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Hard Times
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Hard Times > Book 1 Chp. 6

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message 1: by Tristram (last edited Jun 26, 2021 03:40AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Tristram Shandy | 5005 comments Mod
Dear Fellow Curiosities,

This week we are only dealing with one single chapter, which is called “Sleary’s Horsemanship“ and which tells us more about the fate of Sissy Jupe as well as about the characters of Mr. Gradgrind and his friend Bounderby.

When those two practical gentlemen accompany Sissy to the Pegasus’s Arms, where Mr. Jupe and the other carneys lodge, the girl immediately goes upstairs to fetch her father. Very soon, however, she finds out that neither her father nor his dog Merrylegs are in, and, before Gradgrind and Bounderby can detain her, she darts outside to see whether her father is at the Booth. Immediately afterwards, two other members of the company enter, one Mr. E.W.B. Childers and his sidekick, a squat man by the name of Kidderminster, who, although he normally acts as a Cupid, has a rather gruff voice. When Mr. Bounderby tries to bully those two men, they react in a very hostile way, e.g. like this:

”‘You see, my friend,’ Mr. Bounderby put in, ‘we are the kind of people who know the value of time, and you are the kind of people who don’t know the value of time.’
‘I have not,’ retorted Mr. Childers, after surveying him from head to foot, ‘the honour of knowing you,—but if you mean that you can make more money of your time than I can of mine, I should judge from your appearance, that you are about right.’
‘And when you have made it, you can keep it too, I should think,’ said Cupid.”


Or like this:

”‘Nine oils, Merrylegs, missing tips, garters, banners, and Ponging, eh!’ ejaculated Bounderby, with his laugh of laughs. ‘Queer sort of company, too, for a man who has raised himself!’
‘Lower yourself, then,’ retorted Cupid. ‘Oh Lord! if you’ve raised yourself so high as all that comes to, let yourself down a bit.’”


While I certainly enjoyed seeing Mr. Bounderby taken down a peg or two, I could not help wondering that he hardly resists the fresh replies he is given by the two men, and that made me come to the conclusion that, after all, Mr. Bounderby might not be half as tough as he makes himself out to be but that he is some kind of all-hat-and-no-cattle type of person who will knuckle under headwind. It was also quite funny to see how difficult it was for Gradgind and Bounderby to understand the theatrical jargon used by Childers and Kidderminster, and how annoyed they are with it. By the way, Dickens’s friend Forster later denied that the author spent hours backstage listening to carneys’ talk in order to pick up their slang for the sake of enriching the Sleary chapters. I’d have thought, however, that this would be exactly something Dickens might do.

Childers tells the two men that since Sissy’s father is no longer good at his performances, he has decided to make off and that by having his daughter enter Mr. Gradgrind’s school Mr. Jupe has thought to have provided for her. This information is taken up by Mr. Bounderby as an opportunity to rail against parents like Mr. Jupe and to denigrate his own mother especially for having left him behind with his gin-addicted grandmother, but he is aptly put down by Mr. Childers again.

By and by, the other members of the company have arrived, and with them their leader, Mr. Sleary, and the narrator expresses his sympathy for them in the following lines:

”Yet there was a remarkable gentleness and childishness about these people, a special inaptitude for any kind of sharp practice, and an untiring readiness to help and pity one another, deserving often of as much respect, and always of as much generous construction, as the every-day virtues of any class of people in the world.“

Mr. Gradgrind, who – as we may remember – was actually determined to tell Mr. Jupe that his daughter could no longer attend his school because of the allegedly unwholesome influence she is – in his eyes, and those of his friend Bounderby – exerting over the other pupils, now seems to waver in his decision, which can be seen as a sign that, in his heart of hearts, he is not all that bad. He confers on this point with Mr. Bounderby, who advises him to stick to his initial purpose, and in the end, the schoolmaster prevails – under the condition that Sissy will never have anything to do with her old friends anymore. Mr. Bounderby finally also agrees to have Sissy Jupe stay at his own home, but when he begins to tell the young girl, who has returned without having found her father meanwhile, in a very blunt manner that her father has deserted her, he incurs the ill-will of everyone around so that even Mr. Sleary has to warn him that his quick-tempered friends are very close to throwing him out of the window.

Sissy is finally convinced to leave her old life behind but she still insists on keeping the bottle of nine oils in case her father might come back one day. Not really remembering the plot anymore, I am asking myself as keenly as she if that will ever happen.

All in all, I must say that I found it rather unrealistic that Mr. Jupe would leave his daughter behind just because he is apparently growing too old for his job. After all, he could not know for sure whether his daughter would be kept at the school and whether there would be somebody to put her up. How do you see it?


message 2: by Peter (last edited Jun 26, 2021 08:43AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Peter | 3568 comments Mod
Tristram wrote: "Dear Fellow Curiosities,

This week we are only dealing with one single chapter, which is called “Sleary’s Horsemanship“ and which tells us more about the fate of Sissy Jupe as well as about the ch..."


Tristram

You ask a very difficult question. The decisions of parents are often impossibly difficult. Did Mr Jupe think it best that to give Sissy the chance to gain an education and perhaps a better life than the circus would offer was worth it for him to leave? I doubt if Mr Jupe knew the details of what the school Sissy was to attend were.

But how does one abandon a child? I don’t know. How often does the scenario of Sophie’s Choice play out in real time? Sadly, I think more often than we know. I think of all the refugee camps that exist in the world today and shutter.

No doubt many Curiosities may be aware of the recent revelations in the media of what occurred in Canada’s residential schools for far too long. While the situation is different from what happened between Sissy and her father, the shock of what happened to thousands of indigenous children has shook Canada to its very core.

Every child is the future. The decisions as to how we create the future partially resides in what decisions we make today.


message 3: by Mary Lou (last edited Jun 26, 2021 08:12AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Mary Lou | 2701 comments Oh, dear.... now I have to go and search the Canadian news. I find I'm so much more serene when I avoid current events. But, sadly, the themes in Dickens novels do have a way of recurring over time, don't they?

Funny you mentioned "Sophie's Choice", Peter, as that sprung to mind as I was reading, also.

I never noticed it before, but we have two characters whose names contain the word "child". Was that intentional? And, if so, perhaps we need to be aware of Childers and M'Choakumchild going forward, noticing any similarities or (more likely) differences between the two. Or is it just coincidence?

Poor Sissy. I'm truly surprised she made the decision to go with Gradgrind and not stay with people she knew in a familiar setting, especially after her first day at school. Like little Nell, she obviously has a lot of fortitude, despite her tears. What are her motives? Is she doing this just because she thinks it's what her father wanted, or does she, at her tender age, realize that there's little future in a circus life, and she knows the importance of an education if she wants more out of life?

Tristram - you mentioned that you'd lost track of the plot. Based on these early chapters, I'm not sure we know what the plot is yet. Who is our protagonist? Sissy? Louisa? All I feel sure of is that Bounderby will be central to the story as we go on. I have to say, as annoying characters go, I still prefer him to Skimpole. Bounderby is a blowhard (and an old lecher!), but I don't think he's manipulative and duplicitous. Time will tell.


message 4: by Julie (new)

Julie Kelleher | 1525 comments Peter wrote: "You ask a very difficult question. The decisions of parents are often impossibly difficult. Did Mr Jupe think it best that to give Sissy the chance to gain an education and perhaps a better life than the circus would offer was worth it for him to leave?


I find it very believable.

I know of a family who gave up a child so the child would have what the family saw as a better shot. There's not much sadder than that, but it still happens.

It's easy to forget what a rough world this is. Dickens knew but he somehow makes it palatable. Why aren't we more horrified about what is happening to Sissy here, not to mention to her father. What's going to happen to him?


message 5: by [deleted user] (new)

Mary Lou wrote: "Oh, dear.... now I have to go and search the Canadian news. I find I'm so much more serene when I avoid current events. But, sadly, the themes in Dickens novels do have a way of recurring over time..."

I see I'm not the only one comparing Sissy to Little Nell, although for me the thought occurred mostly because Sissy was so ready to smooth over her father's decision to leave her when things got difficult, just like Little Nell was so ready to smooth over her grandfather's decisions (and didn't the grandfather want to run away and leave her too? I don't remember).

I wondered at how ready she was to leave her friends and the people she has known for all of her life behind at such a moment, to go with the likes of Gradgrind and Bounderby. On the other hand, life in the circus was so, so hard, and what her father did was basically a direct result of how life there worked - so perhaps she wanted to grab this chance of a life without these people now she had it, because if her father left her like that, Sleary and the others could do the same at any given moment. And at the other moment she might not have a chance to land on her feet. Also, she now got the chance to not end up in a position like her father was in, to not have to do the same to her own children later. I do hope it was the right choice though.


message 6: by Alissa (last edited Jun 27, 2021 05:28PM) (new)

Alissa | 317 comments Poor Sissy. I didn't expect her life to change so drastically. Yet, it seemed like a necessary twist to get the plot going. Gradgrind was just about to dismiss her from the school, but the father's disappearance motivated him to take her in. I like that Gradgrind had the heart to take her in. It made him more human.

Is Sissy really going to live with Bounderby? Yuck! Somehow I missed that awful detail. I like Gradgrind's house better. He has an awesome house (in my opinion) with dumbwaiters and interesting rock collections. Even a boarding school would be better than Bounderby's.

I liked Mr. Sleary's speech at the end, wishing Sissy well in her new life, while reminding her to never look down on where she came from. I thought that was a good way to send her off and a good way to end the chapter.

I agree that Sissy excused her father's motives a little too fast to be believable, but it sounds like they had a good relationship, and the father wanted a better life for her. I wonder if Sissy and her father will ever reunite?


message 7: by Julie (new)

Julie Kelleher | 1525 comments Jantine wrote: "Mary Lou wrote: "Oh, dear.... now I have to go and search the Canadian news. I find I'm so much more serene when I avoid current events. But, sadly, the themes in Dickens novels do have a way of recurring over time..."

I see I'm not the only one comparing Sissy to Little Nell


Yes, and having read Old Curiosity Shop,, I am more inclined to be sympathetic to Mr. Jupe. Bounderby is sarcastic:

‘Good!’ interrupted Mr. Bounderby. ‘This is good, Gradgrind! A man so fond of his daughter, that he runs away from her! This is devilish good! Ha! ha!

But I think Bounderby criticizing him is itself a reason we should be inclined to think well of Mr. Jupe, and after seeing what Little Nell went through making herself responsible for her elders, it makes more sense that Mr. Jupe would see signs that his daughter could be well established, and cut and run.

Still very sad. Somehow this part of the story is hitting me harder now than it has before.


Tristram Shandy | 5005 comments Mod
Julie wrote: "not to mention to her father. What's going to happen to him?"

I would not be too surprised to find that Sissy's father has completely walked out of the story for good, although frankly speaking, this would be untypical of Dickens and his way of not losing track of any of his characters. That being said, however, from what we have read so far, I would say that Hard Times is in some ways a novel quite un-Dickensian.


Tristram Shandy | 5005 comments Mod
Mary Lou wrote: "I never noticed it before, but we have two characters whose names contain the word "child". Was that intentional? And, if so, perhaps we need to be aware of Childers and M'Choakumchild going forward, noticing any similarities or (more likely) differences between the two. Or is it just coincidence? "

Now you are saying it, I have also come to see the "child" in Childers. And this is quite an anarchic child to boot, isn't it? One that is not easily choked and put down but will have his say and not allow himself to be put down by Mr. Bounderby but insist on talking back and thereby gives him some beef to chew on. Three cheers for Childers then!


Tristram Shandy | 5005 comments Mod
Jantine wrote: "Mary Lou wrote: "On the other hand, life in the circus was so, so hard, and what her father did was basically a direct result of how life there worked - so perhaps she wanted to grab this chance of a life without these people now she had it, because if her father left her like that, Sleary and the others could do the same at any given moment."

Circus life is indeed hard, despite the illusion of levity, fun and larks that the circus people work so hard on to impart to their audience. Her father's example makes it very obvious to Sissy that once you have reached a certain age in that profession, the way is downhill. Apart from that, Sleary and his company - for all their kindness and the genuine pity they take on her - leave no doubt as to that she should have been trained earlier if she really wanted to make a decent living out of circus life, and so she senses that after all, she will probably be more of a burden than a help to the cirucs company. This may also be a reason why she decides to take up Mr. Gradgrind's ungraciously-proferred offer.


Tristram Shandy | 5005 comments Mod
Tristram wrote: "Mr. Bounderby finally also agrees to have Sissy Jupe stay at his own home, "

Alissa,

You are right: I think I made a mistake there because after all, from what I gathered while reading the story, Sissy was supposed to stay at the Gradgrind's place and be brought up alongside the Gradgrind children, which is much better for her. I just got that mixed up when writing the recap and thank you, for pointing it out.


message 12: by Alissa (new)

Alissa | 317 comments Tristram wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Mr. Bounderby finally also agrees to have Sissy Jupe stay at his own home..."

Tristram,

Thanks for confirming that Sissy is staying with Gradgrind. I agree, it is much better for her. :-) I hope she'll befriend the children, especially Louisa, who was curious about the circus.


Tristram Shandy | 5005 comments Mod
I am afraid she will not have a very happy time at Stone Lodge, either, because Mr. Gradgrind already starts by demanding her to forget about everything connected with her previous life, which is not a good thing to start on. Nevertheless, she is better off with him than with Mr. Bounderby, whose attitude towards Louisa is definitely unsettling and creepy.


message 14: by Kim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kim | 6417 comments Mod
Letter to Mark Lemon (I don't know who that is):

Tavistock House
Monday Twentieth February 1854

My dear Mark,

Will you note down and send me any slang terms among tumblers and circus-people, that you can call to mind? I have noted down some—I want them in my new story—but it is very probable that you will recall several which I have not got.

Ever affectionately,

CD



message 15: by Kim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kim | 6417 comments Mod


"'This Is a Very Obtrusive Lad!' Said Mr. Gradgrind"

Part I, Chapter 6

Harry French

Commentary:

"Plate No. 4, depicting the meeting of Gradgrind, Bounderby, Childers, and Kidderminster at the Pegasus's Arms, visually integrates these disparate plot-lines, following up on Gradgrind's dragging his children away from the circus in Plate 3. Thematically, the plate connects the made-up, theatrical world of the circus performers with the false front of The Bully of Humility, the "self-made man" Bounderby. (The circus lingo in which Childers and Kidderminster express their mutual contempt for Bounderby Dickens borrowed from his friend Mark Lemon, editor of Punch.)

We might expect Dickens, something of a Capitalist himself by 1854 as a major stakeholder in the weekly magazine Household Words, to side with Bounderby and Gradgrind. However, since the theatre was always in his blood, it should come as no surprise that he sides instead with Childers, who sees through Bounderby's imposture. The dwarf Kidderminster's artifice as Cupid (for he is no child at all) is harmless entertainment for the masses; in contrast, Bounderby's puffery about his ditch-water origins is part of his technique for enslaving his workers, keeping their demands in line with his spartan childhood. Both antagonists in the argument are motivated by pecuniary considerations, of course."


message 16: by Kim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kim | 6417 comments Mod


"Father Must Have Gone Down to the Booth, Sir"

Part I, Chapter 6

C.S. Reinhart

American Household Edition 1870

Commentary:

"With Bounderby and Gradgrind, we have followed Sissy Jupe up the dimly-lit, narrow staircase to her room in The Pegasus's Arms, but Signor Jupe is out. Beside Sissy on the floor is the open trunk which has produced the look of "terror" on her face and the anguished gesture. Above the bed hangs a peculiar object which reference to the text reveals to be Signor Jupe's "white night-cap, embellished with two peacock's feathers and a pigtail bolt upright" (Ch. 6) which he uses in performance and apparently in real life.

Bounderby, the Bully of Humility, has his back towards us, so that his only salient feature is his unkempt hair. Gradgrind's misshapen, bald skull (reminiscent of the skulls of the precursors of homo erectus), bristling eyebrows, and hooked nose impart a bird-like quality in plate 3 and there is, as yet, no softening sign of compassion for the girl whose father has abandoned her in this public-house rented room exhibiting the minimum essentials of three chairs and a bed. Positioned strategically between the adults on the left and the child on the right is the "battered and mangy old hair trunk" which once contained a portion of the clown's wardrobe. He has abandoned it, too, and is travelling light, so that the empty trunk becomes an objective correlative for Sissy herself."


message 17: by Kim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kim | 6417 comments Mod
I seldom like illustrations by Sol Eytinge Jr. this one is no different:



"The Horse-Riding Party"

Part I, Chapter 6

Sol Eytinge

Commentary:

In his study of the three principal "horse-riders," Eytinge has synthesised two different textual descriptions in chapter 6, "Sleary's Horsemanship," in that he depicts the asthmatic Sleary, the circus-master, with his two star performers, E. W. B. Childers and the diminutive Master Kidderminster, the circus company's Cupid in its equestrian performances, both unfortunately (to match the facing page) in civilian clothing at the Pegasus's Arms, rather than in their more picturesque professional attire.


message 18: by Kim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kim | 6417 comments Mod


Text Illustrated:

The women sadly bestirred themselves to get the clothes together—it was soon done, for they were not many—and to pack them in a basket which had often travelled with them. Sissy sat all the time upon the ground, still sobbing, and covering her eyes. Mr. Gradgrind and his friend Bounderby stood near the door, ready to take her away. Mr. Sleary stood in the middle of the room, with the male members of the company about him, exactly as he would have stood in the centre of the ring during his daughter Josephine’s performance. He wanted nothing but his whip.

The basket packed in silence, they brought her bonnet to her, and smoothed her disordered hair, and put it on. Then they pressed about her, and bent over her in very natural attitudes, kissing and embracing her: and brought the children to take leave of her; and were a tender-hearted, simple, foolish set of women altogether.

‘Now, Jupe,’ said Mr. Gradgrind. ‘If you are quite determined, come!’

But she had to take her farewell of the male part of the company yet, and every one of them had to unfold his arms (for they all assumed the professional attitude when they found themselves near Sleary), and give her a parting kiss—Master Kidderminster excepted, in whose young nature there was an original flavour of the misanthrope, who was also known to have harboured matrimonial views, and who moodily withdrew. Mr. Sleary was reserved until the last. Opening his arms wide he took her by both her hands, and would have sprung her up and down, after the riding-master manner of congratulating young ladies on their dismounting from a rapid act; but there was no rebound in Sissy, and she only stood before him crying.


One of these days I'll do a search to see if I can find out who the artist is, I just haven't gotten around to it yet.


message 19: by Kim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kim | 6417 comments Mod
Then there is Kyd:



Mr. Sleary


message 20: by Kim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kim | 6417 comments Mod


E. W. B. Childers


message 21: by Kim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kim | 6417 comments Mod


Mr. Sleary again slightly different, I don't know, why of course Kyd often confuses me.


message 22: by Kim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kim | 6417 comments Mod


Sissy


message 23: by Kim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kim | 6417 comments Mod
Here's another illustration of the town of Preston, the town that was the inspiration for Coketown in Hard Times. At least that's what they say:



Engraving c.1862 from The Illustrated London News detailing the construction of Moor Park – Preston was said to be the inspiration for Dickens ‘Hard Times’


message 24: by Kim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kim | 6417 comments Mod
Tristram wrote: "Circus life is indeed hard, despite the illusion of levity, fun and larks that the circus people work so hard on to impart to their audience. "

Circus life must have been hard, and dangerous for that matter since Sleary's daughter Josephine, "made a will at 12, which she always carried about with her, expressive of her dying desire to be drawn to the grave by the two piebald ponies."


message 25: by Kim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kim | 6417 comments Mod
There are a lot of horses in this book, the description of the horse at the school, the horse wallpaper, Josephine being killed by the ponies, the Pegasus is named after a horse, an odd horse, but still a horse, and Bounderby is certainly a horse, part of one anyway.


Peter | 3568 comments Mod
Kim wrote: "Letter to Mark Lemon (I don't know who that is):

Tavistock House
Monday Twentieth February 1854

My dear Mark,

Will you note down and send me any slang terms among tumblers and circus-people, ..."


Kim

What a great letter. While short, it does give us a peek at Dickens’s research.

Mark Lemon was a co-founder of the famous Punch magazine, a prolific writer, and all-round good chap. Dickens asked Lemon to “assist” Catherine Dickens when Charles was leaving her. Lemon was so kind and caring to Catherine it caused a rift between Dickens and himself.


Peter | 3568 comments Mod
Kim wrote: "There are a lot of horses in this book, the description of the horse at the school, the horse wallpaper, Josephine being killed by the ponies, the Pegasus is named after a horse, an odd horse, but ..."

Ah Kim, even on your vacation you find time for the illustrations and giving us a visual image of what Bounderby probably looks like. ;-)

Enjoy your holiday.


message 28: by Kim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kim | 6417 comments Mod
Thanks Peter, but for now we are just spending most of our time at our campground along the river about 30-40 minutes away from home. We've been spending about five days there, two days at home a week. The two days is when I get to catch up here because we don't have internet at our campground. September is our big trip, the Bronner's Christmas Wonderland trip, that's when you and Tristram will have to fill in for me the most, there is no way I will be able to keep my mind focused on the club when I'm standing in a store as big as 5 1/2 football fields filled with Christmas things. :-)


Peter | 3568 comments Mod
Kim wrote: "Thanks Peter, but for now we are just spending most of our time at our campground along the river about 30-40 minutes away from home. We've been spending about five days there, two days at home a w..."

Kim

Consider an early Christmas present to you my coverage of your chapters in September. If I close my eyes and picture you in Bonners I am soon grinning ear to ear. ;-)


message 30: by Tristram (last edited Jul 07, 2021 02:00AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Tristram Shandy | 5005 comments Mod
Kim wrote: "Letter to Mark Lemon (I don't know who that is):

Tavistock House
Monday Twentieth February 1854

My dear Mark,

Will you note down and send me any slang terms among tumblers and circus-people, ..."


What a pity for Dickens that Eric Partridge's dictionary on English slang terms did not exist in his time. This letter surely shows that Dickens took a lot of pain in order to render his characters' dialogue vivid and indicative of the respective person's background.


Tristram Shandy | 5005 comments Mod
Kim wrote: "Then there is Kyd:



Mr. Sleary"


This one does not look like Kyd at all to me. Thanks for all the illustrations once again, Kim - I do find myself pining for the glories of Phiz, though.


Tristram Shandy | 5005 comments Mod
Kim wrote: "Bounderby is certainly a horse, part of one anyway."

From the front or the back part of the quadruped?


Tristram Shandy | 5005 comments Mod
Kim wrote: "Thanks Peter, but for now we are just spending most of our time at our campground along the river about 30-40 minutes away from home. We've been spending about five days there, two days at home a w..."


Bonners? What's that, Kim? I am sure you never told us of that place.


message 34: by Mary Lou (last edited Jul 08, 2021 08:21AM) (new) - rated it 3 stars

Mary Lou | 2701 comments Kim wrote: "Thanks Peter, but for now we are just spending most of our time at our campground along the river about 30-40 minutes away from home. We've been spending about five days there, two days at home a w..."

I wonder if your campground is in Gettysburg. My son-in-law's family owns a spot at.... Round Top, maybe? ... and the kids spend a lot of time there. It would be funny to find that you've been splashing in the pool with them. :-)

EDIT: Oops, never mind. No river in Gettysburg!


Mary Lou | 2701 comments The illustrations and the letter about circus slang reminds me of one of my pet peeves with this book. I can't stand Sleary's lisp, for lack of a better term. I think the narrator tells us it's something to do with asthma, but I read it as a lisp. Anyhow, unlike some of Dickens' other characters verbal tics, I find this one irritating.


Tristram Shandy | 5005 comments Mod
So do I, Mary Lou. And I can only understand it when I read it aloud. The silver lining is that Sleary does not appear very often in the book.


message 37: by Kim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Kim | 6417 comments Mod
Is there no river in Gettysburg? I never thought about that before. It seems like there are rivers all over the place. And no, we aren't in that campground although I've been there with the grandkids. They aren't thrilled with the one where we have the seasonal site so once a month we take them somewhere else. Here we have no pool, no jumping pillow, no game room, no miniature golf, just grass, campsites, and a river. Oh, and an airstrip. I wasn't thrilled about going to our campground when I found out that while we are on an island, the campsites go all the way along the river in a big circle, the entire center of the island is where small planes, and ultra-lights, I only know what they are now after seeing them there, and things like that land and take off behind us. I dreaded the noise, but there isn't any, the planes are so small, usually one or two people, they don't make much noise, the boats on the river are louder. And they only land on weekends anyway, they have a dinner for the campers, pilots, etc. every other Saturday so that's when the planes come. If you want to see any of it, it's the Sunbury Airport Campground in, yes it's Sunbury, Pennsylvania. I don't know if they have a website, I've never looked, but you get the idea. Now I'm back to thinking how Gettysburg seems to have missed out on having a river. :-)


Mary Lou | 2701 comments Lots of "runs" and creeks, but the Monocacy and the Susquehanna are the nearest rivers I know of.


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