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Regency Buck July 2021 Read- Spoilers thread!
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Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂
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rated it 4 stars
Jul 01, 2021 02:48AM
For open spoilers & final conclusions. Please still use spoiler tags though if you are discussing any other GH title! :)
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since this is not one of my favorites I am looking forward to reading posts from those who like the book: see it from a new angle, perhaps. so far I have read a bit of Judith and Peregrine spectulating about Lord Worth, who they think of as an Old Man, clearly, as he must be "going on for 55 or 56".
as someone who is soon to turn 60 this makes me roll my eyes!
I read it with this group some time ago. It was ok but not great. It felt like she was anxious to throw out all the "big names" (Allmack's, Lord Brummell, the Prince Regent... like there was some elements she felt she "had" to mention since the story was set in this era) and all her knowledge of the period at the reader. In short, a bit wooden and not as smooth as her later books.I did enjoy Peregrine's escapades like the boxing match or the cock fight (I guess she didn't explore these scenes of Regency life much in other books, so it was interesting).
Mod
That's what I felt. Was it her first Regency? I think it's the only one with so many real people in.
What really puts me off it is Worth's character and behaviour when we first see him - his arrogance, rudeness and the total contempt with which he treats Judith and Perry. He constantly puts them down for no reason except that he enjoys it; in fact, he's a bully. He's never again quite so obnoxious, but this doesn't seem to be a development of his character - it seems more as if the author had forgotten that he possessed these traits.
I really don't like his interaction with Judith either: he gets the better of her every time, and she often sets herself up for defeat, by challenging him in areas where she should have known she couldn't win - changing her mind about the house in Brighton, for example. This is really a 'Taming of the Shrew' kind of story and given that we are mostly experiencing it through Judith's eyes, we feel her humiliation too, which makes very unpleasant reading. It wouldn't be so bad if Worth came a cropper a few times too, as he deserves, but it's so very one-sided: in the end he has moulded her into the kind of woman who suits him, and though he does seem to be a better person at the end than he was at the beginning there's no sense that this is her achievement.
I think GH did better with her 'fiery beauty meets masterful man' in The Nonesuch, where (view spoiler) or Bath Tangle, where (view spoiler).
He's never again quite so obnoxious, but this doesn't seem to be a development of his character - it seems more as if the author had forgotten that he possessed these traits. I didn't remember specifically why I didn't care for this book, but there it is right in the beginning. Lord Worth treats both Judith and Perry so badly in the first few times they meet, for no reason, that I can't like him or care for what happens to him.
the mystery is pretty dull, too.
Judith I don't dislike in fact I feel sorry for her.
Jenny has pretty much covered what I didn't like about this book. I was very young & very new when I first read this title - & I preferred both Charles & Bernard (until he showed his true colours) to Worth.
Sums it up for me too. I didn’t really like Worth, and I found Judith’s behaviour petty at times. Also her habit of taking snuff seemed rather odd! I didn’t like the cockfighting, and the descriptions of the Pavilion became tiresome. I almost skimmed some of those, and usually I love historical detail. Heyer perhaps lacked some of the finesse she showed in later years for incorporating her research. Here it was just too much.
However, I did enjoy meeting characters like Brummell and the Prince Regent. Judith’s first meeting with the Beau was entertaining!
Now that she has just arrived in London, I am finding more sympathy for Judith. I'd forgotten she is so far from fashionable she thought that dining at 6 was late!
I'm enjoying meeting Mrs. Scattergood (what a great name) and love that she is up front about not being pretty, so she needs to be "odd", and her dismay that Judith is bookish is amusing. I'd forgotten about her character, apparently.
Mod
Yes, and the Duke of Clarence too! I've had a bit of a soft spot for him ever since I read about how kind he (and his wife) were to Mrs Fitzherbert after he succeeded to the throne. I feel sorry for Mrs Jordan, though.
I was intrigued by a reference to Miss Tylney Long (The Pocket Venus) and wondered what happened in the end between her and Wellesley Poole, who was Clarence's rival for her hand and who had also offered for Judith. So I looked her up, and it turned out to be a very sad story - she fell in love with him and married him in spite of advice from not only her family but his, and he was an utter bounder. She was the richest untitled heiress in the country, but in spite of all her family did to tie up her fortune, he spent the lot and dumped her for another woman, doing everything he could to bring the children up to be as dissipated as he was. She was only 35 when she died and the action her family brought against him after her death established a precedent in English law that an unfit father could be deprived of custody of his children. Judith (and Worth) did very well to turn him down!
Once again, I became irritated by the way Georgette Heyer. constantly showed the reader how much research she’d done. I know it was her first Regency, and so the temptation to show off must have been irresistible, but it became very annoying. When I first read Regency Buck in my teens, I adored Worth and really disliked Judith for most of the book. This time round, I still feel much the same. I loathed her self-important airs and contemptuous attitude. It got to the stage that every time Worth got one over on Judith, I’m afraid I cheered!
If anything, I disliked Judith even more this time round. Stubborn, capricious and incredibly stupid at times. She and Perry behaved like spoiled adolescents and Judith’s attitude towards Worth was so childish and decidedly unstrategic. Towards the end of the book she became a much more sympathetic character (and I liked her much better in AIA).
What I did quite enjoy was the ‘mystery’ element. The story would have been utterly boring without it. I was interested on reading it this time, to watch out for the clues that Heyer left for the reader.
For me, it’s still an okay read but nowhere in my top 15.
I didn't read it this time, but I am really enjoying the comments. I find it amusing that Jenny came away heartily disliking Worth and
Susan (Perthshire) is totally anti-Judith--yet they each read the same book!
That's what makes a group read so interesting and so much fun.
Barb in Maryland wrote: "I didn't read it this time, but I am really enjoying the comments. I find it amusing that Jenny came away heartily disliking Worth and
Susan (Perthshire) is totally anti-Judith--yet they each rea..."
I know, it really is odd, isn't it? but then in real life, I am often surprised at the different perceptions we may have about someone, from that which friends and families have!
Mod
It seems I am an outlier here - I actually enjoyed the book. It was my second read. It was one of the first Heyer's I read when I started reading her books a few years ago. I think I enjoyed it more this time around. My thoughts (and defence of Regency Buck....):- I felt that the humour was more understated that in other books, but it was certainly still there
- I actually think that Worth and Judith are well matched. She would run roughshod over most men. I agree with some of Susan from Perthshire's comments about Judith (capricious and a spolied adolescent). While Worth's behaviour at the start was unwarranted, I did forgive him and from the moment they arrived in London I felt he behaved well. Unusually for Heyer (and most historical romances) the romance was a long one - over a year
- I remember on the first reading wishing that she would end up with Charles rather than Worth, but on this read I can see that Worth is a much better match. Also, because I realised very early on that everything Worth was doing was in Judith and Perrys favour, I had a much better opinion of him early on
- I loved Peregrine and Lady Albinia. I would have like more of Albinia and less of Mrs Scattergood
- the historical detail a bit overdone for me. ?was it one of her first regency novels? If so, I think she was showing off. I did gloss over a lot of the descriptions of the pavillion
- yes, cockfights YUK
Mod
That's partly my objection - his subsequent behaviour isn't compatible with the way he behaved at first, except perhaps his persistence in calling Judith 'Clorinda' when he knows how much it humiliates her. There isn't really any explanation for the difference - if he had changed, he would surely have apologised, rather than continuing to taunt her? But he never does.
Susan wrote: "It seems I am an outlier here - I actually enjoyed the book. It was my second read. It was one of the first Heyer's I read when I started reading her books a few years ago. I think I enjoyed it mor..."Oh I wouldn't say you are an outlier :) I like the book well enough - & for me, even one of GH's weaker Regencies (& for me this isn't one of them!) is better than the best of any other Regency author. But it does have its flaws - & for me, Worth's character is one of them. He becomes very romantic at the end though!
& out of her Regency romances this covers the longest time period (I think of The Spanish Bride as a historical) & yes, this was her first Regency. She was obviously fond of the characters as some of them reappear in An Infamous Army.
& yes to the not wanting to waste a single bit of her research! It is interesting looking at a timeline of Gh's books - Regency Buck was first published in 1935, Royal Escape (which we are doing as a buddy read atm, although the discussion has pretty much wound down) was first published 1938. This flaw is also present in this book (about the future Charles II's escape from England)
I have to say I loved the descriptions about The Pavillion (which I visited the first time I went to England. I now skim over the boxing & cockfighting descriptions though!
Jenny wrote: "Susan wrote: "While Worth's behaviour at the start was unwarranted, I did forgive him and from the moment they arrived in London I felt he behaved well..."That's partly my objection - his subsequ..."
I don’t see him calling her ‘Clorinda’ as humiliating. In fact, the opposite - calling her Clorinda is a compliment. 😉
I think calling her Clorinda (after the first time) is meant to be gentle teasing. but he does behave horribly to both Judith and Perry, and then later is a nicer person and there is no explanation for the change.
Jenny wrote: "I did enjoy the bit when Perry is back from his cruise and goes around dancing hornpipes and singing sea shanties all the time! But there isn't much humour otherwise, is there?"No, I didn’t think so - like Barb, I’m taking a pass at another reread, as it was unavailable at my library, and one of my least favorites, for all the reasons Jenny, Judi and Susan in Perthshire pointed out. I think lack of humor and the usual witty dialogue was my biggest disappointment.
Jackie wrote: "I think calling her Clorinda (after the first time) is meant to be gentle teasing. but he does behave horribly to both Judith and Perry, and then later is a nicer person and there is no explanati..."
I don’t think he’s particularly horrible to either of them. In fact they’d have been justly served if he’d decided to play the even more heavy handed guardian! He would have been totally within his rights to send them back home. Whether by mistake or not, he was their guardian and they had ignored his stated wishes.
They are both arrogant and juvenile at the start of the book and for much of the story. Entitled, adolescent and impervious to all sensible advice.
Of course I’d have been much more sympathetic if I had liked Judith better. Worth, is for me, perfect.
Well it all goes back to Judith & Perry's father naming the wrong Lord Worth as the guardian, doesn't it? While that isn't this Lord Worth's fault, he certainly doesn't behave well. It isn't unreasonable of Judith to want a season. Marriage is the only career open to her & it sounded like there wasn't a suitable candidate where they lived.
Mod
I'm talking about when they first meet, though, before any of them know he is their guardian. He's extremely rude to them both (addressing Judith as 'my good girl') and completely out of order in the way he forces Judith into his carriage, forces her to allow him to put her shoe back on (we can see from her great embarrassment at being caught with a shoe off what an outrage this is in terms of the culture of the time - probably equivalent nowadays to adjusting a woman's bra) and then forcibly kissing her. And finally, having grossly insulted her by this treatment, sneeringly refuses her brother's challenge. No, not finally - he continues to remind her of the incident for months afterwards, in spite of her telling him how much it upsets her ("you ... taunt me with an episode in the past which covered me and still covers me with shame!") and though eventually he does apologise for the reminders he never apologises for the original behaviour.
exactly, Jenny, after that he is actually a sympathetic character, as when he teaches Perry he can't just run up debts and draw on his fortune. He's pretty tactful about it, really. He only behaves badly in the very beginning.
I find this quite a long winded book. There's a lot of description in it. Also the usual witty banter is missing. Any time Judith and Worth are together it's an argument or one trying to outdo the other in verbiage and it gets wearisome after a time. I'm nearly finished and overall I've enjoyed it but it definitely wouldn't be up there with my favourites.
I've finished. If the mystery hadn't been in it I think it would have been quite boring. Not a lot else happened. I didn't get the romance at all! Judith is not a likeable character. The only saving grace she has for me, is her love for her brother.
Mod
I find it weird that nothing can be done about Worth being saddled with a guardianship without his consent! After all, if the Taverners' father hadn't made the mistake about the numbering of the earls, then something would have had to be done about the fact that the person he named was dead, so there must have been some system in place for the person named refusing the charge.
It isn't unreasonable of Judith to want a season. Marriage is the only career open to her & it sounded like there wasn't a suitable candidate where they lived.
No, and given that she was both rich and good-looking it would have been a guardian's responsibility to make sure that those assets were put to the most advantageous market. It does look, from Worth's letter telling them not to come, as though he just couldn't be bothered with them; at least it's a reasonable inference for them to make.
Trying to catch up I just listened to the BBC's dramatized version, which is rather fun. Gary Cady makes a persuasive Bernard Taverner – I do like his voice, he's lovely as the BBC's David Copperfield. But I digress! What I really wanted to say is, this has never been a favourite, but with hindsight it's interesting to see Ms Heyer feel her way into the period. And the dialogue between Judith and Worth towards the end is a redeeming feature, totally cracked me up. In fact, I remembered the dialogue but had forgotten it was in this book!
All Judith’s problems are solved through Worth’s intervention. Compare this early Heyer regency with the later regency heroines. Annis , for example, knows her own mind, independent, No rescue needed.
a good point, Katie. Would everyone agree her writting improved since she wrote Regency Buck? what about those who really like the book, do you think she improved in later novels?
I think she got better at not including every historic detail, but on the other hand she might have ended up with way too much slang in later novels such as Lady of Quality.
I think Annis does get rescued by Oliver. Certainly it takes his intervention to vanquish the awful Maria Farlow! Annis is a victim of familial expectation and no amount of independence prevents that. I think Heyer’s writing does get better in subsequent books - but it’s already very good in RB. Her weakness here is definitely showing off her research. In later books like The Toll Gate, she is definitely guilty of using far too much cant. I now find it very irritating when I re-read such excerpts. The use of slang should be like spice in a dish; add savour to the story, not overwhelm it! I didn’t think she overused it in LoQ.
I'll just remind everyone to use spoiler tags if they want to discuss other Heyer books as we do have members who haven't read many of GHs books yet.I do agree this title is very different to other Heyers. It covers a longer time period, real people like Brummell have prominent roles and GH is showing off a
I finished the book yesterday and still rate it pretty highly. I like Judith and Worth as a couple. I do think there is humor in their interactions, and I think Judith has enough moments of knowing her own feelings to be a sympathetic character. I agree with Teresa, her fondness for her brother is a saving grace. Also, I found myself enjoying a lot of the historical detail. For example, Judith's scandalous drive to Brighton is filled with details about the route she took. It would be interesting to retrace her route. I wonder if any of those inns she stopped at or passed by are still there. I imagine there really was an inn called the Black Swan at Pease Pottage and a Chequers in Horley.
Sheila (in LA) wrote: "I finished the book yesterday and still rate it pretty highly. I like Judith and Worth as a couple. I do think there is humor in their interactions, and I think Judith has enough moments of knowing..."Yes, and both are still there, although the Chequers has been closed for a while and the area looks absolutely nothing like it would have done in 1811.
I imagine there really was an inn called the Black Swan at Pease Pottage and a Chequers in HorleyA few years ago my husband and I called in at the Black Swan hoping for a nice lunch on our way back from visiting our daughter in Sussex but there'd been some disaster in the kitchen and they weren't serving food - otherwise I could have told you what it's like inside. It's been closed for a couple of days, so I guess somebody's been "pinged"
I am glad to know the Black Swan is still in business! -- though the area has changed, which is not surprising. I wonder how she recreated the physical landscape--there's a lot of description of it, too! For example:"Past Red Hill the road ran in a series of switchbacks over Earlswood Common, and such magnificent bursts of country presented themselves to her gaze, that Miss Taverner almost lost sight of the fact that she was endeavouring to reach Horley before her brother in admiring the grandeur of the scene."
GH used historical and contemporary maps to show that the road remained, the topography is unchanged, the urbanisation of the area can be dated to indicate how different it all looks today. The road to Brighton is a great run through history!
I guess the landscape hadn't changed much by GH's time. My first post-qualifying job in 1970 was as librarian on the mobile library in that then very rural area - Earlswood was one of our stops. Gatwick airport was another - then it was a small airfield, not the huge international airport plus housing to service it that it is now. The A23, London to Brighton road, passing through Handcross was not the busy, M23 motorway it is now and Handcross and all the towns and villages it passed through are now pretty backwaters. Avery lovely part of the country still though.
Very interesting comments, thanks Susan and Barbara!
Really enjoyed this one! despite still being a relative newbie to Heyer (only a dozen books in, and none reread yet), I think a big part of my enjoyment was due to having read other books before this one and so instantly recognizing that Worth was worth putting up with. He's Heyer's kind of guy: super snobby and cutting while having a secret heart of gold. I think knowing that made me amused rather than annoyed at all of his very high-handed comments towards the siblings. He's definitely a dick, but since I understand & really appreciate Heyer's templates, I never doubted that he would come through, even though we're never provided access to his thought process. His character was pure pleasure to me.I wonder if contemporary readers of the novel were fooled and even thought that he had some slight chance of being the villain in the book. Or did they also already get Heyer? I think understanding the author's perspective on her characters could mean the difference between seeing the book as a mystery or as a slow-burning romance. For me, there was no mystery because Worth is like other Heyer heroes, and so of course the cousin is the actual villain. It was very enjoyable for me to see how Worth played his various secretly-altruistic schemes without letting the siblings in on who was actually behind all the murder attempts.
I also really enjoyed Judith. Maybe I'll see more of her type the more I read this wonderful author, but this is the first time I've seen a Heyer heroine who was this particular combination of canny & reactionary. I loved both her understanding of how to make her mark in society by having certain eccentricities and her complete lack of understanding of Worth's true nature. Also really appreciated her loathing of small talk bullshit and her disinterest in ever kowtowing to society or society's current heroes. My kind of person!
Brummell was a delight, what a great character to actually read, rather than read about. Scattergood had a fantastic name and a few good moments (although I wish there were more). Peregrine was a lot of fun!
Unlike a number of reviewers, I thought this was a very humorous book. The dialogue was so effortlessly witty, I was smiling constantly. "Sparkling dialogue" is the phrase that came to mind a lot - I was reminded of particular movies from the 30s & 40s directed by Howard Hawks and/or starring Carole Lombard and/or described as comedies of manner.
Carol said in her review that this would be a good starting point for someone new to Heyer, and despite what I said about my enjoyment of Worth coming from having read other Heyer books, I really agree. I enjoyed all of the in-depth details of the milieu, it felt like an introduction to Regency London. And it was genuinely edifying - it led me to many Wikipedia searches, what with all of the name dropping and rich descriptions of both settings and couture. That said, I loved that she streamlined those sorts of details in subsequent books because overall that's my preference when it comes to info drops. Also, can't say I loved the cockfighting scene because I'm a soft-hearted animal lover and the idea of cockfighting is sickening to me.
This is probably heresy to say, but I did slightly prefer this to These Old Shades & especially to Devil's Cub (really enjoyed both books though, and the heroines in both are fantastic). This one was just more of a pleasant experience - Shades & Cub alienated me at times with their gender dynamics. I think I read somewhere that it will be clear in the 4th book how this one connects to the prior three books.
I just happened to be re-reading my favorite parts of Regency Buck and stumbled across this group. It's so interesting to read all the comments and get such different viewpoints. Regency Buck is actually my favorite GH book!
Merry wrote: "I just happened to be re-reading my favorite parts of Regency Buck and stumbled across this group. It's so interesting to read all the comments and get such different viewpoints. Regency Buck is ac..."Welcome to our group, Merry!
Hi, Merry, and welcome. I just finished Regency Buck having had some trouble getting through it. I would suspect the reason is the same reason some people like it best: all that detail. I skim over most of it.
I do like the ending, where it's Judith's birthday so she is no longer his ward, and they finally express their feelings for each other.
and I like that her brother is clueless about how much he is in the way, wanting to talk about sailing! not the only brother to provide comedic relief in her books.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Merry wrote: "I just happened to be re-reading my favorite parts of Regency Buck and stumbled across this group. It's so interesting to read all the comments and get such different viewpoints. Rege..."Thank you! :-)
Jackie wrote: "Hi, Merry, and welcome. I just finished Regency Buck having had some trouble getting through it. I would suspect the reason is the same reason some people like it best: all that detail. I skim ove..."
Thanks, Jackie! When I first read the book, I really enjoyed the fireworks between Worth and Judith and I was really impressed by the way GH was able to write so well from the perspective of Judith, a young woman who is intelligent, but lacking in life experience. Reading this book recalls memories of what it was like when I was 20 and struggling a bit to understand the world and to understand men, and to figure myself out. But even though I lived through that, I don't think I would be able to write a book from that perspective as well as GH did. Years later, when I started rereading the book, I found I had a better understanding of, and consequently more sympathy for, Worth's character. Have you ever loved someone, but not been able to communicate that to them, at least not in a way that they could understand? I could go on and on about all the things I like about this book, but in short, maybe one of the main reasons I am able to enjoy Regency Buck is that I think the main characters are interesting people, and each has aspects that I can relate to or sympathize with. It's really hard to like a book when you dislike or can't relate to the main characters.
I don't remember having a lot of problem with too much detail. It surprised me that several posts here mentioned something about GH "showing off" her historical knowledge. I never have thought about it that way. To me she just seems really interested in it, and like a geek on any subject, gets really into it. I knew very little about the Regency period before reading Heyer, so I suppose I've found the details informative on the first read, and when I reread I just gloss over the less interesting bits and savor my favorite parts! :-)
Very well said Merry!!
Hi Merry, I tend to agree with a lot of what you’ve said. Lovely comments.
As for the historical detail, I think those of who think she rather ‘over-egged the pudding’ in this, her first Regency, are always impressed by her research, but notice that in later books, the historical detail supports the story rather than overwhelming it.
Glad you’re enjoying Georgette! Lots of great discussions ahead!
As the others stated, Welcome Merry ! I so enjoy reading points of view from other GH fans. Regency Buck was an early favorite of mine; Judith and Perrie complimented each other well, though I especially like the comic relief of Perrie (example, once he found his sea legs). I appreciated Worth's efforts, guiding his two wards while keeping most of his work hidden beneath his Corinthian mien. Thank you for your insight, Merry.
Merry wrote: "Jackie wrote: "Hi, Merry, and welcome. I just finished Regency Buck having had some trouble getting through it. I would suspect the reason is the same reason some people like it best: all that det..."
Hi and welcome Merry.
The characters didn’t appeal to me so much in this book, but I’ve enjoyed reading your comments and Mark’s and getting a whole other perspective on it. It’s one thing I really like about these discussions!
Thank you all for the warm welcome! :-)
