"The Dragonbone Chair" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

Come share all your thoughts!

A few questions to get us started:

1. What did you think of the main character(s)?
2. What did you think of the world?
3. What surprised you?
4. What worked or didn't for you?

Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions

[Michele]

Ha, I'm going to have to go back and see where this volume ends, since I just finished re-reading all four books in the trilogy. (Yeah, that's not a typo - it's a trilogy with four books!)

I love the Hayholt and all its ancient history, for sure. My copy has a blurb from George R. R. Martin where he says how Williams' books inspired him, and I spotted *a lot* of echoes, similarities, homages, etc (we won't say plagiarism, that would be a little too harsh lol). And at least Williams finished his epic >>evil glare at GRRM<<

[Anthony]

I’m only 5 chapters in, but I’m finding it interesting that Williams decided to create a history and culture that feature huge parallels to Christianity. I can’t remember another epic fantasy that’s so closely related to that sort of religious history. I’m curious to see whether he uses his trilogy as an opportunity to dive deeper into those parallels, or if he diverges from there.

[Anthony]

I guess I’m the only one trying to get the discussion going…

Anyway, I just finished Chapter 12, and I have to say that even though the trope of the absent-minded, eccentric Wizard who turns out to be way more powerful than he seemed is well-established, Williams’ depiction of Morgenes’ last stand was very well done.

I’m definitely enjoying this book. It’s not, by any means, the most incredible epic fantasy book I’ve read, but it’s confident and involving, and I feel like I’m in the hands of an author who’s thought through his world with a welcome depth.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

i have a lot of thoughts about the use of Christianity here but they're spoilers for later! I'd live to talk about it more though :)

[Anthony]

@Allison I look forward to hearing your thoughts!

[Christopher]

I think I may have read this in my youth, but I remember nothing about it. Listened to the first hour or two on audio and it went in one ear and out the other so I decided to give up on it rather than listen to the following 31 hours!

[Tiago]

I'll be honest, I found it very average. The pace does get better from the middle of the book forward and you kinda want to know what happens, but when I ended it realized it doesn't come close to other epics such as the ones from Patrick Rothfuss, Robert Jordan, George Martin, Brandon Sanderson.

There are some main issues I think are responsible for this. First is the lack of charismatic characters, starting with Simon, which is meh. Also, too much descriptions and not enough action. Descriptions are important, yes, but in this case they sap the energy of the reader. The villain also is just ok, not really intriguing.

All in all, I was expecting more. I read it gets better in books 2 and 3, but I'm not investing my time continuing the series now. Maybe in the future when my to read list gets smaller.

Hoping to hear what the others thought of the book, if I'm being too harsh or if that's the general opinion.

[David]

I've been reading this off and on all month, and still have a hundred pages or so to go. I see how it influenced Martin, but the novel feels forced into its Epic Fantasy template. Others between Tolkien and Martin took a shot at this (he may not have been any more successful, but King's Gunslinger series certainly took a more imaginative approach). By contrast, Williams's narrative seems unimaginative (I've come to the spoiler thread now because, while I haven't finished, I've given up any expectation of being surprised). The prose leaves a lot to be desired, and aside from the trolls and sithi, the book sometimes feels like a standard YA Medieval Historical novel, subject to some CG, name-transposition virus.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I think comments will trickle in because this is such a long book, so please keep checking back.

I do see a lot of influences in later books here, and can see why it would hold nostalgic value.

[Ellen]

This felt like a generic fantasy novel to me and not a very enjoyable one. I think that I had just completed The Once and Future King did not work in its favor. I kept comparing the two and Dragonbone kept coming up short.
It has the usual components: orphaned boy, evil and good wizards, fanatical religious factions, political unrest. Simon is not very likable at all. I found myself wanting Rachel to beat him some more. Binabik and Qantaqa are my favorite characters. The Sithi historically prominent in the book don't actually make an appearance until almost the last 100 pages. They reminded me of the elves of The Lord of the Rings.
The pacing is very slow. Not much action for 500 pages . Is the main purpose of this book a prep for the rest of the series? No plan for me to find out anytime soon if ever.

[David]

I agree with Ellen. Long narratives in genre fiction (especially works that aspire to Epic status) need to expand the genre; if they aren’t pushing at the envelop, then they’re just thickening the stew, which will eventually become congealed, turgid. and inedible. While The Dragonbone Chair may have inspired others to broaden the Epic Fantasy palette, it doesn’t do much on its own. The descriptions of the Sithi kept me looking for Whoville.

[CBRetriever]

it may have expanded the genre back when it was first released (1988). I remember being enthralled with it when it first came out.

ETA: And it was a bestseller - it's just that now, thirty years later, it seems boring.

[CBRetriever]

and

On August 8, 2020, Warner Bros. purchased the film rights to the book trilogy and production is currently in developmental planning.

[Michelle]

Really?!

[CBRetriever]

Michelle wrote: "Really?!"

nope, it's Otherland, not Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. Rats

[Cathy]

Before reading this, I was not familiar with the author, but I quite enjoyed the book (enough that I finished the trilogy). I have not read an old-school epic fantasy for a while, so it was sort of a comfort read :) I agree that the lead character doesn't start out very likable, but he grows up a lot after book one. Thanks for the selection.

[Mitch]

I read this about four years ago and thought it was good enough to finish the series, but this time, Simon comes across as a spoiled brat who gets lucky. It feels less like fate than authorial intent. Still, the world building is a lot of fun with one major exception. Why are the human cultures inspired by Europeans and the not-human cultures inspired by non-Europeans? I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but it's really awkward.

[M]

I agree. It was easy to put down the first two thirds. The last third I couldn’t put it down. I also agree I didn’t realize Simon’s age for a while and it made more sense once I started book 2 and he mentioned the age. I did like it though and I’m digging the second book.

[Jonathan]

I read it when I was young and enjoyed it overall but I remember feeling like the “2nd third book” dragged on and was a chore to finish. I swear Simon walked up a set of stairs for like a hundred pages. But there were also scenes that I still remembered all these decades later.

So last year I decided to try the audio bk and was surprised by how much Game of Thrones felt inspired by it (at least in the beginning). If they tried a TV show of this now people would think it was a rip-off.

I love the narrator of the audiobooks. And at over 120 hrs for 3 credits it’s a deal. Some people here mentioned it was slow, or too descriptive. Mix that with the voice of the narrator (Andrew Wincott) and it becomes almost meditative. But not boring to me. I found it to be great background entertainment that my conscious mind would focus on while I did other things. (But again I read it before). I’m still not finished the 2nd third bk again, but I think life got in the way. Overall it’s worth a listen at least.

[Michele]

CBRetriever wrote: "it may have expanded the genre back when it was first released (1988). I remember being enthralled with it when it first came out.

ETA: And it was a bestseller - it's just that now, thirty years later, it seems boring."

Yes, I think that's an important point. There is SO much epic fantasy now and all of us have (most likely) read a ton of it, so our expectations are different. Think about for example how stunningly new the original Star Trek was. You can watch it now and pick it apart for overacting or bad special effects or tired plotlines, but at the time it was startlingly original and innovative.

As to whether these books moved the fantasy genre forward, I think they did. In particular, others have mentioned the presence of politics and religion along with the traditional fantasy elements. There's actually quite a lot that pre-figures Game of Thrones. I won't say GRRM stole things, because that's a hard argument to make in a genre that's full of archetypes and classic storylines/elements, but there's more than a whiff of Osten Ard about the Seven Kingdoms.

[CBRetriever]

Michele wrote: "I won't say GRRM stole things"

Read this one and you'll see: The Iron King by Maurice Druon and you'll see both Martin's acknowledgement of the debt he owns to that series and run across characters that you will recognize in the first GoT book. I liked that series a lot

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-268...

[R.M.]

A slow start for about 150 pages but then a decent/good story if not overly original or unique. And you have to tip your hat to Tad Williams for some of his ideas--a lot of things George Martin borrowed for GoT are as is or barely changed from his work (the throne is similar as a symbol, a Moon Door, a prince missing a hand, a knight helm of a hound, a white tree, wolves, white walkers with their Storm King instead of Night King, boy who climbs about the castle). About 10-20 things I noticed.

[R.M.]

David wrote: "I agree with Ellen. Long narratives in genre fiction (especially works that aspire to Epic status) need to expand the genre; if they aren’t pushing at the envelop, then they’re just thickening the ..."

I agree with David and Ellen. But can you think of any popular books from decades ago that expanded the genre? I'm having trouble. I thought Terry Brooks and Richard Jordan kept it even much more unchanged than Tad Williams. I gave Tad props for at least taking a bit of a turn rather than staying rooted in Middle Earth with new names for the characters but the same plot points.

[M]

I remember reading somewhere that GRRM did name Tad Williams MST trilogy as an inspiration for his ASOFAI. He wanted to write his own epic.

[AndrewP]

M wrote: "I remember reading somewhere that GRRM did name Tad Williams MST trilogy as an inspiration for his ASOFAI. He wanted to write his own epic."

Yes I believe George said that Tad Williams inspired him to write his own 4 book trilogy :)

[Gabi]

Finished in a rush (cause I don't like to drag BotMs into the new month), thus I skimmed over some scenery and fighting scenes. Overall I don't mind Tad Williams' slowliness in narration. If it is done in a way that I get immersed into the world I'm okay with it. Compared to my feeling of his other two series I've read (Otherland and Shadowmarch), this one feels less exciting. But I have to re-read the other two to see if I would nowadays still be as enthralled with them as I was decades ago.

I am reading a lot of generic Fantasy novels at the moment (going through the group shelf) and often I feel a strong desire to dnf. I didn't have that feeling here, even though the book was longer than others. So the way Williams drags on is done in a good way for me.

1. What did you think of the main character(s)?

Until he turned into some kind of chosen one at the end I dearly loved this clumsy, moony boy without much ambition. I know that this can't stay that way and that Fantasy always needs some chosen one (why?), but I enjoyed the character while it lasted.

2. What did you think of the world?

As so often, it felt too typical for me. I'm so spoiled by Sanderson's brilliant worldbuilding of Roshar that everything that does not come up to this level of in-world logic is dissappointing (which is ... well every other Fantasy ^^') I especially don't like the usage of common/slightly changed animal/plant/month/weekday names. This always feels like lazy writing,

3. What surprised you?

Nothing. It was a rather straight forward typical epic Fantasy novel.

4. What worked or didn't for you?

Surprisingly despite the above mentioned shortcomings the novel worked for me. I was way less frustrated with it than with i.e. the highly praised Kingkiller Chronicles. I measure my enjoyment of a book on the feeling if I want to dnf or the reluctance to pick it up just to be done with it. And as mentioned above I didn't feel it here. So I will give 3.5 stars rounded up to 4.

[E.D.]

I read William's standalone story, 'The War of the Flowers' about 18 years ago and from what I can remember it was ok but didn't inspire me to rush out and read more.

This book had a pretty similar effect on me. As others have stated, I also found the young hero annoying to begin with but became more accepting as the story progressed. I have no problem with the formulaic nature of the tale or the world it is built around, but was a little disappointed with the way Williams hits the reader over the head with his signposting of the fact that Simon is maturing fast, in addition to telling us where the plot is going.

Having said this, I am interested enough to want to continue to the second book in the series, but not with any sense of urgency.

[Michele]

M wrote: "I remember reading somewhere that GRRM did name Tad Williams MST trilogy as an inspiration for his ASOFAI. He wanted to write his own epic."

He's blurbed as saying exactly this on the cover of my copy of Dragonbone Chair :)

[Aga]

I've finished about a week ago, and I'm surprised how much I liked it. It was exactly like the books I used to read on vacation as a teenager. Oldschool epic fantasy.

1. What did you think of the main character(s)?
I didn't like MC at first. He's an old-school version of an anti-hero. Clumsy, lazy boy, who thinks he is ready for an adventure but isn't very happy when the time comes. In the end, I wasn't so skeptical anymore.

I like that there were other characters with their own POV. The princess in disguise surprised me.

2. What did you think of the world?
I agree with Gabi, Sanderson has spoiled me too. I'm not a fan of this worldbuilding, seemed lazy.

3. What surprised you?
A feeling that I'm reading a missing link between LOTR and modern fantasy. I see how influential it had to be. And similarities between "The Dragonbone Chair" and "The Assasin's Apprentice" were stunning.

4. What worked or didn't for you?
I had a really good time, but I have to admit I started with mixed feelings. A puppy-killing scene will haunt me for a long time.