Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
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The Masqueraders
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The Masqueraders June 2021 Group Read *Spoilers Here!*
Susan in NC wrote: "Teresa wrote: "I'm struggling big time with this one. I've laid it aside for a day or two and I'll try it again."That’s why I like audiobooks, Teresa- I can knit while listening, fast forward if ..."
I've started to listen to audio books Susan but I like my Heyer's in hard copy.
Teresa wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Teresa wrote: "I'm struggling big time with this one. I've laid it aside for a day or two and I'll try it again."That’s why I like audiobooks, Teresa- I can knit while listeni..."
Oh, ok - I like my favorites in hard copy, I listen to the others. I find my lesser favorite books become more entertaining with a good narrator! It’s like my own personal radio performance. And especially with rereads, listening refreshes my memory of the plot enough that I can understand the discussion here.
I'm listening to some of the classics on audio. Also listening to the Christie books on audio. It's a great way to make the house work more interesting :)
So true! “Folding the laundry to the classics!” 😂
I really got into podcasts when I found myself spending so much time in the kitchen this past year!I am nearing the halfway point of this book, which I hadn't read before. It's definitely picking up and I'm finding it hard to put down--I'm avoiding spoilers so I will pop back in when I've finished.
Susan wrote: "I have just finished this one. I also struggled with the language at the beginning and was thinking it might have been a dud, but then I just seemed to get into the rhythm of the language and overa..."This was my first read. I found the style a challenge at first too. But once I got into the story I began to appreciate it and, like you, ended up enjoying this one, including the cadence of the language.
Another aspect was the gender-switch. (As an aside, this doesn’t appeal to me in Shakespeare either. On the page, at least; on stage it can be hilarious if done well, I’ve seen a man playing a woman playing a man!)
I liked the family dynamics, the affection and respect both between the siblings and which they had for the ‘old gentleman.’ He was a fun character, although he did run on so at times!
Tony was a lovely hero and the romance well-developed. I liked that Prudence didn’t waste time denying her feelings, either to him or herself. And as others have said, that night ride and the barn scene... so beautifully written, so romantic!
This has never been one of my favourites although I adore Tony and Prudence. I find the Old Man utterly loathsome. I can see that Heyer's intention was for him to be a plot device, and add some humour and indeed, farce to the story but it just doesn’t work for me. A more egocentric, selfish and insensitive character would be hard to find amongst those that are meant to be major players. I do not find him fun - merely repellent.
Whilst I love Prudence and Sir. Anthony and found them to be one of GH’s more adorable couples, I found it difficult to be interested in Robin and Letty until the very end. This, for me, was a book of many parts - some good, some bad, some boring and some simply awful, and I felt the writing was a tad too exaggerated. Very much a case of over-egging the pudding. On this read, I confess to skimming a little - something I never normally do with a Heyer!
“Over-egging the pudding” - perfect! I confess to skimming as well - I had a library book that had to be finished and returned, so needs must...
Mod
He reappears later to some extent in The Foundling as Sam (call me Swithin) Liversedge and particularly in Charity Girl as (view spoiler) who also has the multiple identities. They're all three grandiose, shameless and utterly unscrupulous, and the two later characters openly criminal, though Liversedge too is seen by other characters as having the same charisma that 'the old gentleman' has.
I feel quite uncomfortable with how well the 'old gentleman's' charisma works on me - I find myself cheering against my will when he finally succeeds, even though he's not morally superior to Rensley in any way. I like to think that Prue escapes his control in the end, but I'm not sure that Robin ever will - next time the OG needs someone assassinating, who will he send? Robin should really have married someone like Sophy Stanton-Lacy!
Jenny wrote: "He reappears later to some extent in The Foundling as Sam (call me Swithin) Liversedge and particularly in ..."The Old Gentleman reminded me of the same people, Jenny! I was relieved that Robin and Prue could rest easily - they have been through it, haven't they?
The old gentleman and Mr. Liversedge certainly have some mannerisms and personality traits in common, but to me it's evident that the old gentleman actually possesses the mental acuity that Liversedge only thinks he has.
Mod
Otherwise, Robin is taking a terrible risk in revealing all to Letty, who is a dizzy romantic whom he barely knows and who falls in love at the drop of a hat. I can quite see, in a couple of years' time, Letty getting a bit bored with married respectability, falling for some new charmer with romantic ways and realising that she has the perfect means of disposing of an unwanted husband ...
Jenny wrote: "I was just thinking what a good job it is that this is a romance and we can assume that everybody lives happily ever after.Otherwise, Robin is taking a terrible risk in revealing all to Letty, wh..."
Oh I think Robin and Letty will have enough adventures to keep her happy. I cannot see them sinking into staid respectability.
Jenny, it never even occurred to me that they might not live happily ever after! Letty will never get bored, as her Father in Law will come visit all the time and get up to some trouble with his grandkids or something.
Is this an action/adventure or a romance? If the latter, is there such a thing as a double romance? (Not since Sense and Sensibility? Heyer did claim to be a big Austen fan.)
It is adventure - it has a swordfight! - and, yes, two romances in the plot.
Jackie wrote: "Jenny, it never even occurred to me that they might not live happily ever after! Letty will never get bored, as her Father in Law will come visit all the time and get up to some trouble with his gr..."I think there is too much of the juvenile egotist in both of them for there to be no conflict. Letty will never like being overlooked in favour of Barham, and he will never allow anyone to occupy more of the stage than he does. I foresee conflict as Letty becomes a woman instead of a young girl.
Jenny wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: " I find the Old Man utterly loathsome ... A more egocentric, selfish and insensitive character would be hard to find amongst those that are meant to be major players. I ..."I don't think GH gave as much attention to the secondary romance as she did with Prudence and Tony. I agree, Letty is a poor match for Robin. I think he'll get bored with her (unless she grows up very quickly), and be unfaithful. Oh, I am a sad cynic! (ducks swiftly).
Mod
Yes, he's fallen for a pretty face, hasn't he? And her cute ways. They don't really know each other.
Alternatively, Susan in P, this is a romance and to give it a HEA for all concerned, maybe Barham could grow up?
Martin wrote: "Alternatively, Susan in P, this is a romance and to give it a HEA for all concerned, maybe Barham could grow up?"Absolutely I would have loved for Barham to grow up!
Jenny wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: " Letty is a poor match for Robin. I think he'll get bored with her (unless she grows up very quickly), and be unfaithful...." Yes, he's fallen for a pretty face, hasn'..."
Totally agree Jenny!
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Martin wrote: "Alternatively, Susan in P, this is a romance and to give it a HEA for all concerned, maybe Barham could grow up?"Absolutely I would have loved for Barham to grow up!"
Susan, you make good points.
OK, we need the HEA so what might force Barham to grow up? I think it has something to do with an endangered grandchild. We need a sequel!
I finished it this morning and found it very enjoyable--each of the three main characters (Robin, Prue and Tony) got a thrilling action scene and normally that kind of thing bores me. The Old Gentleman also had a great and suspenseful scene. I'm curious if others agree with me that, in spite of his convincing evidence of his identity, he somehow faked it all. Or is it made clear somewhere and I missed it (entirely possible)?I don't imagine the Old Gentleman will ever, ever change!
Sheila, in the Old Gentleman's identity revelation scene, John clinches it for me. "Burtons have always served Tremaine."
Ah, yes, I do remember that. Thank you, Margaret. :)
Sheila, and Margaret,Yes, but maybe there was a little bit of ambiguity? Maybe Heyer doesn't want us to be entirely sure?
Heyer's a disciple of Jane Austen, who was not above telling little lies to us poor readers. Remember Louisa's 'lifeless' body on the Cobb in Persuasion? (She lives to love again.)
Martin wrote: "Yes, but maybe there was a little bit of ambiguity? Maybe Heyer doesn't want us to be entirely sure?"I think Heyer meant John to settle any remaining doubts--for the reader as well as the characters--but if you feel you can tease out a bit of ambiguity from the scene, be my guest!
I agree with you, Margaret. Not just John, but the portrait hidden in the book in the room. And both were necessary because the old man's credibility had been so thoroughly destroyed prior to that point.But the title was needed for both love stories to reach HEA. She had refused 'the mountain' pending her being proved, by the father's title, to be worthy. It wasn't quite so clear but Robin had a similar hurdle (Letty's father's approval) in the way.
According to the the Romance Writers of America, it's not a romance without the HEA. (Actually, they phrase it a little more broadly, but that's still the idea.) Heyer kept to that rule, even though she preceded it.
Yes, it’s a rule of romantic comedy and perhaps the Romance Writers of America have a point, but rules are made to be broken! Fiction that follows all the rules can get boringly predictable. I wish there were less devotion to the rules of genre fiction and more room for surprises. But that’s beside the point here.The Old Gentleman’s foresight and imagination actually are fairly impressive, though maybe not at the level that he thinks. This book really impresses me because of all the balls Heyer is able to keep in the air at once. All of them interconnected and threads nicely wound up.
Agreed, Abigail. The RWA 'rules' (I think 'definitions' would be a better word) were written after Heyer, so there was no way we can ask if Heyer follows them.Another RWA rule is that a romance has a single, central love story. Heyer has two simultaneous love stories, so Masqueraders is not, per RWA, a romance.
Nor is Austen's Sense and Sensibility an RWA romance. I think this makes a strong case for the RWA to do some more thinking. Austen and Heyer have already done their thinking. All of them, as you say, 'in the air at once' and 'interconnected and threads nicely wound up.'
Mod
'Two simultaneous love stories' is very common in GH - we're always seeing the beautiful but dizzy young secondary heroine and her suitor contrasted with the older, more sensible (grey-eyed!) primary one, aren't we?
I believe it was in the 1980s that romance-novel fashion started to turn against the strong subplot. I was in a workshop for authors of romantic fiction at the time, and the teacher was adamant that it was almost impossible to get a publisher to bite on a proposal if the author had a secondary story line. In the 1970s it was still considered normal! One reason I enjoy Heyer novels so much is that they represent an earlier era, when light fiction didn’t have to be dumbed down.
Jenny wrote: "Martin wrote: "Another RWA rule is that a romance has a single, central love story. Heyer has two simultaneous love stories, so Masqueraders is not, per RWA, a romance..."'Two simultaneous love s..."
we are, Jenny, and I love that about Heyer!
Jenny, re 'is very common in GH' Feel free to recommend some! I've only just started reading The Grand Heyer.
Thanks, Jackie. I started with The Masqueraders. That was after a few on my own when I looked to see if there was a Heyer group.
Mod
Well, The Grand Sophy (as I assume you mean!) is certainly one of them. The three with a similar plot, The Foundling, Sprig Muslin and Charity Girl; then there's Frederica and April Lady and Devil's Cub as well as The Talisman Ring already mentioned. I think A Civil Contract also counts, though I would call that more of a love story than a romance - the fact that love is better than romance is the very point of the story. It's even present in An Infamous Army.
The Nonesuch is a bit of an exception in that the secondary romance involves another sensible, level-headed young lady, who will probably be very happy; as is Black Sheep, where the attempts by her elders to thwart the dizzy young lady's romance are all too justified and Friday's Child where the contrast between primary and secondary heroines is based on other characteristics.
Georgette Heyer described herself as writing 'escapist literature' and I've a strong sense that she wouldn't give a toss for any 'rules' or even 'guidelines' for writing! I don't think she'd care what the RNA or the RWA said - she established the template for Regency fiction so wrote as she pleased, trying always to be accurate of course. Martin - welcome to the group - what other Heyer's have you read?
Thanks a dozen times, Jenny.Susan, I started with The Grand Sophie (which I loved) and then Sylvester, which I would have loved except that it wasn't another Sophie. I tried The Black Moth but didn't understand it. The Masqueraders (strong action/adventure but the romance, particularly Robin/Letty, was weaker). I loved The Corinthian. I just started Bath Tangle and was annoyed at the big backstory dump in chapter 1 (read it twice). If it ends up being an enemies to lovers I'm going to be mad at it. Cotillion is waiting in my inbox. And I've saved Jenny's post. (This from memory, and I'm getting too old to trust that source.)
I'm a huge Jane Austen fan, but I've already noticed that Heyer's Regency dialog has a lot more earth than Austen's (daughter of the vicar!).
Oops. Beauvallet, a much-too-perfect-for-romance hero, but fun action/adventure.
Martin wrote: "Thanks a dozen times, Jenny.Susan, I started with The Grand Sophie (which I loved) and then Sylvester, which I would have loved except that it wasn't another Sophie. I tried The Black Moth but di..."
I love The Grand Sophy - one of my absolute favourites! Again it illustrates her ability to keep control of so many threads and then bring them together for a happy resolution at the end. There isn’t another Sophy I’m afraid!
Bath Tangle always attracts strong views and I’ll say no more!
But there are loads of others - How I envy you having them all ahead of you to discover!
Cotillion is wonderful! hope you like it, Martin. feel free to comment on any and all threads no matter how old, it's always fun to hear someone talk about the first time they read a Heyer. I know I'm not alone here in having read most of them many, many times.
Remember we are in the Masqueraders thread, please try to stay on topic. Re: Heyer recommendations, a nice feature to check out is the group bookshelf. You can click on 'view activity' at the far right of the row to check out group discussions and group members' reviews of Heyer books.
https://www.goodreads.com/group/books...
Critterbee❇ wrote: "Remember we are in the Masqueraders thread, please try to stay on topic. Re: Heyer recommendations, a nice feature to check out is the group bookshelf. You can click on 'view activity' at the far..."
A final off-topic comment: Thanks, Critterbee! That is such a useful feature!
I'm falling down big time this month. Still haven't gone back to The Masqueraders. The first time I haven't picked up a Heyer and read it in two days!!!
Teresa wrote: "I'm falling down big time this month. Still haven't gone back to The Masqueraders. The first time I haven't picked up a Heyer and read it in two days!!!"Sometimes a book just doesn't work for you, no matter how much you love the author!
I suppose so Carol. I must admit I've had a busy couple of weeks and I seem also to be in a 'non-fiction mode' at the moment. I WILL get to it. I haven't missed a monthly Heyer read yet!!
One of the highlights of this book for me is the relationship between Robin and his sister. I reread this passage several times. It's from chapter 24:She [Prudence] could never be at ease when Robin danced abroad in this fashion, but long training had taught her to assume a calm she was far from feeling. She would scorn to importune her brother with her fears, but there could be no peace for her until he was come safe back again.
She had not long to wait now before the sound of horses came to her listening ears. In another moment or two Robin had pulled up beside her.
She stepped forward, with eager hands stretched out to touch him, as though she must make sure that way of his safety. He bent in the saddle to grip her shoulder a minute. "Madam Anxiety!"
I think I'll have to give this one a miss. I can't pick up a book at all at the moment. Any book!! Don't know what's wrong. It's really bugging me. I have an audio book I'm listening to for another group and I can't even listen to that!!!
Georgette Heyer Fans
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The Masqueraders (other topics)
The Masqueraders (other topics)
perhaps it is a first read? or yo..."
I absolutely love Heyer. It could just be the moment. I'll pick it up again in a day or so. Thanks Jackie for the pep talk.