Dickensians! discussion
Buddy Reads
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Buddy read of David Copperfield May 2021 onwards with Cozy_Pug, Sue, Bridget, Fiona and Jenny
Cozy_Pug wrote: "Oh my stars, crying with laughter at Aunt Betsey!! "Janet! Donkeys!":D
It seems like a very random thing Dickens wrote in for comedic purposes, because it's absolutely hysterical. But I'm wonderi..."
I like all your summary too CozyPug!! (though I think the Murdstone's don't arrive until Chapter 14 :-) I do so love all the pictures you provided as well. Those scenes with Aunt Betsy and Janet chasing the donkeys look great in the illustrations. (and yes, I can't wait to see Maggie Smith battling donkeys either!).
I really like the Mr. Dick character, and how Aunt Betsey treats him with such respect, even though we can tell there is something a little "not normal" about him. I think that bodes well for her helping Davy -- even though he is a boy.
I marveled at how easily Dickens switches tenses in paragraphs like this:
"The room was a neat as Janet or my aunt. As I laid down my pen, a moment since, to think of it, the air from the sea came blowing in again"
The shift is so quick, I almost don't notice it anymore.
But my favorite line that I marked was this one
"I remember how I still sat looking at the moonlight on the water, as if I could hope to read my fortune in it, as a bright book"
made me think of little Paul Dombey and how the water talked to him. Only this time it doesn't portend tragedy.
Lori wrote: "This was a great chapter and one of some relief for David and the reader! CP- I read the original thread and Jean mentions that the donkey incident actually happened to the woman he based Aunt Be..."
I took the "pair of babies" as Clara and Davy. Aunt Betsy sees Clara was a baby herself, and of course she just literally had a baby.
I didn't know Chatham was a happy place for Dickens. Thanks for letting us know that, Lori!!
Bridget wrote: "Lori wrote: "This was a great chapter and one of some relief for David and the reader!
CP- I read the original thread and Jean mentions that the donkey incident actually happened to the woman he ..."
Bridget did I post something from chapter 14 by mistake? I haven't read it yet.
Good point about Aunt Betsey thinking of Clara as a baby, too - that's a good interpretation. I like that!
CP- I read the original thread and Jean mentions that the donkey incident actually happened to the woman he ..."
Bridget did I post something from chapter 14 by mistake? I haven't read it yet.
Good point about Aunt Betsey thinking of Clara as a baby, too - that's a good interpretation. I like that!
Bridget wrote: "Lori wrote: "This was a great chapter and one of some relief for David and the reader! CP- I read the original thread and Jean mentions that the donkey incident actually happened to the woman he ..."
Bridget, that's an excellent interpretation. Davy was the actual baby but yes, she did see Clara as a baby herself, hence two babies.
Thanks for helping to clear it up for me!
Mod
In chapter 1 she had also commented on how immature both Clara and David (the father) were when they married.
LINK HERE to the post about the real life Betsey Trotwood and her house, (thanks for looking Lori!) which is now a museum about Charles Dickens.
The previous post includes a map which shows just how far David walked. London is just off to the left, and Dover is on the coast, far right. It is about 76 miles.
Bionic Jean wrote: ""there were a pair of babies when she gave birth to this child sitting here," Yes, as Bridget says, Aunt Betsey is referring to Clara and her baby, Davy (a disappointment for not being a girl).
In..."
Jean that map was a brilliant thing to post! It puts the journey into perspective - such a long way for a small boy with so few provisions! :(
In..."
Jean that map was a brilliant thing to post! It puts the journey into perspective - such a long way for a small boy with so few provisions! :(
Cozy_Pug wrote: "Bridget wrote: "Lori wrote: "This was a great chapter and one of some relief for David and the reader! CP- I read the original thread and Jean mentions that the donkey incident actually happened ..."
I'm probably mistaken CP, I thought you were talking about Aunt Betsy's conversation with the Murdstones which in my book happens in Chapter 14. I've just read it, its a great chapter!!
Bionic Jean wrote: ""there were a pair of babies when she gave birth to this child sitting here," Yes, as Bridget says, Aunt Betsey is referring to Clara and her baby, Davy (a disappointment for not being a girl).In..."
I just read through the original post, and I got a lot out of the whole thing, but the map was particularly helpful. What a long journey on foot!
Bridget wrote: "Cozy_Pug wrote: "Bridget wrote: "Lori wrote: "This was a great chapter and one of some relief for David and the reader!
CP- I read the original thread and Jean mentions that the donkey incident a..."
Ok, I was confused lol! I was referring to what Aunt Betsey remarked in chapter 13 as David was telling her about Clara's second message. Thinking his name was Murder or something like it :D. She cracks me up - I'm definitely an Aunt Betsey fan! Can't wait to read the next chapter, see how she handles the Murdstones!
CP- I read the original thread and Jean mentions that the donkey incident a..."
Ok, I was confused lol! I was referring to what Aunt Betsey remarked in chapter 13 as David was telling her about Clara's second message. Thinking his name was Murder or something like it :D. She cracks me up - I'm definitely an Aunt Betsey fan! Can't wait to read the next chapter, see how she handles the Murdstones!
My interpretation of the “two babies” was that the first was Davy, unfortunately born a boy, and that there was a second child, never born but should have been, who Aunt Betsy also imagines in this chapter that she would have brought home to raise herself. Her denial of the doctor’s report of the baby’s gender seems to have lived on .
Mod
Sue, yes there is an imaginary girl, which dates back to the first chapter, but it constantly gets mixed up in her mind with the real David. The second "baby" she refers to here however, was Clara. She considered all three innocents in the well-named "Blunderstone" Rookery to be naive "babies", in the ways of the world. It's one of the themes she harps on. The other is how much better the world would be if it were run by women.
Jean, who was she referring to raising in her own home, the female child that wasn’t born?
Mod
Sorry if this wasn't clear everybody. I was posting after midnight. Now it's the next morning, so I've been able to find the relevant part of the text to quote:
In chapter 13 Aunt Betsey says:
"His sister, Betsey Trotwood, never would have run away.’ My aunt shook her head firmly, confident in the character and behaviour of the girl who never was born." (i.e. imaginary)
‘Oh! you think she wouldn’t have run away?’ said Mr. Dick.
‘Bless and save the man,’ exclaimed my aunt, sharply, ‘how he talks! Don’t I know she wouldn’t? She would have lived with her god-mother, and we should have been devoted to one another. Where, in the name of wonder, should his sister, Betsey Trotwood, have run from, or to?"
So thinking back again, to when we first met Aunt Betsey, she had arrived at Blunderstone Rookery to help Clara take care of the new baby i.e. (in her mind at this point) "Betsey Copperfield". Aunt Betsey had intended to stay there; she had intended to live there. But the baby was not female, (and so in her mind did not count), so Aunt Betsey disappeared again.
Had history behaved properly, and Clara had a girl baby, Aunt Betsey would be living in Blunderstone Rookery (or somewhere) with Clara. They would be a family, and therefore she would have charge of Betsey/Davy, who would still be living with her when Clara died. This explains the "living with her godmother". She wasn't thinking of taking a child away. She has imagined a whole alternative happy childhood for Betsey/Davy.
The imaginary Betsey rears her head again when David arrives at her cottage. Aunt Betsey has now renamed David "Trotwood". This follows the convention that sons of gentlemen are called by their surname, and also indicates to David that she views him as her adopted son (since she has given him her own surname). Because of this, it follows by Aunt Betsey's logic that his imaginary sister (who should have been him) is also now called "Betsey Trotwood". Phew!
Mod
Chapter 13:
Whatever possessed that poor unfortunate Baby, that she must go and be married again"
"A mighty pleasure for the poor Baby to fix her simple faith upon any dog of a fellow"
"She (Clara) had seen David Copperfield out of the world, who was always running after wax dolls from his cradle."
This shows that Aunt Betsey viewed her nephew, David's father as an innocent too, attracted by a pretty doll for a wife, rather than someone sensible. It carries on:
"She had got a baby—oh, there were a pair of babies when she gave birth to this child sitting here, that Friday night!"
"she gave birth" refers to Clara as the second baby.
Chapter 14: (I think this may be today's chapter)
"Your sister Betsey Trotwood would have told me what she thought of anyone, directly. Be as like your sister as you can, and speak out!"
Now this is almost confabulation. Aunt Betsey knows there was never another baby, but as we saw in chapter 1, hoped and wanted Clara's child so very much to be a girl, that "Betsey" became almost real to her. Although she is not addled like Mr. Dick, Aunt Betsey cannot completely rid herself of the idea that "Betsey" really existed.
Aunt Betsey says to Mr Murdstone:
"Your late wife, sir, was a most unworldly, most unhappy, most unfortunate baby"
"Do you think I don’t know ... what kind of life you must have led that poor, unhappy, misdirected baby?"
"you were a tyrant to the simple baby, and you broke her heart. She was a loving baby"
Aunt Betsey is such a wonderful character! Here we see both her incisive eye and clear judgement. We can also see in this chapter that she has the ability to understand Mr. Dick, rather than to think him a fool. We have Mr. Dick's logic, Aunt Betsey's logic - and our logic!
Don't miss the original for Mr. Dick by the way, in the group read thread. He's a famous - nay infamous - artist!
Chapter 14 Three cheers for Aunt Betsey! How wonderful it was to have Miss Murdstone ignored and Mr Murdstone sent packing with a flea in his ear. The scene with Miss Murdstone arriving on the donkey is priceless too!
Fiona wrote: "Chapter 14 Three cheers for Aunt Betsey! How wonderful it was to have Miss Murdstone ignored and Mr Murdstone sent packing with a flea in his ear. The scene with Miss Murdstone arriving on the donk..."
Wasn't this chapter fantastic?! Everyday I read more about her, I love her even more. She's a strong woman and not afraid to speak her mind or to speak the truth. Thank goodness David (or Trotwood lol!) is living with her now!
What Aunt Betsey says here, about Clara, to Mr Murdstone, is exactly how I feel -
"She was a loving baby—I know that; I knew it, years before you ever saw her—and through the best part of her weakness you gave her the wounds she died of. There is the truth for your comfort, however you like it."
Her parting shot to Miss Murdstone is hysterical -
"Let me see you ride a donkey over my green again, and as sure as you have a head upon your shoulders, I’ll knock your bonnet off, and tread upon it!"
How funny that Miss Murdstone turned up riding a donkey, the thing that Aunt Betsey goes ballistic over! :D
Very interesting information about Mr Dick over in the original DC group read thread - check it out!
The ending of this chapter is another autobiographical bit of Dickens. What David Copperfield writes -
...a curtain had forever fallen on my life at Murdstone and Grinby’s. No one has ever raised that curtain since. I have lifted it for a moment, even in this narrative, with a reluctant hand, and dropped it gladly. The remembrance of that life is fraught with so much pain to me, with so much mental suffering and want of hope, that I have never had the courage even to examine how long I was doomed to lead it. Whether it lasted for a year, or more, or less, I do not know. I only know that it was, and ceased to be; and that I have written, and there I leave it.
What Charles Dickens wrote in his autobiographical fragment, from John Forster's biography of Dickens, Vol. I -
From that hour until this at which I write, no word of that part of my childhood which I have now gladly brought to a close has passed my lips to any human being. I have no idea how long it lasted; whether for a year, or much more, or less. From that hour until this my father and my mother have been stricken dumb upon it. I have never heard the least allusion to it, however far off and remote, from either of them. I have never, until I now impart it to this paper, in any burst of confidence with any one, my own wife not excepted, raised the curtain I then dropped, thank God.
Wasn't this chapter fantastic?! Everyday I read more about her, I love her even more. She's a strong woman and not afraid to speak her mind or to speak the truth. Thank goodness David (or Trotwood lol!) is living with her now!
What Aunt Betsey says here, about Clara, to Mr Murdstone, is exactly how I feel -
"She was a loving baby—I know that; I knew it, years before you ever saw her—and through the best part of her weakness you gave her the wounds she died of. There is the truth for your comfort, however you like it."
Her parting shot to Miss Murdstone is hysterical -
"Let me see you ride a donkey over my green again, and as sure as you have a head upon your shoulders, I’ll knock your bonnet off, and tread upon it!"
How funny that Miss Murdstone turned up riding a donkey, the thing that Aunt Betsey goes ballistic over! :D
Very interesting information about Mr Dick over in the original DC group read thread - check it out!
The ending of this chapter is another autobiographical bit of Dickens. What David Copperfield writes -
...a curtain had forever fallen on my life at Murdstone and Grinby’s. No one has ever raised that curtain since. I have lifted it for a moment, even in this narrative, with a reluctant hand, and dropped it gladly. The remembrance of that life is fraught with so much pain to me, with so much mental suffering and want of hope, that I have never had the courage even to examine how long I was doomed to lead it. Whether it lasted for a year, or more, or less, I do not know. I only know that it was, and ceased to be; and that I have written, and there I leave it.
What Charles Dickens wrote in his autobiographical fragment, from John Forster's biography of Dickens, Vol. I -
From that hour until this at which I write, no word of that part of my childhood which I have now gladly brought to a close has passed my lips to any human being. I have no idea how long it lasted; whether for a year, or much more, or less. From that hour until this my father and my mother have been stricken dumb upon it. I have never heard the least allusion to it, however far off and remote, from either of them. I have never, until I now impart it to this paper, in any burst of confidence with any one, my own wife not excepted, raised the curtain I then dropped, thank God.
Chapter 14 illustration -
"The momentous interview" by Phiz, 1849
I love David in this illustration - it shows that crazy assortment of clothes they wrapped him up in :D
"Miss Trotwood and Mr Dick" (with kite) by Sol Eytinge, Jr, 1867
"The battle on the green" by Fred Barnard, 1870's
(I included this illustration yesterday with chapter 13 because that's the source given on The Victorian Web. But it looks more to me like the scene described today in chapter 14 when the Murdstones arrive. So I'm including it again today.)
"The momentous interview" by Phiz, 1849
I love David in this illustration - it shows that crazy assortment of clothes they wrapped him up in :D
"Miss Trotwood and Mr Dick" (with kite) by Sol Eytinge, Jr, 1867
"The battle on the green" by Fred Barnard, 1870's
(I included this illustration yesterday with chapter 13 because that's the source given on The Victorian Web. But it looks more to me like the scene described today in chapter 14 when the Murdstones arrive. So I'm including it again today.)
In message 2, I added a link to the next section of discussion for the original DC group read. They started a new thread covering chapters 15-29, and we'll read chapter 15 tomorrow.
Isn't it wonderful when you read a chapter in which the characters you most detest get whats coming to them. Aunt Betsy does a marvelous job of "telling off" the Murdstones. Especially the part where she accuses Mr. Murdstone of driving Clara to an early grave, and using Davy as a weapon in that endeavor! I thought it was interesting how right after that the narrator describes Mr. Murdstone like this:"I remarked now, that, though the smile was on his face still, his colour was gone in a moment, and he seemed to breathe as if he had been running"
I think Murdstone knows deep down that what Betsy says is true, and perhaps he even regrets his behavior. That puts more depth into Murdstone than I thought was there.
Jean, thank you for the great summary of the imaginary sister Betsy Trotwood, it does get rather confusing as this imaginary person seems so real to Aunt Betsy.
I'm beginning to like Mr. Dick just as much as Aunt Betsy. Especially when he's asked what to do with Davy and he says
"Have him measured for a suit of clothes directly" thank goodness someone finally thought of that!!
CP Thanks for all the illustrations. So fun to look at them and "see" what I've just read. I especially like the battle of the green by Barnard. Davy looks so small and helpless at the gate with Mr. Dick. Its hard to imagine that he just walked 75miles (120kilometers) all by himself.
Great illustrations, the Phiz one with Davy all bound up in the too big clothes on the edge is so good! The whole chapter was a lot of fun and wonderful that Betsey didn’t believe a word that the Murdstones said about Davy.Mr Dick kind of reminds me of Chance from Being There, how one simple sentence can impart so much more meaning.
Bionic Jean wrote: "What makes this even more superficially complicated is all the references to Clara as a "baby". There are many specific references to Clara as a baby in Aunt Betsey's mind (there are also reference..." I like that, referring to Clara as "baby". It shows her deep affection, even though she had a tough exterior.
Bridget wrote:I think Murdstone knows deep down that what Betsy says is true, and perhaps he even regrets his behavior. That puts more depth into Murdstone than I thought was there."To me, this shows Murdstone's strict training in not showing his emotions, and perhaps breathing hard in order to restrain himself from violence towards Betsy. Men such as he were control freaks, insecure, and prone to abuse towards spouses, family. That's how I see him. The glee he gets from beating a child tells me he's twisted and has a heart of stone.
Cozy_Pug wrote: "Chapter 14 illustration -"The momentous interview" by Phiz, 1849
I love David in this illustration - it shows that crazy assortment of clothes they wrapped him up in :D
"Miss Trotwood and Mr D..."
I like these old illustrations. Thanks for sharing.
I have to think the best part of the interview with the Murdstones was that Davy was present and go to see Betsey in action. I love her heart - taking on Mr. Dick and caring for him for so long. He is going to be a great addition to Davy's life now, I think! I need to read the original thread info about him now.
Jean, thanks for the wonderful explanation of the multiple babies in Aunt Betsey’s conversation (and mind). It helps a lot.I loved this chapter too. I like the way Davy sees the essence of Mr Dick and Mr Dick so easily identifies Davy’s needs. And Aunt Betsey does what both need for security and health and home. They are quite a family.
Fiona wrote: "Chapter 14 Three cheers for Aunt Betsey! How wonderful it was to have Miss Murdstone ignored and Mr Murdstone sent packing with a flea in his ear. The scene with Miss Murdstone arriving on the donk..."It was great to see Aunt Betsey come to David's rescue and give the Murdstones a well-deserved earful.
Chapter 15 So many touching scenes in this chapter. The seemingly irascible Aunt Betsey has quickly grown fond of David and has his best interests at heart, even though it means being parted from him while he is at school. Exciting to meet the infamous Uriah Heep! I look forward now to learning more about the background and history from our very knowledgeable co-readers.
You've said it exactly Fiona, the infamous Uriah Heep. Incredible that I've never read this book, but I know about Uriah Heep. I was surprised we meet him when he's only 15 years old. And those read, eyes with no eyelashes and hardly any eyebrows. Creepy!!I loved the descriptions of Mr. Wickfield's house. I think it must be one of those medieval houses where each upper floor extends over the floor below it, kind of like an upside down three tier wedding cake. That's why it is bulging out over the road. I read somewhere houses were built that way so that people on the upper floors could empty their waste out the window without it landing on the floor below them. Am I picturing that right?
Fiona wrote: "Chapter 15 So many touching scenes in this chapter. The seemingly irascible Aunt Betsey has quickly grown fond of David and has his best interests at heart, even though it means being parted from h..."Fiona are you still posting a weekly schedule? I am quickly becoming confused as to where we are, but the fact that I'm reading five books at the moment doesn't help. :) :)
Mod
Angela wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Chapter 15 So many touching scenes in this chapter. The seemingly irascible Aunt Betsey has quickly grown fond of David and has his best interests at heart, even though it means being..."
Angela I'm so sorry for the confusion. That was me that posted a schedule for the first week. I didn't do it again once I thought we all had the rhythm sorted.
I just updated message 2 with the schedule for the next week.
Hope that helps - 5 books at once - wow!
Angela I'm so sorry for the confusion. That was me that posted a schedule for the first week. I didn't do it again once I thought we all had the rhythm sorted.
I just updated message 2 with the schedule for the next week.
Hope that helps - 5 books at once - wow!
Chapter 15 illustration -
Uriah Heep by Kyd, 1910
I have never seen such an ancient looking 15 year old boy :D
Uriah Heep by Kyd, 1910
I have never seen such an ancient looking 15 year old boy :D
Well, fiddle - David just got settled in a home where people love him and treat him well, and now he's off to school. I am glad though that Aunt Betsey is doing this for him - and doing it because she loves and cares for him and acknowledges his worth and potential.
Bridget - I thought the same thing about the Wickfield house - imagining the levels jutting further and further into the space above the road.
I've only ever heard the name Uriah Heep so I have no preconceived ideas of him. But from meeting him in this chapter, ew! Heep the creep comes to mind. Not sure what to expect from him, but he feels like a cold, dark presence in the otherwise warm and happy home.
Favorite part of the chapter - David and Mr Dick flying the kite and David's thoughts -
...used to fancy, as I sat by him of an evening, on a green slope, and saw him watch the kite high in the quiet air, that it lifted his mind out of its confusion, and bore it (such was my boyish thought) into the skies.
Bridget - I thought the same thing about the Wickfield house - imagining the levels jutting further and further into the space above the road.
I've only ever heard the name Uriah Heep so I have no preconceived ideas of him. But from meeting him in this chapter, ew! Heep the creep comes to mind. Not sure what to expect from him, but he feels like a cold, dark presence in the otherwise warm and happy home.
Favorite part of the chapter - David and Mr Dick flying the kite and David's thoughts -
...used to fancy, as I sat by him of an evening, on a green slope, and saw him watch the kite high in the quiet air, that it lifted his mind out of its confusion, and bore it (such was my boyish thought) into the skies.
Thats a great quote CP! What a lovely image, releasing your worries into the sky. I wonder if Charles Dickens ever wanted to release some of his own manuscripts up into the sky.I don't know much about Uriah Heep either, I only know he's a villain. What was the deal with Uriah Heep breathing into the horse's nose and them putting his hand over it? Makes him seem like a sorcerer. And describing him as a cadaver, is worse than the description of James Carker's teeth (from Dombey and Son for those new to the group)
If you haven't read the posts on the original read thread, you should. Uriah Heep is based on a very famous person. Jean did a great job of explaining it all (as usual :-)
Bridget wrote: "Thats a great quote CP! What a lovely image, releasing your worries into the sky. I wonder if Charles Dickens ever wanted to release some of his own manuscripts up into the sky.
I don't know much ..."
It kind of feels like Dickens released his books for generations to come. Which is a lovely thing!
Yes, breathing into the horse's nostrils - that's super weird. I was stunned to read who Uriah Heep was based on! But I do recall from the bios I've read, he was a guest who overstayed his welcome with Dickens but seemed to be blissfully unaware of it lol! Surely the real life man couldn't have been that creepy though?
I don't know much ..."
It kind of feels like Dickens released his books for generations to come. Which is a lovely thing!
Yes, breathing into the horse's nostrils - that's super weird. I was stunned to read who Uriah Heep was based on! But I do recall from the bios I've read, he was a guest who overstayed his welcome with Dickens but seemed to be blissfully unaware of it lol! Surely the real life man couldn't have been that creepy though?
Here's a reference to the man who inspired Uriah Heep, from Charles Dickens by Claire Tomalin -
Hans Christian Andersen, invited in April by Dickens to visit, arrived in June and remained for five weeks, largely outstaying his welcome. Dickens started by liking him well enough, but his eccentricities and difficulties with the English language exasperated Georgina, Katey and especially Charley, who was horrified to be asked to shave him one morning. Andersen got on best with Catherine, who was patient and gentle, and whom he saw as the embodiment of Agnes from David Copperfield. Miss Coutts and Mrs Brown came to Gad’s to meet him, warned by Dickens that ‘he speaks no language but his own Danish, and is suspected of not even knowing that.’ They took him for a walk and lay on the grass while he made daisy chains, and afterwards suggested he should move on from Gad’s Hill to stay with them in Stratton Street, an invitation he accepted, to the relief of his host.
Poor man, lol - I hope he never knew he wore out his welcome with Dickens!
Hans Christian Andersen, invited in April by Dickens to visit, arrived in June and remained for five weeks, largely outstaying his welcome. Dickens started by liking him well enough, but his eccentricities and difficulties with the English language exasperated Georgina, Katey and especially Charley, who was horrified to be asked to shave him one morning. Andersen got on best with Catherine, who was patient and gentle, and whom he saw as the embodiment of Agnes from David Copperfield. Miss Coutts and Mrs Brown came to Gad’s to meet him, warned by Dickens that ‘he speaks no language but his own Danish, and is suspected of not even knowing that.’ They took him for a walk and lay on the grass while he made daisy chains, and afterwards suggested he should move on from Gad’s Hill to stay with them in Stratton Street, an invitation he accepted, to the relief of his host.
Poor man, lol - I hope he never knew he wore out his welcome with Dickens!
Bridget wrote: "You've said it exactly Fiona, the infamous Uriah Heep. Incredible that I've never read this book, but I know about Uriah Heep. I was surprised we meet him when he's only 15 years old. And those rea..."I think you’re picturing the house correctly, Bridget. There are still houses like that in Canterbury today.
Cozy_Pug wrote: "Here's a reference to the man who inspired Uriah Heep, from Charles Dickens by Claire Tomalin -Hans Christian Andersen, invited in April by Dickens to visit, arrive..."
How fascinating, CP. Thanks for sharing.
What a difference in motives for sending David/Trot to school this time! How kind of Betsey to ask for the best school and rejecting lodging that wouldn't be good enough. I think it's going to be quite interesting living temporarily with Mr. Wilkerson and Agnes with Uriah Heep nearby. I loved the advice Betsey gave David Trot...be a credit to yourself, to me, and Mr. Dick, and heaven be with you.
Never be mean in anything; never be false; never be cruel. Avoid these three vices, Trot, and I can always be hopeful of you.
Mod
Aunt Betsey’s advise is the truest we’ve read, certainly unlike anything Davy has heard in his young life. And the vision of the sad Aunt that Davy sees as she rides away reinforces just how much she cares for him. This separation is for Davy’s good not to unencumber Aunt Betsy. She would love him to be at home.
Cozy_Pug wrote: "Angela wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Chapter 15 So many touching scenes in this chapter. The seemingly irascible Aunt Betsey has quickly grown fond of David and has his best interests at heart, even though..."Thank you! I just got sucked in to 2 buddy reads, then a couple of books I've been waiting for came available at the library, then.....you know how it goes. THANKS.
Lori wrote: "What a difference in motives for sending David/Trot to school this time! How kind of Betsey to ask for the best school and rejecting lodging that wouldn't be good enough. I think it's going to be q..."Good comparison Lori! I hope that means the new school will be a happier place for Davy. I'm interested to see what happens in the next chapter.
Chapter 16 I love the description of the school grounds - the great stone urns like sublimated skittles, for Time to play at. Davy is at last at a good school, although for a while he feels so very different from the other boys due to all his traumatic experiences of the last months. It’s terrible to think that he thinks the other boys would judge him harshly, as it’s more likely they would be astounded and enthralled if he were to share his stories with them.He is with good people now - Mr Wickfield and Agnes, the hapless Dr Strong. Even Uriah Heep sounds like a good person - I am the umblest person going - despite his unfortunate appearance.
The tale of Annie Strong and Jack Maldon is very affecting, particularly as related through the eyes of the boy David and his later reflections as a man, and I half expected Annie to run off with Jack at the last minute. There is clearly a deep affection towards, and reliance on, Dr Strong though, as expressed by the look on her face later that evening - something quieted - unless I’m misinterpreting the phrase.
A long chapter but full of detail and an understated joy that David has finally found himself cared for by good people and is being given the chance to catch up on his education to which he commits himself fully.
Chapter 16 illustration -
"I return to the Doctor's after the party" by Phiz, 1849
"Umble as I am..." by Fred Barnard, 1870's
"The Doctor's walk" by Fred Barnard, 1870's
You really get a feel for the snaky Uriah Heep in the second illustration - yikes!
I think that's Dr Strong and Mr Wickfield in the third illustration.
Backtracking to chapter 15 - I missed this illustration -
Agnes, Mr Wickfield, and David by Fred Barnard, 1870's
"I return to the Doctor's after the party" by Phiz, 1849
"Umble as I am..." by Fred Barnard, 1870's
"The Doctor's walk" by Fred Barnard, 1870's
You really get a feel for the snaky Uriah Heep in the second illustration - yikes!
I think that's Dr Strong and Mr Wickfield in the third illustration.
Backtracking to chapter 15 - I missed this illustration -
Agnes, Mr Wickfield, and David by Fred Barnard, 1870's
Finally David is in a good school! I like Dr Strong, he seems to be a good, kind man and the boys seem to respect him - unlike the horrid Creakle. I'm intrigued by Dr Strong's name - he's strong of character, strong of intelligence, strong in kindness. But he seems to be a bit weak in the ways of the world - the boys try to protect him from things outside the walls of the school. The walls with the urns on top make it feel like the school is a secluded little fortress against the world, and inside Dr Strong is consumed with his Greek roots and dictionary and his sweet, young wife.
It's sad that David feels a gap between himself and the other boys -
I was so conscious of having passed through scenes of which they could have no knowledge, and of having acquired experiences foreign to my age, appearance, and condition as one of them, that I half believed it was an imposture to come there as an ordinary little schoolboy.
Icky Uriah Heep - he appears quite repulsive to me. I don't trust him or his motives -
He had a way of writhing when he wanted to express enthusiasm, which was very ugly; and which diverted my attention from the compliment he had paid my relation, to the snaky twistings of his throat and body.
Another fairy tale type reference in David's perception of Jack Maldon -
For my own part, I looked on Mr. Jack Maldon as a modern Sindbad, and pictured him the bosom friend of all the Rajahs in the East, sitting under canopies, smoking curly golden pipes—a mile long, if they could be straightened out.
I'm uncertain what I think is up with Jack Maldon, Annie, and her mother - the Old Soldier. There's a lot of undercurrents moving amongst these three. Annie seems devoted to her husband, but she also seems to be drawn to Jack. And the Old Soldier seems to be up to something - every word that comes out of her mouth sounds like a veiled reference. I sense she's a woman of machinations. Very intriguing, this bunch.
It's sad that David feels a gap between himself and the other boys -
I was so conscious of having passed through scenes of which they could have no knowledge, and of having acquired experiences foreign to my age, appearance, and condition as one of them, that I half believed it was an imposture to come there as an ordinary little schoolboy.
Icky Uriah Heep - he appears quite repulsive to me. I don't trust him or his motives -
He had a way of writhing when he wanted to express enthusiasm, which was very ugly; and which diverted my attention from the compliment he had paid my relation, to the snaky twistings of his throat and body.
Another fairy tale type reference in David's perception of Jack Maldon -
For my own part, I looked on Mr. Jack Maldon as a modern Sindbad, and pictured him the bosom friend of all the Rajahs in the East, sitting under canopies, smoking curly golden pipes—a mile long, if they could be straightened out.
I'm uncertain what I think is up with Jack Maldon, Annie, and her mother - the Old Soldier. There's a lot of undercurrents moving amongst these three. Annie seems devoted to her husband, but she also seems to be drawn to Jack. And the Old Soldier seems to be up to something - every word that comes out of her mouth sounds like a veiled reference. I sense she's a woman of machinations. Very intriguing, this bunch.
I agree CP, there is something going on with these three, though I think Annie is more innocent then the other two. I kept comparing Annie and Agnes as I read. They both live with and take care of much older men. One is a wife (Annie) and the other is a daughter (Agnes) who basically fulfills the wifely role for her father (though not with intimacy of course). But then, I get the feeling Annie may not be fulfilling that intimacy role either. Her relationship with Dr. Strong seems almost like a father/daughter relationship as well. It was interesting how Annie was dressed all in white, symbolizing her virtue. But then she had that cherry colored ribbon at her bosom which I think symbolizes her as a more "womanly" creature. And of course that ribbon ends up with Jack Maldon. I'm sure that's significant as well. Plus Mr. Wickfield didn't seem happy about Agnes being friends with Annie. I'm sure Dickens is up to something with comparing these two women.
Yes, the negative looks that Mr Wickfield gives Annie are noted by David (I just can’t think of him as Trot). I was wondering if he knows something about her, perhaps something related to his assignment to get Jack Maldon out of town or out of the country. And the Old Soldier is definitely up to no good. Poor Doctor Strong!
Cozy_Pug wrote: "Finally David is in a good school! I like Dr Strong, he seems to be a good, kind man and the boys seem to respect him - unlike the horrid Creakle. I'm intrigued by Dr Strong's name - he's strong of..."It seems obvious to me - although maybe I’m reading something into it that isn’t there - that Annie and Jack are in love. They wouldn’t be allowed to marry because they are cousins and Annie had a good offer from Dr Strong that her family would not have turned down. We know she has no money so she was set up for life by marrying him. Much of what Mrs Markleham says seems to indicate that she’s intent on making sure the marriage works and that Jack stays away. Or am I completely off the mark here?
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
David Copperfield (other topics)A Message from the Sea (other topics)
Bleak House (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
A Message from the Sea (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
John Forster (other topics)
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CP- I read the original thread and Jean mentions that the donkey incident actually happened to the woman he based Aunt Be..."
Thanks for mentioning the original thread - I haven't made it over there yet today.
I was thinking too about young Dickens liking to watch the boats and the water - maybe the moonlight on the water? Or maybe I'm running that together with Dombey.
I'm not sure if there's another meaning to a pair of babies. I took it at face value - the girl baby Aunt Betsey wanted but who wasn't born, and the boy baby who was.
Mr Dick - yes, I'm curious about him. I thought maybe he's a young lad Aunt Betsey was training (like Janet and her previous maids), but then I got the feeling Mr Dick is older (gray hair I think). And why is a man living in Aunt Betsey's house? Curiouser and curiouser....