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Christus Vincit
Christus Vincit, July 2021
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Where has "only the Latin Mass [been] celebrated, leaving the people without the vernacular mass"? The MP doesn't say that is the case, I doubt it is anywhere.
Because of the MP, though, many people who want to attend the traditional Latin Mass no longer can. I'm grateful my own TLM parish will be unaffected ... at least while our bishop allows it.
The bad press for Pope Francis' MP is well deserved.
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The MP doesn't say that is the case, I doubt it is anywhere.
I am translating from a Spanish Catholic article dedicated to the MP:
"It points out that the indications on how to proceed in the dioceses are marked by two principles. In the first place, "to provide for the good of those who are rooted in the previous form of celebration and need time to return to the Roman rite promulgated by Saints Paul VI and John Paul II." And secondly, "to interrupt the erection of new personal parishes, linked more to the desire and will of individual priests than to the real need of the‘ holy people of God ’....
In many dioceses there are groups, in some cases many, that celebrate with the 1962 missal. The third article focuses on these cases and establishes six points to be taken into account by the bishops:
- Ensure that such groups "do not exclude the validity and legitimacy of the liturgical reform, of the dictates of the Second Vatican Council and of the Magisterium of the Supreme Pontiffs."
- Indicate one or more places where the faithful adhered to these groups "can gather for the Eucharistic celebration (but not in parish churches and without erecting new personal parishes)"
- Establish in the indicated place “the days on which Eucharistic celebrations are allowed with the use of the Roman Missal promulgated by Saint John XXIII in 1962. In these celebrations the readings must be proclaimed in the vernacular, using translations of Sacred Scripture for use. liturgical, approved by the respective Episcopal Conferences ”.
- Appoint a priest who, as the bishop's delegate, is in charge of the celebrations and the pastoral care of said groups of the faithful.
- The bishop will evaluate whether or not he will maintain the personal parishes canonically erected for the benefit of these faithful and "will make an adequate evaluation of their real usefulness for spiritual growth."
I believe this is very reasonable. And it mentions parishes where the Mass is never celebrated in the vernacular.
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A prof in a church history course made the wise comment that when you lo..."
Jill wrote: "Most of the sex abuse now coming to light occurred many years ago; the Church is finally becoming more forthright about it.
A prof in a church history course made the wise comment that when you lo..."
Yes, most of the sexual abuse coming to light now seems to have occurred in the 70s and 80s. There are always abusers and they are attracted to the places where they have ready access to victims. What changed? Perhaps it was coincidental. Perhaps it was always this bad and we just didn't know.
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I would be interested in understanding where it has happened that only the TLM was celebrated. No where in the United States, I am fairly sure. The summary of the Moto Proprio I have read does more than that and can be fairly said to suppress the TLM. If you're reading says that's unjust, then I guess I need to read it for myself.
When I was a boy, my dad took my brother and me to a high Mass that was being celebrated in a city several hours away. We were heading on a fishing trip and it was a short diversion, requiring only that we leave earlier for our trip. It was a thing of beauty that he knew was passing and he wanted us to see it before it was gone.
I am sorry for the thing that i am going to write but i can not stand it more. At the beggining i did not want to participate in This discussion because i had not been able to Read the Monsignor's Athanasius Book but i can not Accept the Jill comment's about Luther. It is curious that the Jill's opinions are very close to the anticatholic author Arturo Pérez Reverte, that he thinks something very close to Jill singing the goodness of the bad called Reformation and the Ilustration. The first thing It is totally false that the Reformation started with Luther before that Luther appeared a lot of catholics wanted to reform the Catholic Church the Pope Julius II called to the council of Letran unfortunatelly he was not listened and his advices were unlistened. Second Luther did not do anything especial all his work was made by other heretics Wycliffe in England, Mathias Janov, John Milic and Jan Hus in Cezch República and It was continued by Jan Ziska, and Procopius. Luther that It was considered the creator of the modern Germán but certainly the German chancellors were the creators of the modern German. Jill said that we had to listen certainly he was listened and he had the several diets Worms, Spira, Torgau and Regensburg. We must trust in a man that he betrayed his Friends Carlstatdt, he betrayed the German people we remind that he said that we had to kill as mad dog, an antijew preacher, a man Who manipulated the writings, a man Who eliminated the cult to the Saints, he finished the veneration of the Saint Virgin Mary, a man Who Will eliminate the majority of the sacraments, a man Who defended the slavery a man Who defended a bigamy, disloyalty with his natural Lord the Emperor Charles V a spanish enemy a man Who changed the writings to defend the TRADE of black people saying that they were descendants of Cam. A man Who was the main responsable of the German division and the Europe division. His writings had not anything new except hate. He considered the Pope the antichrist. He finished with the good actions because he was not aware to do them. Other heretic as him made the best definition of him "Luther liar to say amén to everything" the only that we keep of the protestantism It was not of him. It was of his disciple Melangthon. And i am sorry but before that i belonged a Church of This man i would rather to have a terrible death. To liberalize the Church and Accept the blackmail of the Catholic Germán Church the only Effect would provoke It would be to lose the few believers. The Catholic Church It is not good but the reformed Church are worst we look the case of the anglican Church. To This i say One Word NO. About the discussion about the traditional Mass i recommend the Brian Moore's novel "Catholics" It is true that This man Lost his faith but It is really Interesting that he wrote.
John wrote: "I would be interested in understanding where it has happened that only the TLM was celebrated. No where in the United States, I am fairly sure."It is happening in parishes where the Petrine fathers (SSPX) are the administrators. We have one parish in Irving, TX, which (I'm told, though I have yet to visit) is exclusively TLM, and the big surprise is that most of the parishioners are young families--too young to have grown up with the Latin rite. I believe they see a reverence and solemnity that is lacking in their home parishes, and want their children to experience that. I remember growing up with a natural awe of that atmosphere, and my parents didn't need to tell us to hush, or stop bothering each other, or bring cheerios in a baggie to keep us quiet, all things quite common in most parishes, unless there is a "cry room" where nobody else could hear our unruly children. And in general young parents now lack the support system from church and culture that our parents could count on, a system which was in rapid decline when I was a young parent, and is rarely found now, but seems to be honored by our young devout families of the SSPX parishes. I wonder if the Vatican saw a thread in this development....
Fonch wrote: "I am sorry for the thing that i am going to write but i can not stand it more. At the beggining i did not want to participate in This discussion because i had not been able to Read the Monsignor's ..."Thank you my friend Fonch for reacting to statements that perturbed me as well about Martin Luther which shows lack of historical knowledge about the heretic.
Bishop Schneider is convincing in his chapter “Loss of the Supernatural” that the Western world sank beginning in Renaissance humanism, through Martin Luther, and radically with the French Revolution. This was a move, as Archbishop Fulton Sheen described from brotherhood with Christ to comradeship with anti-Christ. To consider nature and temporal reality as God is paganism and pantheism. (p. 107)
Bishop Schneider is only a late voice in showing Luther for what he was. There were many who showed as, for example MacCafrey, James Msgr. (1875-1931) “History of the Catholic Church from the Renaissance to the French Revolution: Volume 1” how “Luther was an ideal demagogue to head a semi-religious, semi-social revolt.” (p. 15)
There are many voices closer to our time, Belloc, Chesterton who pointed out how Luther brought wars and disasters particularly on peasantry in Franconia, Swabia, Thuringia in 1524-1525.
Thanks Galicius i cheer up that somebody support my speech. I get sad that nobody reply the Jill's opinion. Only there is One thing, which i disagree Luther is not a consequence of the Reformation. He is a wrong reply against the neopaganism and the corruption of manners of the Renassaince despite Luther was a Reuchlin's disciple Luther hardly had supports between the humanists only Ulrich Von Hutten, Sickering and his disciple Philip Melanchton (he is more brilliant than the own Luther) indeed the humanists are his main enemies i think in Erasmus that at the beggining thinking that he Will reform the Catholic Church, but he discovers his really intenctions he condemned, we have the case of Agrícola, or Johannes Murner the Last a franciscan very critic with Luther. Luther we must look him as a reaction against the Middle Age scholasticism an enemy of the tradition. Somebody as in the case of Henry VIII that is lead by the tradition. Generally Belloc and Chesterton we look on the Next reading of Catholic Book Club "Characters of the Reformation" usually are more critics with Calvin than Luther although in his struggles to Prusia we can look a strike against the lutheranism. If we Accept the Lutheranism would have meant the loss of the rligiousity much before than the Westphalia treatment of peace, less freedom of the subject against the state and strongest Bond with the nationalism much more that in our time. It would not be good for the world.
I do not say but my admired Juan Manuel de Prada is a Big enemy of the Lutheranism and Luther. It is a pity that we could not Read in America. His Last book "Una biblioteca en el Oasis" would sound in our language a library in the Oasis is really Interesting because Juan Manuel de Prada have written 60 reviews of Christian Books some of them Might be excellent choices for the Catholic Book Club. My review is too long but It is worthy to eye on i dedicated to the Catholic Book Club.
Echar un vistazo a este libro en Goodreads: Una biblioteca en el oasis https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5...
Fonch, I think you're right about everything you've written! I don't have the energy or desire to engage all the time ... Manuel (and Madeleine), what John and I were both responding to was the claim that some people don't have access to mass in the vernacular (not that some parishes have mass in the traditional Latin rite only). I'm aware of zero cases where anyone who wants mass in the vernacular can't have it.
It's ironic -- there are too few TLMs for the demand, and some people are losing access to the TLM now due to the MP. Fortunately many bishops are allowing TLMs in their dioceses to continue, some citing Canon 87.
We attend the TLM in Irving, Texas at Mater Dei. So many young people, lots of children. It's the only TLM in the diocese of Dallas. We drive 30 to 45 minutes to get there; many drive an hour or more.
Cardinal Burke wrote an analysis of the MP that is worth reading. He's an expert in canon law.
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Kristi said: "We attend the TLM in Irving, Texas at Mater Dei. So many young people, lots of children. It's the only TLM in the diocese of Dallas. We drive 30 to 45 minutes to get there; many drive an hour or more." You must not live far from me, Kristi. I'm in St. Ann Parish in Coppell, and we just had a turnover in our priests. In one of our ministries, before MP, we had some discussion about asking our new priests if we could have a TLM, even once a month, at our parish. I was surprised that most at the table would like to see that happen. I have been wanting to visit Mater Dei, but we (being elderly) have been doing Mass at Our Lady of the Living Room Laptop, and just now seeing our church open up. I saw Cardinal Burke's article, but haven't managed to read it yet.
Kristi, do you expect that Mater Dei will be bursting at the seams?I would not be surprised!
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It is happening in parishes where the ..."
Yes, I am aware that SSPX parishes only celebrate the TLM, but they are still not fully regularized in the Church, are they? There are also FSSP parishes in full communion with the Church. But I am not aware of any situation where there is not another parish within easy reach. It may be that the growing attraction of the FSSP and other TLM parishes is causing angst to the old "Spirit of Vatican II" priests, bishops and cardinals, but I'm not aware of any disunity other than their own angst that their way is being rejected.
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That speaks very poorly of Pope Francis, to my mind at least, if that is true. It is a very big hammer for such a local issue. And he continues to ignore the much greater efforts at schism of the German Bishops. Besides, in the past he has said he may be remembered as the Pope of schism or that he is not afraid of schism.
Being sincere although i have not gone ever an any traditional Mass. I do not like the changes and i agree with John that Francis should take more seriously. In my opinion the liberal theologists and priests give more problems than the traditional or conservativa priests with all i am going to give an advice that i receive in a preach in the Mass two weeks ago. We think that we must pray for the Pope. He does bad he Will have to answer the own God for This reason we pray for the Pope Francis.
Madeleine, it doesn't surprise me that St. Ann has parishioners who want the TLM. I often meet people in Plano, Wylie, etc. (near where we are in NE Richardson) who want the TLM. Mater Dei has grown a lot since the lock down was lifted last year. We're out of town now, and where we attend the TLM when visiting new york has added a 2nd Sunday mass since we were last here pre-Covid.
Kristi, I am not surprised at all. I think the Church will thrive if they honor the traditions that have glorified God for centuries, and the Latin rite is part of those traditions. I do miss it, and miss it especially for my fallen-away kids who never knew it. There is definitely room for both liturgies, especially when we're seeing the Pope make room for the pachamamas and prays with muslims.
Madeleine wrote: "Kristi, I am not surprised at all. I think the Church will thrive if they honor the traditions that have glorified God for centuries, and the Latin rite is part of those traditions. I do miss it, a..."Well said, Madeleine, thank you.
Madeleine, I'm sorry about your children; it's a tragedy how many fall away -- my husband and his siblings all left the Church. They were never given the true faith. He came back when he found the TLM. I prayed a Memorare for your children to return to beautiful Mother Church. God bless you.
Thank you, Kristi! I appreciate all prayers--call me one of St. Monica's biggest fans. I know my family situation isn't unique, because it's a frequent topic of discussion in our ministry meetings. St. Ann's has had an excellent religious ed program, and I think it's boosted by their mission outreach (had my kids been in such a program I would for sure have sent them to work with the missions)--and we have an impressive number of vocations to the priesthood. One of whom is our new pastor!Also sad is what the social justice left has done to my sister and other extended family--they have left the church and treat the rest of us as unenlightened haters and homophobes. Another common theme--the devil loves messing with families!
It is so sad. As mentioned so many times is Christus Vincit families are the foundation of Christian civilization, that is why the devil wants to destroy them so much.
I remember very vividly opening my high school Civics textbook and the very first sentence:"The family is the basic unit of civilization."
Which is why the destruction of the traditional family and family values are high up on the Marxist agenda.
I'm uncomfortable with the Peter Julian Eymard quotes that make it sound like the Eucharistic Jesus protects us from the wrath of God. Jesus is God, undivided, always acting in unconditional love.
The Council of Trent's formulations may be true, but that doesn't mean the way they're expressed are "suitable" or even comprehensible for our times. Different threats/issues. If the Church had dialogued with Martin Luther and taken his concerns seriously, everyone would have been reformed.