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Buddy read of David Copperfield May 2021 onwards with Cozy_Pug, Sue, Bridget, Fiona and Jenny
I got a bit behind in my reading the last couple days. All caught up now. Great comments everyone!Lori, I wondered too about Mr. Wickfield's objections to the Annie/Agnes friendship. Maybe Wickfield sees Annie as a liar (in her marriage vows to Dr. Strong) and possibly an adulterer with Jack. And he doesn't want Agnes influenced by her. Then again maybe its that Annie has chosen a better life for herself by marrying Dr. Strong, while still keeping her lover (Jack) close by. That's a very independent sort of thing for a young woman to do. And deep down I think Wickfield's greatest fear is Agnes developing any ideas of independence.
I agree with everyone's comments about how Davy is both astute and ignorant in his observations. That seems about right for a 17yo. At least he's improving a bit and not being taken advantage of all the time anymore.
Steerforth is a really interesting character. I kind of want to love him and hate him at the same time. I loved Davy's description of Steerforth's bedroom it was a picture of comfort, doesn't that just describe how effortless life is for Steerforth?
I thought it was very interesting that Steerforth compared himself to Lily of the Valley. So I looked up Victorian era flower language (flowers had a secret meaning for Victorians). Daisies were thought of as innocence (perfect for Davy). Daisies are also very common, almost like a weed.
Lily of the Valley was thought of as "as return to happiness" or "rebirth". There are many biblical references to Lily of the Valley, and it is sometimes thought of as a symbol for the second coming of Christ. Now that fits really well with how Steerforth sees himself!!
David’s naïveté is going to have a real comeuppance I fear. He doesn’t want to take any of Steerforth’s snobbery as a true indication of his actual feelings or beliefs. But eventually he may be forced to reconsider. Then he will have to reconsider his own place in the world too since he has introduced Steerforth to others as his good friend.
Chapter 21 Two very touching scenes in this chapter: David surprising Peggotty and his reunion with the rest of her family. There is a lot happening beneath the surface though, isn’t there? We learn a lot about Emily from Mr Omer, even though he speaks in her defence, and her body language and behaviour when she should be overjoyed at her engagement are very telling. Steercroft is a slithery, untrustworthy creature and I feel certain he will make a play for Emily and break Ham’s heart.
Lori - I agree that those words are ominous. David must eventually see Steerforth for what he is.Bridget - that’s interesting to look at the meaning of flowers. I wouldn’t have thought of that.
It’s also interesting that we are being told about events both as David saw them at the time and also as he sees them now, in later years.
Mod
The quotation you pulled out was excellent Lori :) Everyone is picking up on lots of the subtext ... in fact there are at least 3 distinct perspectives in this book.
Mod
Thank you Jean. It is so helpful for me to be reminded!
Mod
I was really struck by the last lines of Chapter 21. Steerforth stops walking and looks at Davy and says "Daisy, I believe you are in earnest, and are good. I wish we all were!" It seems that Steerforth has enough self awareness to know he is not a good guy. Sometimes I wish we had other characters narrating for awhile. For instance, I would love to know what Peggotty and Mr. Barkis really think of Steerforth. We only know what Davy tells us "I sincerely believe she had a kind of adoration for him before he left the house that night" Maybe she did....Davy is so entwined in his own adoration of Steerforth, he can't judge how others percieve him.
And how about the foreshadowing
"if anyone had told me, then, that all this [Steerforth's behavior] was a brilliant game .... in the thoughtless love of superiority...of winning what was worthless to him, and next minute thrown away...my indignation would have found vent"
Can't wait to find out what that means!
Bridget YES on "I wish we all were!!" Why doesn't David pick up on that (maybe he will later but I would have sirens going off if I heard that).
Bridget, that would certainly be interesting to know the other characters actual thoughts in this case. That quote is one that stood out to me as well. There is something foreboding coming and we will have to wait to see what that is.
Great comments from this chapter!
Chapter 22 Steerforth begins to seem a forlorn, anguished creature. Reading between the lines, he is probably wooing Emily and knows it is very wrong of him but he can’t help himself. Blaming it on not having a strong father figure is a pathetic attempt at avoiding responsibility for his own actions. Emily appears to be in anguish as well and likely for the same reason. If it has brought her to realise what a good man and good husband Ham will be, that’s great but has it?The Miss Mowcher episode is bizarre but she’s obviously there to help Steerforth, given the careful way he gave her details about Emily. I’m not sure what she can do to help him but no doubt we’re about to find out.
I’m enjoying the slow build up to whatever the denouement will be. I suspect it will be very sad, if not tragic.
Mod
I'll put a little here about James Steerforth.
Now we see why he is named "Steer Forth", as he has developed his nautical skills.
The boat is originally called the "Stormy Petrel" but is re-named the "Little Em'ly". A petrel is one of the smallest of seabirds, and only comes to land to mate. It seems significant that the new name for the boat is "Little Em'ly. There's more to the stories and myths about the petrel ... but it's bit spoilerish. We do know, though that Steerforth owns the boat, the "Little Em'ly".
Also, when David is thinking how well matched Ham and Em'ly are did you notice Em'ly's behaviour?
"She withdrew her hand timidly from [Ham's] arm as we stopped to speak to them, and blushed as she gave it to Steerforth and to me. When they passed on, after we had exchanged a few words, she did not like to replace that hand".
Why?
As Fiona says, Steerforth himself seems to have self-doubt - a little like Macbeth - and this certainly serves to humanise him a bit more.
Jean, love the parallel with Macbeth! Though I can't see lil Em'ly acting like Lady Macbeth intentionally, but the not wanting to give her hand back to Ham... Now you have my brain whirling away LOL!
Fiona, I really liked what you said about Steerforth using his lack of a father as an excuse and I agree it is not a valid excuse. David also has never had a father, and his moral compass remains intact (a little too intact sometimes).And I'm with you Jenny, on the MacBeth allusions making my head spin too. Thanks for drawing our attention to that Jean. I'm gonna have to have a long think about that!
Jean - thanks for the link re the real Miss Mowcher. How very hurtful for her to be caricatured in this way, down to her favourite saying, and how impossible for Dickens to deny Miss Mowcher was based on her. Bridget - I hadn’t thought through the connection but of course! David had no father figure either. Your comment re his moral compass made me smile :)
I just thought of who Steerforth reminds me of....have any of you seen "Into the Woods"? If you have, do you remember the line by Prince Charming (after he is caught kissing the Baker's wife) "I was born to by charming, not sincere". That's Steerforth!(Glad I made you smile Fiona :-)
Chapter 23 Littimer staying behind in Yarmouth feels ominous - He knows what he has to do, and he’ll do it, says Steerforth.I’m delighted that Aunt Betsey is in London to meet David. She’s just hilarious! ...she had taken lodgings for a week...where there was a stone staircase, and a convenient door in the roof; my aunt being firmly persuaded that every house in London was going to be burnt down every night. Her distrust of the meat served at supper is possibly not misplaced - at that time ;) It would be no pleasure to a London tradesman to sell anything which was what he pretended it was.
David’s apprenticeship to Spenlow and Jorkins means he can enter a profession in a few years, although it doesn’t seem as if money will be much of an object since he is Aunt Betsey’s sole heir - or is he? Who is the man she’s being blackmailed by and why is he doing it?
I’m mystified by the description of Mr Spenlow - a light-haired gentleman, with undeniable boots. What on earth are undeniable boots? Jean? Anyone?
Mod
It's a fabulous description, isn't it? Shoes, boots and footsteps are always important in Charles Dickens. They are symbolic and usually indicate a deeper meaning. So what do you think? These are evidently boots of great character. Perhaps it indicated that the boots were wearing Mr. Spenlow, and that he is all appearance? Does he have much presence?
It might be as well to note that he kept referring to a "Mr. Jorkins", whenever there was a difficult question. On David's tentative request as to whether he could be paid a little, at some point, if he worked very industriously, Mr. Spenlow talked of Mr. Jorkins, whom he made out to be a very fierce, strict individual. Everything that was suggested, Mr. Spenlow would be happy to oblige, but said that Mr. Jorkins would not approve.
But he's obviously stylish, and David likes that :) This is also the reason he so admires Steerforth's charm and confidence. David at this point is very impressionable. In fact the more he sees of "Doctor's Commons", the more "increasingly complacent" he becomes. It makes him feel very grown up.
Mod
Several have noticed that David doesn't seem to be able to see through his manner, and this is partly because Steerforth has charisma, and partly David's wish for an older male model. Steerforth doesn't seem to be based on a real person (unlike so many in this novel! So far we have Uriah Heep, Mr Micawber, Mrs. Micawber, Aunt Betsey, Mr. Dick, Miss Mowcher - who are all based on real individuals!) although in Steerforth there are definitely echoes of other "heroic" (and unheroic, "bad boy") characters.
Charles Dickens has perfectly captured the influence a charismatic person of this type has over everyone he meets. If anything, Steerforth is more honest when he talks to his "Daisy" than to anyone else. Several are picking up these revealing asides too :) Rosa Dartle knows him for what he is, but nobody else sees the facade.
The other thought I have is that he is another side of Charles Dickens himself. Do you remember at one point Steerforth:
"became gay and talkative in a moment, as he could become anything he liked at any moment",
He's a chameleon, a Janus, an actor. Everything about him is an illusion.
Charles Dickens too was full of charm and wit, and presented many faces depending on the circumstances, or who he was talking to. He too probably suffered the same sort of momentary doubts over whether he was being moral or ethical.
Steerforth excused himself because he had no father. Charles Dickens did have a father - but what a father! For most of his life, Charles Dickens behaved as if he were the parent; providing for them both, and making their decisions.
I like that thought Jean! Steerforth as the bad side of Dickens and Davey as the good, or even them as the wordly and naive sides of him work quite well!
Jean - I love the idea of the boots wearing Mr Spenlow! I suspect they were very stylish, unusual boots but I can’t imagine what they would have looked like.As for the mysterious Mr Jorkins, I have worked somewhere like that. ‘I would do it you know but Mr X........’. Great avoidance technique. ‘I’ll speak to him then.’ ‘Oh, I wouldn’t, if I were you’. And on and on!
Does Littimer remind anyone else of a Litmus Test? I looked it up and the litmus test has been around since the 14th century, so Dickens would have known about it. Is this another one of Dicken's puns?
Mod
In Chapter 23, I was happy to see David using discretion and deciding not to tell Steerforth about Emily's reaction after helping Martha. Shows maturity on David's part -- he's not always naive.I noticed too, on the ride to London, Steerforth is unusually silent and then after awhile asked "Find a voice, David" which I took to mean Steerforth wanted to be distracted from his thoughts. It reminded me of all the nights at "Salem House" where Steerforth kept Davy up telling him stories - was Steerforth unable to sleep because his conscience kept him up? For all his shallowness, is Steerforth often plagued by bouts of conscience? Like when Davy finds him alone at the Peggotty boathouse staring into the fire. He's more complex than his "making light of everything" indicates.
I also liked how Steerforth described the Proctors as "actors"
They are like actors: now one man's a judge, and now he is not a judge ..... but it's always a very pleasant profitable little affair of private theatricals, presented to an uncommonly select audience"
I know Charles Dickens loved the theater, but I don't think this is a complimentary view of some legal professionals. But I could be wrong about that.
Fiona wrote: "Jean - I love the idea of the boots wearing Mr Spenlow! I suspect they were very stylish, unusual boots but I can’t imagine what they would have looked like.As for the mysterious Mr Jorkins, I ha..."
I've worked at places like that too! Also, I'm often tempted to use the "principle of Spenlow and Jorkins" on my kids by saying, "I'd let you go to the concert, but your father said no" -- but I don't have the heart to blemish my husband like that :-)
I thought of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde as I was reading about Spenlow and Jorkins - so I half expected Mr. Jorkins to not be a real person.
Catching up here - Chapter 22 -
A quote in reference to Steerforth - I had no idea how he employed his time in the interval, beyond a general knowledge that he was very popular in the place, and had twenty means of actively diverting himself where another man might not have found one
We really don't know what Steerforth has been up to while David is in Blunderstone and David also is sleeping at Peggotty's and goes to bed much earlier than Steerforth. We can speculate anything but has be been seeking out time with Emily as has already been mentioned. Emily's behavior is also questionable as to whey she's acting so timid.
Littimer's comment to David could refer to him being naive - You are very young sir; you are exceedingly young.
Miss Mowcher is certainly an odd character. Dickens will have a purpose for her but that's not clear what it could be yet.
And then I noticed Steerforth talking about Emily and telling Mowcher about her he says she's the prettiest and most engaging little fairy in the world.......I am sure she might do better (referring to Ham); and that I swear she was born to be a lady
Emily's own desire since she was a child. I find it quite interesting that she's still referred to as Little Emily when she's a grown young lady now.
Chapter 23I am loving some Aunt Betsey here!! She is so funny and has such quirky eccentricities. Fearing a fire because she's in London and not being able to stop worrying about the donkeys at home while she's gone.
And then the odd man who was following that she clearly paid must have a connection to Mr. Dick's thinking someone watching Aunt Betsey. David hears of her past for the very first time. Could it be her husband? Is he still alive? Looking forward to figuring out that mystery!
And the mystery of Littimer - what ominous task is he doing?
Bridget wrote: "In Chapter 23, I was happy to see David using discretion and deciding not to tell Steerforth about Emily's reaction after helping Martha. Shows maturity on David's part -- he's not always naive.I..."
Maybe a sign that David is maturing here? Great insight Bridget.
And your thoughts on Steerforth's inwardness here seems to suggest that he's possibly conflicted about something he may have done. But we don't really know what or if he has done anything wrong.
Littimer’s dealing with the new boat has me wondering. Is it really to be given to the captain? I was wondering if it might be a payoff for something Steerforth plans to do. Obviously I’ve been bit by the conspiracy bug, but Steerforth’s odd ramblings and Emily’s cries about her lack of worth after meeting with Martha do make me concerned about both. And we still have David’s comment from a few chapters back where he stated that he was going to be surprised in a bad way by Steerforth’s behavior.
Bridget wrote: "In Chapter 23, I was happy to see David using discretion and deciding not to tell Steerforth about Emily's reaction after helping Martha. Shows maturity on David's part -- he's not always naive.I..."
Bridget - interesting thoughts. Steerforth seems to be a very complex fellow rather than the shallow one he likes to portray himself as. More acting.
Lori wrote: "Catching up here - Chapter 22 -
A quote in reference to Steerforth - I had no idea how he employed his time in the interval, beyond a general knowledge that he was very popular in the place, an..."
All the references to Emily’s perceived ambition to be a lady and Steerforth’s comment are ominous but he could never marry someone of such lowly birth, I’m sure. Having said that, David’s father did but I don’t think he came from quite the same background as Steerforth.
Chapter 24 David quickly feels lonely in his new apartment. It’s unfortunate for him that Steerforth appears on the scene to lead him astray. More unfortunate still that he should meet Agnes in his drunken state. What is she doing in London, I wonder?IMO, this chapter is a masterpiece! The dry humour with which Dickens describes what happens is just brilliant!
Mod
No you are spot on Bridget! As are all these recent speculations :) Charles Dickens took a very dim view of lawyers and Chancery, and was critical of them in most of his books. Bleak House, which we will be reading in a few months' time, is a savage indictment of the system.
Mod
Fiona has started today off (thanks!) with chapter 24, which finishes installment 8. Please note that tomorrow there is no new chapter, so there is time to catch up, carry on discussing here or investigating the information and comments in the original group read.
(eg. Lori - "Dickens will have a purpose for [Miss Mowcher]". He certainly did, but had to change his plan midway through this novel, as the real life person he based her on threatened a lawsuit!) There are lots of other snippets there too, and safe to look at as they are without spoilers if you use the links :)
Installment 9 starts on Friday with Chapter 25.
This chapter had me laughing out loud! Except for DC running into Agnes. Whoops. Most unfortunate.
Thanks, Jean for the info on Miss Mowcher. She's quite an odd character, isn't she? I would think readers would have recognized the real person if she was quite known and that could have upset her to be used this way by Dickens. I don't think he meant any harm.It seems Dickens is trying to show discrimination against disabled persons as we also have Mr. Dick who would fit into this category. We know Dickens was interested in promoting different issues regarding the treatment of different groups of people.
This was a very great chapter with so much humor. Poor David, bad timing meeting Agnes in his state for sure. He'll never hopefully get himself into this situation again after seeing her and knowing how disappointed she was seeing him, especially after her father's drinking.
Lori wrote: "Thanks, Jean for the info on Miss Mowcher. She's quite an odd character, isn't she? I would think readers would have recognized the real person if she was quite known and that could have upset her ..."I thought that too Lori, poor Agnes. She's got enough problems with her alcoholic father.
David's drunkenness is another example of his lack of confidence.
He had three older boys to dinner and he felt inadequate so he tried to keep up with them. It did seem like Steerforth was looking out for Davy "You are alright Copperfield, are you not?" I mean I know he didn't stop Davy from getting very drunk, but at least he got him home safely.
Angela, I laughed at this chapter too! The girl putting the plates on the floor and then stepping on them was hilarious.
Bridget wrote: "Lori wrote: "Thanks, Jean for the info on Miss Mowcher. She's quite an odd character, isn't she? I would think readers would have recognized the real person if she was quite known and that could ha..."I’m not sure Steerforth looks out for David really, Bridget. He’s just there for his amusement. Taking him home was certainly the decent thing to do but I don’t know that he really cares about David at all. He’s definitely going to disappoint him somewhere along the way.
Yes, Bridget it was nice to see Steerforth having some idea of helpfulness with David - I'm sure he realized this was a first time thing for him and knew he shouldn't abandon him. But, who knows about what Steerforth's motives are really. I'm sure he's been in this state before and like you said, got David home safely.Did anyone else notice the pronoun Dickens chose to use in reference to David's drunken state? He kept referring to Somebody did this and that but it was David most of the time and other times the other boys. I thought that added such an authenticity to how David was feeling because he was so intoxicated that he really didn't know it was himself doing most of these things but he knew Somebody was smoking, falling down, leaning out the bedroom window, etc.
Yes Steerforth saw David home at the end of the night, but he certainly didn’t help him during the evening when everything was getting out of hand. Steerforth is older, more experienced and likely would have expected that David had never had an evening like this before. Instead of any kind advice, which no doubt David would have accepted, he enjoyed himself to the hilt along with his friends helping only by picking David up when he fell.
Sue wrote: "Yes Steerforth saw David home at the end of the night, but he certainly didn’t help him during the evening when everything was getting out of hand. Steerforth is older, more experienced and likely ..."Spot on, Sue!
I don't disagree with you Sue and Fiona. I'm not trying to defend Steerforth, who I agree is completely self centered. I do think he's complex though. I was surprised he didn't make fun of Davy while he was drunk. Or try to abandon him and just take off with his other friends. It seemed to me he was sincere in taking care of David that night, though he certainly could have stopped David from getting drunk. The flaw in Steerforth is that he cares about David, but cares more about himself and having a good time.
Lori wrote: "Did anyone else notice the pronoun Dickens chose to use in reference to David's drunken state? He kept referring to Somebody did this and that but it was David most of the time and other times the other boys...."I picked up on the "somebody" too Fiona. Wasn't that brilliant writing? I don't think I've ever read a more authentic drunken stupor.
Bridget wrote: "I don't disagree with you Sue and Fiona. I'm not trying to defend Steerforth, who I agree is completely self centered. I do think he's complex though. I was surprised he didn't make fun of Davy whi..."He’s certainly complex, Bridget, and I was also surprised that he didn’t make fun of David. On the other hand, do we know he didn’t? David’s recollection of events is somewhat hazy. Wasn’t it Steerforth who took him to Agnes? A friend would have steered him clear (no pun intended!).
Fiona wrote: "Bridget wrote: "I don't disagree with you Sue and Fiona. I'm not trying to defend Steerforth, who I agree is completely self centered. I do think he's complex though. I was surprised he didn't make..."You are probably right Fiona. Like you said its hard to know what Steerforth did or didn't do because its told to us by a drunken David. He's definitely not the great friend David thinks he is!!
I wonder though how would Steerforth know who Agnes is? I don't remember that he visited David in Canterbury so he couldn't have met Agnes. I thought it was all just coincidence that David ended up in her box at the theater. I could be forgetting things though.
Bridget wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Bridget wrote: "I don't disagree with you Sue and Fiona. I'm not trying to defend Steerforth, who I agree is completely self centered. I do think he's complex though. I was surprised ..."I think you’re right, Bridget. I don’t think Steerforth had met Agnes before. David may have spotted her and he encouraged her to go to speak to her? We’ll probably never know.
Mod
What makes you think he does? Look at this part:
"I stepped at once out of the box-door into my bedroom, where only Steerforth was with me, helping me to undress, and where I was by turns telling him that Agnes was my sister, and adjuring him to bring the corkscrew, that I might open another bottle of wine."
Tomorrow's chapter carries straight on with the action, and gives some consequences of this first meeting ...
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
David Copperfield (other topics)A Message from the Sea (other topics)
Bleak House (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
A Message from the Sea (other topics)
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Charles Dickens (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
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Littimer was quite the focus in the beginning of the chapter and the older David says he will play an important role later. Maybe Littimer will help him somehow because he knows the true Steerforth.
This quote stood out to me and seems ominous :
If anyone had told me, then, that all this was a brilliant game, played for the excitement of the moment, for the employment of high spirits, in the thoughtless love of superiority, in a mere wasteful careless course of winning what was worthless to him, and next minute thrown away—I say, if anyone had told me such a lie that night, I wonder in what manner of receiving it my indignation would have found a vent!
Angela, yes, I fear for Emily and wondered why she agreed to marry Ham. We know he’s had a crush on her as much as David has but David hasn’t had the advantage of living there. I don’t see happiness here. And remember the foreshadowing about Emily.