Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Austen, Pride and Prejudice
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Week 6: Vol. III, XI – XIX (53 – 61) and work as a whole
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It's a romantic comedy, so it has to end with marriage and a happily ever after. It may be the cynic in me, but it strikes me as just too good to be true. On the one hand, I want all the loose ends to be satisfactorily tied up with a happily ever after ending; on the other hand, I can't help but balk at how unrealistic it all is.
I wonder what Elizabeth thought of the way Mr. Bennet is glad that he won't have to pay Mr. Darcy back when he was worried about repaying Elizabeth's uncle. Isn't it so convenient that Mr. Darcy's sister is so unlike the Bingley sisters and that he has no parents to oppose his marriage? I find all the situations working up to the marriage very unlikely, and I thought the way Elizabeth suggested the reason for Darcy's attraction in the end somewhat a feeble rationalization, but I guess it wouldn't have gained such popularity if it didn't have such a happily ever after ending. I would still like a comparison of Mr. Darcy's future affection to the change in Mr. Bennet's regard to his wife.
I do enjoy this book but have always thought the ending seemed very rushed. Were there any external circumstances that might have caused Austen to quickly end the novel?
Mike wrote: "I do enjoy this book but have always thought the ending seemed very rushed. Were there any external circumstances that might have caused Austen to quickly end the novel?"Where, do you think, Austen should have elaborated more?
I noticed something interesting in the last chapter. For the first time, the narrator injects her voice. She is speaking about Mrs. Bennet here:I wish I could say, for the sake of her family, that the accomplishment of her earnest desire in the establishment of so many of her children, produced so happy an effect as to make her a sensible, amiable, well-informed woman for the rest of her life . . .
I could be mistaken, but I think it is the only time she speaks with the first-person pronoun. Did she do it earlier and I missed it? If not, I wonder why she injects her direct voice at the end. Any ideas?
A happily ever after ending is almost a requirement, is it not? If the author's intent was to expose both pride and prejudice as social vices it is helpful to not only show their negative impact on the people, lives, and emotions of those involved, but also to demonstrate the rewards of overcoming excesses and deficiencies in them by desirable outcomes, no matter how syrupy.Otherwise the characters would have to learn the lesson too late and pine over missed opportunities. Or worse, excessive pride and prejudice are justified and the characters would be compelled to say things like, "see, I told you those people were no good", and "I sure am glad I did not marry him or her", in the end. The times seem to be a bit early to end in existential doubt. Instead it seems to be better than average morality tale.
I think we actually have several cases represented, Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy have overcome excessive pride and prejudice and get a happy every after ending. Jane and Bingley seem to start with better governed prides and prejudices themselves but show it is hard enough to come together over other peoples pride and prejudices. Lydia and Wickham are both rather shameless and deficient in pride and prejudice and end up perpetual moochers seemingly bound for unhappiness.
Tamara wrote: "I noticed something interesting in the last chapter. For the first time, the narrator injects her voice. She is speaking about Mrs. Bennet here:I wish I could say, for the sake of her family, tha..."
I noticed that too.
For as much effort as Mrs. Bennet put in in getting her daughters married, in the end, she didn't do much at all, her actions were actually more counter-productive to assure favorable outcomes. Her overflowing praise of the Wickhams once they were married was completely out of place. On the other end, her over the top disdain for Mr. Darcy was completely out of place as well. She consistently fails in good judgment. Perhaps Jane Austen was sorry she couldn't report any improvement to a character such as hers.
An interesting, if depressing article making the case that Wickham is a serial sexual predator: Michigan Law Review
I felt that the ending seemed rush because I did not feel that the entailment of Longbourn and the outcome of that were properly resolved. It seemed that the entailment of Longbourn was a major plot point early on but was just left up in the air in the end.
Mike wrote: "I felt that the ending seemed rush because I did not feel that the entailment of Longbourn and the outcome of that were properly resolved. It seemed that the entailment of Longbourn was a major plo..."I hadn't thought of that! But you are right, there is no resolution there. Maybe there really isn't one unless Collins gets payed off somehow. Both Jane and Elizabeth are so well situated now that the pressure of where their mother will end up should she be widowed will be taken care of in one form or another. Kitty, it seems, is spared the fate of Lydia, and Mary shows some improvement too. There is still hope for them to make a reasonable match.
Here are some things to ponder about happy endings: We all seek happiness, it is part of human nature. Why is it then that we are so skeptical these days about happy endings? There is this perception that tragic endings are more "real" than happy ones. Is this really true? Are we misinterpreting what constitutes happiness? Is there anything that happy endings can teach us?
Kerstin wrote: "Why is it then that we are so skeptical these days about happy endings?"Maybe a contributing factor to the skepticism is a Stoic self-defense against the pain and disappointment of unmet expectations and hopes? It is interesting to look for this idea reflected in the characters. Lydia is too inexperienced to have learned govern her expectations. Elizabeth plays mind games with herself to govern her expectations and is more accepting of conditions, and Jane, suffers unnecessarily in resignation to her worst expectations
Another point on a fittingly happily ever after ending is that this story is fairy-tale like as it is just set amongst the gentry instead of princes and princesses. I wonder who Jane Austen's intended target audience was?
Kerstin wrote: "For as much effort as Mrs. Bennet put in in getting her daughters married, in the end, she didn't do much at all, her actions were actually more counter-productive to assure favorable outcomes. ..." Mrs. Bennet was one of the major sources of humour in the novel, I really like her character.
Chapter 59:
"Good gracious!" cried Mrs. Bennet, as she stood at a window the next morning, "if that disagreeable Mr. Darcy is not coming here again with our dear Bingley!"
after 4 pages, a few minutes later:
"I am so pleased—so happy. Such a charming man!—so handsome! so tall!—Oh, my dear Lizzy! pray apologise for my having disliked him so much before"
Emil wrote: "Mrs. Bennet was one of the major sources of humour in the novel, I really like her character..."I like the fact she is totally consumed by setting up her daughters with financial security. If any man snubs her daughters, she lashes out against him. If he proposes, she becomes lovey dovey toward him. In that sense, she is very consistent. I give her credit for being more concerned with their financial security than Mr. Bennet.
David wrote: "Another point on a fittingly happily ever after ending is that this story is fairy-tale like as it is just set amongst the gentry instead of princes and princesses..."Your comment got me thinking about other parallels between Pride and Prejudice and fairy tales, specifically Snow White and Cinderella.
The absent father: Mr. Bennet is present but he may as well not be as his role in his daughters’ lives is minimal at best. In Snow White and Cinderella, the father is also absent in one way or another.
Female rivalry: The Bingley sister competes with Lizzie to win Darcy. She ridicules her, puts her down, snubs her, etc. In Snow White and Cinderella, it is either the step-mother and/or step-sisters who compete with the girl. The prize in all cases is to win the handsome prince in marriage. It’s always a female pitted against another female.
The male as savior: In the time of P&P, very few options for self-sufficiency were available to women. This put women in the position of having to sit around, look pretty, while waiting and hoping for a man to rescue them: Charlotte and Mr. Collins, Lydia and Wickham, Jane and Bingley, and Lizzie and Darcy. Darcy marries Lizzie on her terms but he rescues Lydia. The women are pretty helpless without men. Similarly, Snow White and Cinderella rely on a Prince Charming to rescue them.
I have no problem with marriage. I do, however, have a problem when girls are socialized to believe they are helpless and need a man to rescue them. That's probably why i have a bit of a problem with the happily ever after ending of P&P.
I think fairy tales are very damaging to a girl’s self-esteem unless they are deconstructed because they send all the wrong messages to boys and girls.
Imagine if Cinderella threw away her glass slippers (which probably hurt her feet and do irrevocable damage to her posture in the long run), put on a pair of comfortable sneakers or hiking boots, and made good use of her house-cleaning skills by starting her own house-cleaning business. She could call it something like, "Cinders Away!" And then if Prince Charming comes along and wants to marry her, he will have to do so on her terms.
Wouldn’t that be grand?
I’ll get off my soap-box now :)
Tamara wrote: "I think fairy tales are very damaging to a girl’s self-esteem unless they are deconstructed because they send all the wrong messages to boys and girls."Ah, but what about enchantment? To be transported into a world of magic and wonder! I love fairytales, always did :-)
"Fairy tales don't tell children that dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children that dragons can be killed." G.K. Chesterton
Kerstin wrote: "Ah, but what about enchantment? To be transported into a world of magic and wonder! I love fairytales, always did :-).."I guess it depends on the type of fairy tale. Fairy tales feed the imagination. I'm in favor of a world of magic and wonder as long as it's not reinforcing negative stereotypes.
Tamara wrote: "David wrote: "Another point on a fittingly happily ever after ending is that this story is fairy-tale like as it is just set amongst the gentry instead of princes and princesses..."Your comment g..."
The youngest daughter is a stock character in many european and middle eastern folk tales. She is always underestimated but after many adventures she's marrying the handsome prince. Maybe Lydia is seeing herself as a "youngest daughter" and she acts accordingly, falling into Wickham's trap ( a false Prince Charming)
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Even if some of them definitely need editing, I don't consider fairy-tales extremely damaging as long as the young readers understand that they are works of fiction, or at least that they happened a looong time ago, when the world was governed by different rules.
If we're talking about generating low self-esteem, fairy tales are doing a lot less damage than parents unfavourably comparing their children to siblings or to other children in order to motivate them.
Tamara wrote: "then if Prince Charming comes along and wants to marry her, he will have to do so on her terms."I like the absent father comparison and I certainly understand the negative female stereotypes and other points mentioned critical of fairy tales. And I would like to add this for consideration.
Despite, or possibly because of the very real historical constraints of the time, one would guess P&P with its happily ever after ending would rank fairly high as viewed through the prism of feminist values. The primary hero of the story is Elizabeth. She did not start a business or become economically independent first, but her bravery, anger, and intelligence enable her to deny all of the patriarchal and class presumptions of the day when she refuses to accept Mr. Darcy's first marriage proposal and forgets about it until perspectives were changed and things were on her terms of leveled mutual understanding, admiration, and respect; free of the usual societal prejudices of the day. We should also not forget she repeats her denial to conform to those same presumptions again when she stands up to Lady Catherine's trying to get her to play along nicely.
The final scene with Lady Catherine! I have two thoughts on it:1. It shows how much Elizabeth is her mother's daughter. We've had several scenes of Mrs Bennet getting offended by things her 'betters' have said and standing up for herself. Yes, most of those situations are ridiculous, and she looks like a prat, but you certainly can't call her spineless. . Now Elizabeth is in the reverse position, where her 'better' is asking her for an unreasonable promise and she refuses to make it. A lesser character would have been cowed into submission.
2. Lady Catherine says, 'Miss Bennet, there seemed to be a prettyish kind of a little wilderness on one side of your lawn.' I happen to be reading Sense and Sensibility in another context, and they've just arrived at Cleveland, which is described as having many different types of garden. I was curious, so I looked up what exactly the differences were. A wilderness garden is not what we would now think of as wilderness: there was no chance of a bear attack. It meant you had straight paths laid out, and between the paths there were tall trees surrounding shrubs, as opposed to flowers and fountains. They were also usually several acres. So Lady Catherine might be belittling the Bennets by deliberately underestimating the size of their estate, which she has already called 'very small.' She might also be insinuating that they can't afford to update their gardens, because by the time the book is set, wilderness gardens were out of fashion in favour of shrubberies, which replaced the straight paths with winding ones, the tall trees with tall shrubs, and which had flowers on the borders. Finally, it might be a sign of how out of touch Lady Catherine is, since she is confusing the gardens that were fashionable when she was younger with the new-fashioned garden style the Bennets have previously been described as having.
David wrote: "Despite, or possibly because of the very real historical constraints of the time, one would guess P&P with its happily ever after ending would rank fairly high as viewed through the prism of feminist values..."I agree up to a point. But it is worth keeping in mind Elizabeth is atypical, the exception to the rule. Unlike Caroline Bingley, she doesn’t try to ingratiate herself to a man. Unlike Charlotte, she is unwilling to compromise her standards for financial security. And unlike Jane, she is not just a pretty face with a docile, accommodating temperament. Elizabeth is intelligent, strong-willed, articulate, and unwilling to compromise her standards. She seeks equality in marriage.
Darcy is also atypical, the exception to the rule. He doesn’t seek a pretty face with a docile, accommodating temperament (Bingley). Nor is he so anxious to marry that he substitutes one woman for another as if they are interchangeable commodities (Collins). Darcy seeks an intelligent, articulate woman who challenges his thinking and who is unafraid to express her opinion. He seeks equality in marriage.
Of the four marriages at the end of the novel, Elizabeth’s and Darcy’s stand out because they are exceptional people. Elizabeth defies the gendered expectations of her society through her unwillingness to submerge her identity to please a man. Darcy defies the class norms of his society by his choice for a wife. These individuals are not the rule in Jane Austen’s world. They are exceptions.
One can argue Jane Austen is showing the way forward. Through Elizabeth, she demonstrates women can assert themselves and still find desirable mates. Through Darcy, she demonstrates there are men who value equality in marriage. In that sense, Austen challenges the restrictive norms of her time, and for that she is to be credited.
But even in the world Austen creates, she posits the Elizabeths and Darcys of this world as exceptions to the rule. How easy is it for the Elizabeths and Darcys of Austen’s world to find each other when they are so atypical? A bit like finding a needle in a haystack.
I also thought it reflects the marriage of the Benneth father. Hereof it is said that he married a pretty face with nothing to it. Darcy, who can pretty much pick whoever he wants because of his wealth, doesn´t seem to make the same mistake (a mere pretty face over intelligence)
David wrote: "The primary hero of the story is Elizabeth. She did not start a business or become economically independent first, but her bravery, anger, and intelligence enable her to deny all of the patriarchal and class presumptions of the day when she refuses to accept Mr. Darcy's first marriage proposal and forgets about it until perspectives were changed and things were on her terms of leveled mutual understanding, admiration, and respect; free of the usual societal prejudices of the day. We should also not forget she repeats her denial to conform to those same presumptions again when she stands up to Lady Catherine's trying to get her to play along nicely."Well said.
I look at Elizabeth Bennet as one of the most endearing and astute heroines in literature. She is truly a great example within the Western tradition, a worthy daughter of Penelope. Up and down the centuries, millennia, really, the Western tradition has produced scores and scores of astute women who knew their own mind, I don't believe them to be exceptions at all. There are too many of them.
Jane Austen created one of the most memorable couples in Elizabeth Bennet and Fitzwilliam Darcy in all of literature. The character of Mr. Darcy, especially, has made an enormous impact on the romantic imagination ever since he was created. Why?I am suggesting it is because he personifies a noble chivalric ideal, to sacrifice for his lady without knowing beforehand if his sacrifice will bear fruit. He does it because it is the right thing to do for her and for him.
Chivalry runs deep in the Western imagination, the ideal of the gallant warrior. He is ready to slay dragons, so to speak, for his beloved, but he must also be virtuous so as to be worthy of her love. It is a reciprocal relationship. Chivalry is a high cultural ideal of man as the protector. Mr. Darcy exemplifies these traits. He falls in love with Elizabeth, but he is not yet worthy of her love, since his virtue is lacking. He has too much pride. Love is not just a fuzzy feeling, wonderful as it is, fleeting and short, but an act of the will. In the Western/Christian understanding, the highest form of love is agape, to will the good of the other. Sometimes willing the good of the other means to sacrifice and take risks, to slay the dragon, to bring about the desired good. The metaphorical dragon here is the elopement of Lydia, the scandal that gives Elizabeth great suffering. Seeing her tears propels Darcy into action and hopefully redeem himself in her eyes.
The last thing Darcy wants to do is to deal with Wickham again. Once the couple is found, he exposes Wickham’s bluff and actually makes him marry Lydia. Elizabeth’s happiness, willing her good is his goal, the personal and financial sacrifice is worth it even though he has no idea yet if she will ever reciprocate his love. This is chivalry at its best evocative of a fairy tale. But is it unrealistic, as fairy tales are often interpreted in our dis-entchanted age? Darcy has done his part. Should Elizabeth still scorn him, he will know there is nothing further he can do. It will be a painful but necessary lesson what his pride has cost him.
Now it is Elizabeth’s time to reciprocate. Is she capable of returning his love, is she able to will his good? Honed and shaped by her own journey to conquer her prejudice and the unjust way she treated him she is already eager to proof to him she is worthy of his love. She also has now a much better understanding of what he sacrificed for her. Not for her family, as she erroneously thinks at first, but for her. How do you repay such a selfless gift? The answer is agape, to love the other as other, to be open to forgiveness and grace.
"We will not quarrel for the greater share of blame annexed to that evening," said Elizabeth. "The conduct of neither, if strictly examined, will be irreproachable; but since then, we have both, I hope, improved in civility."
Mr. Darcy’s ongoing popularity isn’t because he got the girl, or the girl got him, but that his sacrifice and the risk he took is validated, honored, and cherished by his beloved Elizabeth.
In the comedy of Jane Austen, happy endings don’t just happen ex nihilo, out of nothing, or because we like them, they are hard work, and they only satisfy if they are reciprocal.
Kerstin wrote: "Jane Austen created one of the most memorable couples in Elizabeth Bennet and Fitzwilliam Darcy in all of literature. The character of Mr. Darcy, especially, has made an enormous impact on the romantic imagination ever since he was created. Why?"I think it's also because he stands up to his friends and family to marry the girl he loves. At least that's the part of the character that is held up in modern adaptations. Consider Mark Darcy in Bridget Jones' Diary consistently noticing and defending Bridget in the seas of snooty rich people he's always surrounded by.
Kerstin wrote: "Jane Austen created one of the most memorable couples in Elizabeth Bennet and Fitzwilliam Darcy in all of literature. The character of Mr. Darcy, especially, has made an enormous impact on the roma..."Great post, Kerstin! You make a strong case.
Kerstin wrote: "....a great example within the Western tradition, a worthy daughter of Penelope...."I love those words, Kerstin, whether or not I totally agree.
Now you have me pondering: 1) other female characters w/i the "Western Tradition." 2) Is there any character I might choose other than Penelope for making the comparison across Western history? (Certainly Margaret Atwood helps make the case for Penelope in her The Penelopiad.)
To me, it is easy to see why women and girls like this tale. And why it is "a good one" for them. But if I were teaching it to a high school class in the USA today, how/could I make it "comfortable" (or appropriately uncomfortable) for the young men in the class? (What boy needs to feel he must be a handsome, wealthy aristocrat to attract a romance? Can those attributes be disentangled from those of kindness and decency for the purposes of teaching? I hear enough male voices descrying this tale to be wary.)PS Kerstin suggests one approach @25?
Lily wrote: "To me, it is easy to see why women and girls like this tale. And why it is "a good one" for them. But if I were teaching it to a high school class in the USA today, how/could I make it "comfortable..."Darcy realises that his behaviour is unattractive to everyone around him, makes an effort, sees the value in others, and finds a person he wants to be worthy of?
Bingley learns to rely on what his own heart is saying to him, not just what his friends say?
Mr Bennet is a fairly positive father figure with a good relationship with his teenage daughters?
This strip has a recurring format for assigning funny alternate meanings to words. However, the better joke is often in the newspaper headlines.
Unfortunately the attribution of this quote to Voltaire is suspect because finding a reliable citation is proving to be a difficult task.
Is Mary the “holy fool” in the novel?I asked myself this question, since despite the fact that she is silly, embarrassing, and immature at times, there are two occasions when her seemingly random commentary is straight to the point. It seems to me Jane Austen used her character to pass on specific details she wanted the reader to keep in mind.
In Chapter 5 after the Maryton Ball, Elizabeth and Charlotte discuss Mr. Darcy’s pride, when Mary explains how pride manifests itself and contrasts it to vanity.
"Pride," observed Mary, who piqued herself upon the solidity of her reflections, "is a very common failing, I believe. By all that I have ever read, I am convinced that it is very common indeed; that human nature is particularly prone to it, and that there are very few of us who do not cherish a feeling of self-complacency on the score of some quality or other, real or imaginary. Vanity and pride are different things, though the words are often used synonymously. A person may be proud without being vain. Pride relates more to our opinion of ourselves, vanity to what we would have others think of us."
In Chapter 47 when the Bennet girls still await news on the whereabouts of Lydia she instructs on the value of a woman’s reputation:
Mary, she was mistress enough of herself to whisper to Elizabeth, with a countenance of grave reflection, soon after they were seated at table: "This is a most unfortunate affair, and will probably be much talked of. But we must stem the tide of malice, and pour into the wounded bosoms of each other the balm of sisterly consolation." Then, perceiving in Elizabeth no inclination of replying, she added, "Unhappy as the event must be for Lydia, we may draw from it this useful lesson: that loss of virtue in a female is irretrievable; that one false step involves her in endless ruin; that her reputation is no less brittle than it is beautiful; and that she cannot be too much guarded in her behaviour towards the undeserving of the other sex." Elizabeth lifted up her eyes in amazement, but was too much oppressed to make any reply. Mary, however, continued to console herself with such kind of moral extractions from the evil before them.
David wrote: "This strip has a recurring format for assigning funny alternate meanings to words. However, the better joke is often in the newspaper headlines.Unfortunately the attribution of this quote to Vol..."
LOL!
As of this reading, the character that surprised me the most is Jane. She is probably the most feminine of all the characters and a graceful lady in the truest sense of the word. When I think of Jane I think of charity. Kind to everyone, she has very little prejudice and allows for the benefit of the doubt. She may be too trusting at times, but she is no Pollyanna (with my apologies to Pollyanna, she is only 8 years old). Jane may need more evidence or time to allow that things are going in the wrong direction or of a person’s questionable character, but she does have her limits. What impresses me the most about her is her inner strength. Beneath the soft feminine exterior is a woman of real strength. When Bingley abandons her without a word, she doesn’t melt into hysterics, she doesn’t sequester herself to her room, she is no drama queen. She suffers quietly and will not let her pain spill onto others. She doesn't play the victim. In the end she can’t hide she still loves Bingley no matter how hard she tries to be above things, but then she is gracefully spared further battles. There is much to be admired here.
It's been over a decade since I last read P&P. The character that stood out the most for me with this reading is Mary. I surprised myself by how much I feel for her. I think she is trying so hard to impress others and to get them to notice her. But she is constantly overlooked or ignored. I think even the narrator gives her a flippant dismissal at the end of the novel. I think I've been guilty of overlooking her in my previous readings of the novel. But she stood out for me this time around. I have no idea why. Maybe it's because I can relate very strongly for her need to bury herself in books. She deserves more attention than she gets from her family.
To me ‘Pride and Prejudice’ is ultimately a novel about the application of good judgment. Dovetailing with my comment in message 25, the main protagonists, Elizabeth and Darcy, learn very unflattering characteristics about themselves which exposes whether they truly know themselves. Instead of dismissing these criticisms as Lydia would have done, they are challenged to grow in virtue. From the beginning Elizabeth values a person’s good character, and if a person is lacking she doesn’t have high regard. Similarly, Darcy doesn’t hold anyone in high regard if the person’s good opinion has been lost. Now both are faced with flaws they would not excuse in others.
Though largely off the page, Elizabeth’s challenge to Darcy “had you behaved in a more gentleman-like manner” brings him face-to-face with his pride. Elizabeth’s struggle is given us in full view. Her prejudice against Darcy was increased by Wickham and it took quite some time before she came out from under that shadow. Both of them are humbled, and because they are capable of humility are thereby able to learn their lessons and grow in character. Another aspect that works towards their eventual happy ending is the willingness to follow truth. They are able to look at new information in a rational manner and apply critical thinking. Once the hindering baggage is shed they are truly free to surrender their hearts unencumbered, “to be the happiest couple in the world.”
Jane Austen is refreshingly unsentimental. It is a theme in all of her novels, the characters who have a rational approach in choosing their spouses will end up being happy, and the ones who let their emotions or snap decisions rule the day are destined for unhappiness in one form or another. I have a feeling she was skeptical of “love at first sight.”
Kerstin wrote: "To me ‘Pride and Prejudice’ is ultimately a novel about the application of good judgment..... "Which is so fascinating because it brings so strongly to the fore questions about the role of judgement in human behavior. I was listening to a piece on mindfulness this morning. It talked about creating awareness of presence, of time, and of judgment -- calling to attention an awareness of the continuous flow of judgments a human (mind) makes. I would posit that Jane Austin recognized that both prejudice and pride flow from (sometimes misplaced? sometimes inaccurate) judgements, as necessary and integral to human nature as judgements are. (Just try suspending them for a period of time.)
This may be somewhat of a non-sequitur here, but my niece had this FB posting this weekend: "Our job is to love others without stopping to inquire whether or not they are worthy. That is not our business, in fact it is nobody's business. What we are asked to do is to love and this love itself will render both ourselves and our neighbors worthy." -- Thomas Merton
I have long held that a moral admonition to love may be easier to develop than any admonition to not judge. Our very existence seems to depend on a constant stream of judging? And sometimes the closer the congruence with our own lives, the more subtle and cutting (and to a point?) may be the judgments? Versus if seen as "other", the judgments become ones of wonderment, even dismay. (The back of my head is contrasting P&P with Demons once again, maybe a Norman Rockwell pre-Covid Sunday dinner at grandmothers with a Proud Boys conclave.....)
I think Austen picked a good time in the life of her characters to talk about pride and prejudice. Nobody feels as wrongly judged as they are when they are young and dating. I am glad I do not have to go through that again.
Since our discussion is winding down, I just want to say thank you to those who participated in this lively, vigorous discussion. I thoroughly enjoyed it. It never ceases to amaze me how much more I get out of a novel when I read it with this group. The discussions helped me to see subtleties and nuances I had overlooked in previous readings of the novel and spurred me to engage in a more in-depth exploration of the characters. A special thank you to Kerstin for moderating the discussion. Her comments and insights led me to explore the novel in new and interesting ways, leading me to develop a greater appreciation for the novel and for Jane Austen as a novelist.
Speaking of rush judgment... “She is tolerable; but not handsome enough to tempt me.”
Those are the first words uttered by Darcy in regard to Elisabeth. Funny enough, this is more or less what I thought of "Pride and Prejudice" after reading a few chapters ten years ago. I discarded it and haven't touched it until now.
It was with great reluctance that I picked up the novel for this group read: " it might be boring and shallow, but at least I'll have an interesting depiction of the Regency period"
I still don't know exactly how and when this book got my interest but after around 200 pages I knew that P&P is anything but "boring and shallow". Needless to say, I ended up loving this novel and reading the chunk allocated to the last two weeks in one sitting.
Ms. Austen, I owe you an apology.
I have to join Emil in his acknowledgment above. For a book where at no time did any of the characters run away in slow motion from a huge explosion, P&P was a much more rewarding read than I originally thought possible. Is that an example of a prejudice being overturned, or what?And thank you for a great job moderating this one Kerstin.
Thank you Tamara and David for the kind words. It warms my heart. It was a pleasure and an honor to guest moderate here. The folks here in this group have always impressed me. The level of discussion is so enriching. I also like the philosophy that we should simply dive in and read the classics and see how they resonate within our own hearts without being encumbered by "experts". So in that vein I am glad we got to give Jane Austen a closer look and let her speak for herself.
Susanna wrote: "Yes, I was getting at this when I asked who the narrator is. Is Mary Jane Austen? It would make sense that Austen was bookish in real life."Oh, what an intriguing thought!
I'm so sorry I missed the end of this discussion! The thread was buried, and I kept wondering where it was!My thanks to Kerstin, too, especially for the brilliant commentary @25.
I found the ending a bit abrupt as Mike did, but I think it was because I didn't realize there was commentary at the end, so in my mind, I had another 50 pages or so to go! Then I thought about how romantic comedies work. The entire plot is about *getting there* and the *arrival* (the marriage) always happens in the very end. I noted that Austen didn't bother giving us an actual scene for any of the weddings, whereas today's romantic comedies (I'm thinking really of movies here) never neglect to reward us in the end with a big wedding scene. I also got to wondering whether it was Austen who wrote the script for the romantic comedies that have followed, in terms of the pacing of the plot, which begins with utter distaste or discord between the eventual lovers, has some kind of twist (Lydia's elopement) halfway through, employs misunderstandings (Bingley doesn't know Jane is in London and ELizabeth is misled by Wickham) and eventually builds toward the marriages at the very end. But then maybe that honor goes to Shakespeare and Austen was just following his lead. In any case, the arc of the story remains very familiar today!
Gossip outstrips actual events, and Lady Catherine makes a surprise visit Longbourn to talk Elizabeth out of marrying Darcy, for he is to marry her daughter – promised when they were babies. It catches Elizabeth quite by surprise, but she stands her ground and makes no promises. The event prays very much on her mind when her father shows her a letter from Mr. Collins containing the same message, not to marry Mr. Darcy. Mr. Bennet is surprised and very much amused, Elizabeth, not having shared all that had transpired over the months between her and Mr. Darcy, cannot share his sentiment.
After much anticipation by Elizabeth, Mr. Darcy returns to Longbourn and the two finally get their opportunity for some privacy. Their hearts meet and they get engaged, all previous obstacles have been overcome. Mr. Bennet, upon hearing the news, initially wonders if Elizabeth is in her right mind, and Mrs. Bennet after being much astonished herself, turns on a dime – as she always does – and begins to sing Mr. Darcy’s praises.
The rest of the book is the tying up of ends. The Darcys settle in at Pemberley and Mr. Bennet is a frequent guest. The Bingleys, having their patience tested too much by Mrs. Bennet and the Meryton in-laws, buy an estate close to Pemberley. The Wickhams muddle on, mooching as much as they can.