June 2021 Group Read (spoilerr thread) - The Shape of Water by Andrea Camilleri

[Bill]

This is the spoiler thread for the discussions on The Shape of Water by Andrea Camilleri

[Chris]

So for those who have already read this or fairly far along at this point; what do you think of Montalbano? He lives and works in a world full of corruption. Does he stay above it all or is he corruptible? One scene had me thinking of Robin Hood. Did you?

Were you surprised by some of the strong female characters in the book? Italian society is dominated by men, and in the south it is still very traditional in regards to female roles in society.

[Shannon M (Canada)]

The only good thing about this book is that it provides a good picture of Sicily, a part of Italy that seems more like North Africa, with its acceptance of ongoing corruption.

What I hated about this book is that the protagonist, Inspector Salvo Montalbano, is a male chauvinist. All those beautiful women who want to sleep with him. A male fantasy.

The only strong female figure is Signora Luparello and we got only a few glances of her. Ingrid, supposedly Swedish, is another male fantasy, especially for Italians. A promiscuous female who is also so weak that she lets herself be regularly raped. Montalbano, chauvinist that he is, doesn’t even suggest that she remove herself from a household where she is being raped.

Finally, Montalbano solves the mystery but only in his head. There is no proof and thus no true resolution. He is the epitome of male conceitedness, so sure of himself. A true Sicilian male, I guess.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Shannon M wrote: "The only good thing about this book is that it provides a good picture of Sicily, a part of Italy that seems more like North Africa, with its acceptance of ongoing corruption.

What I hated about t..."

I've just finished rereading this novel and I have to disagree with your conclusions.

First of all, there were two women (other than Livia, who is his girlfriend throughout the series) -- Anna and Ingrid, who had any interest in Montalbano and he held true to Livia with both. How does that make him a male chauvinist? "All those beautiful women...?"

Second, what happened to Ingrid with her father-in-law happened before she knew Montalbano, so how could he have encouraged her to "remove herself" from the situation? She was bent on removing herself. I'd blame her husband.

Third, not only did Montalbano not want to sleep with Ingrid, he protected her from being framed for the death of Luparello once he'd figured things out, which is what Rizzo et al. had in mind from the start.

Fourth, in some ways I'll grant you conceit, but to me it's mild. However, Montalbano has a good heart, as he showed more than once here, but most especially with Saro and getting his family the needed funds to go to Belgium to help their baby.

You also forget to mention the homosexual encounter here (incestuous, I might add) at the heart of the matter.

The whole point of the novel is that if water can take on the shape of what it is contained in, so can information -- the "true resolution" is made known, but the idea here is that the so-called evidence left behind was set to take on a particular shape and Montalbano sees through it all.

[Chris]

Well, Shannon, tell us how you REALLY feel!! LOL!!!

If you are speaking from a 21st century feminist lens, I can see where a a lot of your outrage and critique emanates.

I do agree with Nancy's response, also you have to remember the culture in which this author lived and set his series. Sicily, as a lot of southern Italy, is a very patriarchal society that supports women in very traditional roles. I also don't see him setting himself above women more than he does with many of the male characters. Nor treats them unfairly. As far as fantasizing or having dreams about encounters with women, hmmm...I think that is a universally male thing but not exclusively.. I'm reading a book now that the female MC has had frequent objectifying or sexual thoughts about her male co-workers.

His confidence in himself or "conceitedness" is just a character trait. Holy moley, Hercule Poirot was one of the most smug, conceited detective characters ever written but we all cheer him on!!

I don't know about the corruption in the countries that make up N. Africa, but Italy has dealt with plenty of corruption within the government both locally & nationally. It is also a time when the Mafia still held great sway over business and governments. I like how Camilleri weaves it into the story. Montalbano himself is not immune. Doesn't he look the other way when he uses his childhood friend to get info knowing that he runs an illegal business and his own dealing with Mr. Rizzo to cover up Ingrid's involvement & to get money for a desperate family ( my Robin Hood comment on an earlier post). So he has a compassionate side when he seeks to help others.

The shape of water as Nancy describes & I have read is a commentary on the nature of truth. "Just as water assumes the shape of its container, so too can facts be made to fit the theory"

I am eager to see how his character evolves over the course of the series.

[Shannon M (Canada)]

Chris wrote: "Well, Shannon, tell us how you REALLY feel!! LOL!!!

If you are speaking from a 21st century feminist lens, I can see where a a lot of your outrage and critique emanates.

I do agree with Nancy's..."


I am speaking from a 20th Century feminist lens. By the time this book was published, 1994, I was 54 and the feminist revolution was well over. If it had been written in the 1950s, I could excuse his “traditional” views. But not in 1994, not even in Italy. Of course there will always be men, even today, who espouse the traditional views so prevalent in The Shape of Water. Men like Harvey Weinstein. From fantasizing about beautiful women trying to seduce the primary character to actual rape (by Ingrid’s father-in-law) is simply a matter of degree. It’s all about power, and men believing that they are so incredibly fascinating that beautiful women want nothing from them but their bodies.

I would have accepted it if Ingrid had been born into the traditional Sicilian culture and thus had no way out. But she was Swedish. I believe that Swedish women, blond women, are an Italian dream. That was certainly true on my two visits there. Montalbano could have encouraged Ingrid to escape from the rape situation but didn’t even consider it.

Not everyone loved Hercule Poirot. I read almost everything Christie wrote (everything that was in my public library at least) between the ages of 13 and 16. I detested Poirot. I read those books because of the great plots but I wondered why Christie had to create such a despicable character. Now, from the advantage of age, I wonder if Christie was secretly laughing at the conceited males of her generation; she likely ran into lots of them in her upper middle class environment during the first half of the 20th Century. Maybe, maybe not. But her first husband was certainly the epitome of the conceited male.

I do agree with you about the corruption so prevalent in Sicily, even today. I said that the picture the book painted about living in that culture was very good. That was the one thing I liked about it.

In case you think that I was writing from the point of a privileged upper class female, you are mistaken. I was raised in a working class home. My father couldn’t read and my mother, who could read a bit, never did. I married at 16, had a baby at 17, and separated from my husband before the birth. I started working as an office clerk five weeks after my baby was born. Later, I searched for a way out. I was a nude model, managed to fall in love with several “wrong” men, and finally started university at age 25, eventually becoming a university professor six years later. So I guess I was a 20th Century feminist success. But definitely 20th Century, not 21st Century. And this book was published right at the end of the 20th Century.

[Chris]

Shannon: First Bravo! for being able to put your life on a trajectory that allowed you to find success and security. That must have been a hard road to take!

I appreciate your commentary & critique, so many people make no comments in the discussion threads of their group reads when reading the book. It's a discourse about what we liked and didn't like about storylines, plot devices, characters & writing styles etc.

I hear where you are coming from in your critique. We are of the same generation & I was living in Sicily for 3 years (98-2001) not too many years after this book was written.

[RJ - Slayer of Trolls]

Montalbano reminds me more of Chandler's Philip Marlowe than of Robin Hood. Marlowe was written as a modern "knight" figure, and Montalbano exhibits many of the same characteristics - chivalry and a sense of moral obligation foremost amongst them.

I can't agree with Shannon's views although I understand where she's coming from and I agree that the book's attitude towards women is a bit antiquated from a modern Western perspective. Of course, the author was in his 70s (I believe) when he wrote this book, and that was almost 30 years ago. And the book is set in Italy, in a small town in Sicily, where attitudes might not be as modernized as ours. Not excusing anything, just pointing out that the difference in cultures certainly plays a part here.

Like others here, I enjoyed the book and look forward to reading further in the series to see how Montalbano and the other characters - not to mention the setting - change over time.

[Shannon M (Canada)]

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "Montalbano reminds me more of Chandler's Philip Marlowe than of Robin Hood. Marlowe was written as a modern "knight" figure, and Montalbano exhibits many of the same characteristics - chivalry and ..."

The Shape of Water also reminded me somewhat of the hard-boiled detective novels of the 1920s to early 1950s. I didn’t want to say it because I thought I might be out in left field as no one else had mentioned it.

I never read those macho, ultra-masculine novels when I was younger. After dipping into one, it was never again. I wasn’t a prude; I was devouring classic science fiction novels at that time — the ones by Asimov and Heinlein were my favourites. Today, I love Scottish Noir, the gorier the better; but these do not reflect the male chauvinist view found in The Shape of Water. If anything, in Scottish Noir, the women are “badder” than the men.

But hard-boiled detective stories flourished in the early part of the 20th Century. The Shape of Water was published only 26 years ago (not 30 years ago). It was published 40 years after the end of the classic hard-boiled detective era that was aimed almost exclusively towards men.

I do accept the book’s excellent portrayal of Sicilian culture in 1994, but any reviews should also mention the out-of-date views held by Inspector Montalbano, views that mirror the type of protagonist found in Western literature 50 years ago in male-oriented publications. Does this mean that Sicilian culture is more than 50 years behind the rest of Europe in terms of how it treats women? Maybe. If so, reviews of the book should stress this cultural difference. And I still think that the author got Ingrid wrong. We all make mistakes. Ingrid made a mistake in marrying her husband. Why didn’t she leave him? She was supposed to be an independent Swedish woman.

[Suzy]

I just finished rereading this in audio. I liked it better on a second read, noticing a lot more about the politics, corruption and Sicilian culture this time around. I imagine this is because I was reading it for discussion, rather than relating to it simply as a murder mystery.

The discussion has been out of the ordinary; as Chris earlier pointed out often people just comment whether they liked or did not a book. I appreciate seeing a more robust convo, as a somewhat frequent discussion moderator.

For me, the characters, the crime and Montalbano's response felt real to the setting and to the time. I always take these things into consideration when thinking about a book. I liked Camilleri's writing style and his portrayal of what was going on in Montalbano's head, although because we hadn't been privy to much of his thinking, his conclusions as described to Livia seemed somewhat out of the blue. Thanks Chris and Nancy for your thoughts on "the shape of water".

I will try more from this series. It's become a favorite of an IRL friend, so it will be fun to discuss with her.

Has anyone watched the tv show? 36 episodes from 2010 to just this spring. I don't subscribe to the channel that streams them, but luckily my library has them all on DVD. I did watch an episode of a spin-off, The Young Montalbano, but was not impressed

[Bill]

I'm so glad that this story has engendered such spirited conversation. I hope more of the chosen books do the same.

[Chris]

RJ wrote: Montalbano reminds me more of Chandler's Philip Marlowe than of Robin Hood. Marlowe was written as a modern "knight" figure, and Montalbano exhibits many of the same characteristics - chivalry and a sense of moral obligation foremost amongst them.

Thanks RJ for that interesting comparison. I think I've only read one book with the Marlowe character. Noir writing is not my favorite of the mystery genres, although hard-boiled detectives are not the issue for me. I made my Robin Hood comment as I had just finished the section where Montalbano extracted money from Mr. Rizzo to give to a needy family.

the book is set in Italy, in a small town in Sicily, where attitudes might not be as modernized as ours. Not excusing anything, just pointing out that the difference in cultures certainly plays a part here.
You are right on point there!!! Sicily was quite behind the times in many facets of their lives. I can personally attest to that from my 3 yrs of living there.

[Chris]

Thanks Suzy for your comments.

I haven't seen the TV series, but I think someone mentioned it before and said the character of Montalbano on the series didn't match with their picture of him from the books.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Suzy wrote: "I just finished rereading this in audio. I liked it better on a second read, noticing a lot more about the politics, corruption and Sicilian culture this time around. I imagine this is because I wa..."

I have the entire series on dvd, first having seen a few episodes on MHz. I love the guy who plays Montalbano -- in spite of what others have said, he does the character well and is what I envisioned in the character. I only started watching the episodes once I'd finished most of the series, and wasn't disappointed at all.

[Chris]

Nancy wrote: I have the entire series on dvd, first having seen a few episodes on MHz. I love the guy who plays Montalbano -- in spite of what others have said, he does the character well and is what I envisioned in the character. I only started watching the episodes once I'd finished most of the series, and wasn't disappointed at all.

Good to know!

[fleurette]

RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "Montalbano reminds me more of Chandler's Philip Marlowe than of Robin Hood. Marlowe was written as a modern "knight" figure, and Montalbano exhibits many of the same characteristics - chivalry and ..."


Overall, the whole novel reminded me some of Chandler's books - not only Montalbano, but also the dark atmosphere of the book. It was the latter that I did not expect from this book. I thought it would be a much simpler story.

I am not sure if I would consider Montalbano to be a modern Robin Hood, but he certainly works well in the corruption-laden world created by the author. He knows when and what to say. This is a very interesting part of this character.

I also plan to read more books in this series.

[Suzy]

fleurette wrote: "RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "Montalbano reminds me more of Chandler's Philip Marlowe than of Robin Hood. Marlowe was written as a modern "knight" figure, and Montalbano exhibits many of the same c..."

Fleurette, I like seeing your thoughts on this one and your comment " but he certainly works well in the corruption-laden world created by the author." reminds me of Bruno, Chief of Police in the Dordognes in France. It's not quite as corruption laden, but he knows when to push, when to look the other way and when to orchestrate a solution that, while not quite by the book, is one that serves all and the community well.

[fleurette]

Suzy wrote: "Fleurette, I like seeing your thoughts on ..."


Oh, that's interesting! I haven't read this series yet, but I'm adding it to my tbr.

[Suzy]

fleurette wrote: "Suzy wrote: "Fleurette, I like seeing your thoughts on ..."


Oh, that's interesting! I haven't read this series yet, but I'm adding it to my tbr."

I love it - one of a handful of series that I keep up on! I hope you enjoy.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

I thought the novel what everyone has already mentioned above, except for my impression of Montalbano as someone who shakes off the darkness very effectively. To me, he is someone who apparently can box up misery and bad stuff, shove it all out of sight and go enjoy the sunshine.

[RJ - Slayer of Trolls]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "I thought the novel what everyone has already mentioned above, except for my impression of Montalbano as someone who shakes off the darkness very effectively. To me, he is someone who apparently ca..."

That is a really good observation. I wonder how much of the author is in Montalbano?

[Suzy]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "I thought the novel what everyone has already mentioned above, except for my impression of Montalbano as someone who shakes off the darkness very effectively. To me, he is someone who apparently ca..."

Interesting observation, April. Just from this book, I think while having some fun/enjoying himself, he is always working on the case in the back of his mind. He may shove the box back into the deep recesses, but it's still probably open.

[Suzy]

I just watched the first episode of the tv series last night. I wasn't prepared that they would be movie-length! We really enjoyed and will watch at least the other 2 episodes that came in the DVD case. Amazing the series started in 1999 and just released two episodes earlier this year.

I have downloaded the audio of the second book in this series, but not sure I will continue. I enjoyed, but not as much as some of the other series I read. My husband told me about a collection of short stories that he really liked Montalbano's First Case, I might give those a try.

[CBRetriever]

Suzy wrote: "My husband told me about a collection of short stories that he really liked Montalbano's First Case, I might give those a try"

those were pretty good - they're what made me buy other books in the series

[Chris]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "I thought the novel what everyone has already mentioned above, except for my impression of Montalbano as someone who shakes off the darkness very effectively. To me, he is someone who apparently ca..."

Yes, I agree that he is able to compartmentalize. I think it is probably a trait which serves him well in his job.