..."

How marvelous that quote is and the question you have posed. (view spoiler)[I know the narrator wanted the papers, but it seemed to me he hung around even when he thought there was no possibility that he would get them, so I think he wanted more than that...a connection to someone, to Jeffrey Aspen, and perhaps that is a desire to be connected to fame. I have certainly known people who have a small brush with a celebrity and then talk about them as if they were fast friends. And, we have seen the stalker-types who seem to put the celebrity above their own well-being. Like any obsession, this one has taken over.

Juliana wants people to know she was once loved by someone who counted (or why produce the portrait?), but she doesn't want to share the details...so, she wants her privacy on her own terms. We've also seen people who do this--they put their most private moments on display and dangle them, but then they resent when someone asks the obvious follow-up questions. And, I think Juliana does want Tita to be taken care of when she is gone.

Tita/Tina (how weird she has two names) is the least transparent for me. She wants a man in her life, but pretty much knows she isn't getting one the usual way. She hasn't got money to tempt a man to marry her, so the narrator has offered himself on a platter, since she has what he wants. She might also just like the feeling of being in control for once. I doubt she was ever in control for a moment with Juliana.

As for the green shade, I couldn't decide if that was just to add intrigue and mystery to the story or if it was meant to be significant that she hid her eyes, which were the focal point of the poems Aspern had written about her. Another bit of her privacy to which she intentionally draws attention. (hide spoiler)]

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Sue wrote: "I agree with your thoughts, Sara. Also The narrator was sort of a victim too. He was egged on by Mrs. Prest. He never would have went that far if she hadn't laid out in detail how it could be done..."

Absolutely, Sue. (view spoiler)[the narrator is pushed by both Mrs. Prest and the friend (whose name escapes me but started with a C) who wrote the initial letter. Your thoughts raised one in me...what if the money the narrator provided is what made it possible for them to destroy the papers. After all, without the money, Tita might have been obliged to sell them for whatever she could get. So, the narrator, instead of securing the papers, secured their destruction. (hide spoiler)]

I am also one who enjoys a book that is open to different interpretations and where a case can be made, using the text, for very different scenarios. James is masterful at doing this. I bet he liked puzzles.

[Sam]

I have a question for the fellow readers. I was reading the 1888 version while listening to what I thought was an audiobook of the 1902 New York Edition, revised by James. I am curious if anyone else read the New York Edition, and if so, could someone clarify the last line in the book. In my audio version, it was different, but I wanted to be sure it was the line revised by James and not something done by the audio publisher. Here is the line from my audio. (view spoiler)[ "When I look at it I can scarcely bare my loss, I mean, of the precious papers." I am only guessing at the punctuation, since in the audio, the narrator takes a long pause after loss adding the remainder of the sentence as an almost parenthetical statement. (hide spoiler)]

This was my third read of this over my lifetime. It has finally reached five star status with this read. Just incredible was the amount of depth and ambiguity, as already mentioned, in this novella.

[Kathleen]

Sara wrote: "Kathleen wrote: "So here was my first thoughts:

I remember a Kurt Vonnegut quote, “Make your characters want something right away even if it's only a glass of water.” It certainly seemed each of t..."

Fantastic comments! Especially (view spoiler)[I like what you say about Tita wanting to be in control. That is brilliant--it sheds light on some of her actions. She hasn't been able to practice the related skills, but of course she is hungry for it. And the eyes--I forgot that was what the poem about Juliana was about. Of course! (hide spoiler)]

[Kathleen]

Sam wrote: "I have a question for the fellow readers. I was reading the 1888 version while listening to what I thought was an audiobook of the 1902 New York Edition, revised by James. I am curious if anyone el..."

So glad to hear you've enjoyed multiple reads of this, Sam. I can definitely see re-reads in my future.

My Dover Thrift Edition copy says it is a "republication of the revised version of the work from the New York edition" published in 1908. It has the last sentence that you shared. (Only difference in punctuation is ... bear my loss--I mean of the ...)

But, as I mentioned, it refers to Tita as Tina, what I read was a later revision by James.

[Kathleen]

Just want to share that it's Percy Bysshe Shelley's birthday today! Born in 1792.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Sam, my version ends (view spoiler)["When I look at it my chagrin at the loss of the papers becomes almost intolerable." (hide spoiler)]

I think I like the last line you have better...so much implied there. I wasn't aware that James had revised it. Now I feel I need to go read that version and see if there are other changes.

What a coincidence that we would have Shelley's birthday at this time. Wrote one of my favorite poems that makes a remarkable point in its last stanza:

My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

[Sam]

Thanks Sara and Kathleen for your help. Yes those revisions were for the later edition.Jamed revised many of his earler works. In this case, the change of the ending line makes a difference in my perception of the narrator. I see him in a much more sympathetic light.

[Kathleen]

I've never read that poem, Sara, so I went out to read the whole thing. You are so right--it is a remarkable point, and interesting to think about in relation to this story! Thank you for sharing that.

I wonder too if there are any more differences between the versions.

I've been thinking about the way James described the villa, wondering what gave it such a creepy vibe. James is so subtle! I liked the way he emphasized all the openness, and yet they were shut apart inside.

And also about Venice, how it can be seen as old and crumbling, but with echoes of such beauty and history. What a great background for Juliana, an aging former-beauty who was an intimate with long-dead gods.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Kathleen wrote: "And also about Venice, how it can be seen as old and crumbling, but with echoes of such beauty and history. What a great background for Juliana, an aging former-beauty who was an intimate with long-dead gods."

Wow, Kathleen. That is a comparison worth exploring, Juliana and Venice.