Buddy read of David Copperfield May 2021 onwards with Cozy_Pug, Sue, Bridget, Fiona and Jenny

[Angela]

Not so keen on Steerforth after reading this. Interesting how disdain for those experiencing poverty continues to this day, at least here in the U.S. Fiona,I am also dreading the holiday visit! Guess we will find out soon enough how it goes.

[Lori]

Fiona, I also marked that quote and found it so disheartening.

There is quite a focus on Steerforth in this chapter 7 and we see a few sides of him. He is treating Davy in a way that Davy views as kind and helpful but he is still getting what he wants out of Davy with his telling him all the stories of the Arabian Nights even though Davy is tired and would sometimes rather not. Then we see how conniving he is how he knows how to manipulate Creakle into getting poor Mr. Mell kicked out. He plays a game with everyone, I think. He's gotten the students to believe that he's going to actually help Mr. Mell by providing him money, but that's just so he'll look good in their eyes. Certainly Davy is enamored by him right now. Steerforth is one that I am looking forward to seeing some comeuppance in the future.

Traddles, on the other hand, is an example of true kindness and sacrifice. He is getting in trouble for things he doesn't even cause and taking the punishment. Poor Tommy is always getting caned.

he was the merriest and most miserable of all the boys.

He was very honorable....and held it as a solemn duty in the boys to stand by one another. He suffered this on several occasions;

I do so hope that Davy find friendship with Tommy and sees through Steerforth's arrogance.

How nice to get to visit with Mr. Peggotty and Ham and hear about the others including Em'ly. How funny that Davy cannot believe she is growing into a woman. Ham appears to be a bit smitten with her. I hope Davy gets to visit them again soon!

[[deleted user]]

Chapter 7 illustrations -


Steerforth and Mr Mell by Phiz, 1849


"Let him deny it," said Steerforth. Fred Barnard, 1872


"Don't go Steerforth...". Fred Barnard, 1872

[[deleted user]]

Well this chapter shows how horrid Creakle is, and that J Steerforth isn't as lovely as David still thinks he is.

I like the fairy tale reference in describing Creakle -

Mr. Creakle entered after breakfast, and stood in the doorway looking round upon us like a giant in a story-book surveying his captives.

An amusing description -

I know him to have been an incapable brute, who had no more right to be possessed of the great trust he held, than to be Lord High Admiral, or Commander-in-Chief—in either of which capacities it is probable that he would have done infinitely less mischief.

And the awful position these boys are in, chained to the caning beast that is Creakle, is so sad -

Mr. Creakle cuts a joke before he beats him, and we laugh at it,—miserable little dogs, we laugh, with our visages as white as ashes, and our hearts sinking into our boots.

Oh what a nasty, rotten thing Steerforth did to Mr Mell! I see Steerforth now as someone who stores up bits of information to use against anyone who is in a weaker or lesser position. He's also insufferably arrogant and classist. It's clear that Mr Mell knows what Steerforth is all about, and that he cares for David -

"At present I would prefer to see you anything rather than a friend, to me, or to anyone in whom I feel an interest." Once more he laid his hand upon my shoulder....

What a happy visit from the Yarmouth group! That was sweet and so funny to bring cooked seafood to David. That Traddles, poor thing, destined for misery lol. He couldn't even fully enjoy the seafood feast -

He was too unfortunate even to come through a supper like anybody else.

This is an interesting coping mechanism Traddles has for his pain and misery -

I used at first to wonder what comfort Traddles found in drawing skeletons; and for some time looked upon him as a sort of hermit, who reminded himself by those symbols of mortality that caning couldn’t last forever. But I believe he only did it because they were easy, and didn’t want any features.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry, it's funny and heartbreaking both.

Oh boy, what's in store for David when he arrives home for the holiday? Yikes a holiday with those awful Murdstones.

[[deleted user]]

I like the Phiz illustration for this chapter - it really shows the absolute chaos in the school room! It looks like there's even a boy hanging over the top of the door into the room :D

In the Barnard illustration, Traddles is standing behind Steerforth on the left - he's holding something with skeletons drawn on it.

[Bridget]

Cozy_Pug, I also marked that passage about the boys being "miserable little dogs" who laugh at Mr. Creakle's jokes as he is beating poor Traddles. There have been more than a few metaphors to the mistreatments of pets ever since that moment Mr. Murdstone described his methods of training a dog to Davy. Clara is nothing more than a trained pet for the Murdstones. She looks to Jane Murdstone before she utters a word. And of course Davy's placard warning of biting. I think Dickens is using all this to say people can be mistreated as much, if not more than animals. Or maybe that the people with power in the story don't see those below them as anything other than base animals. Even Steerforth (who isn't as physically cruel) treats Davy like a pet. Perhaps a beloved pet (though I'm not sure about that yet), but certainly not an equal.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Nice :)

[Bridget]

I also liked this line because it gets at something about Davy's character that has been running through my brain.

"whatever I had within me that was romantic and dreamy, was encouraged by so much story telling in the dark; and in that respect the pursuit may not have been very profitable to me"

I keep seeing Davy as a sort of hopeless romantic type. Like when he falls for Emily and says "I told Em'ly I adored her, and that unless she confessed she adored me I should be reduced to the necessity of killing myself with a sword" Which sounds like it could come straight from one of the books he reads.

Its maybe a bit too romantic for such a young person. But we are being told what young Davy said by the much older David Copperfield narrator. So is Davy Copperfield really romantic, or is the older David Copperfield just remembering his past through a romantic lens? I'm not sure it matters if there is a clear answer to that question. Its just interesting to remember every once in awhile as I'm reading that the narrator has already lived all these experiences.

[Sue]

I found myself seeing this young storyteller Davy growing up into the older storytelling Charles Dickens. This section struck me as the most possibly autobiographical section yet. Davy mentions some of Dickens’s favorite books and tells them, the best he can, from memory. Was this a vision of the beginning of Dickens on stage performances? Knowing more about Dickens adds to an already wonderful book.

[Fiona]

Bionic Jean wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "Would he have been so much more advanced than the other pupils that he could do that? ..."

Yes, its hard to imagine now but my aunt was appointed as what was call..."

Interesting, Jean. I’d never heard of this before.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Fiona wrote: "Yes, its hard to imagine now but my aunt was appoin..."

Perhaps Scotland didn't have them? Your Education system is a bit different.

[Fiona]

Chapter 8 I’m so pleased that Davy had a joyous return home. Even though it didn’t last long, he has that happy memory. What foul people the Murdstones are! Davy has such a lovely nature. There is no hint of jealousy at seeing his mother with a new baby. It’s terrible that a child should be made to feel so miserable in his own home.

Clara frustrates me although I understand why she behaves as she does. When she says, I am a weak, light, girlish creature and....he [Murdstone] is a firm, grave, serious man, I wanted to scream! In all she says of him, there isn’t even a hint of a loving relationship.

So Davy, much relieved, returns to school.

Personal note: I’m reading my grandfather’s copy. I didn’t know him as he died in the 1950s, several years before I was born. I’ve seen lots of photographs though and he is nearly always smoking. My Mum told me that he used to keep a cigarette hanging from his lips until the ash fell off. On page 100, there is a tiny little hole burned through the page, exactly through the letter ‘o’. Did his ash fall onto the page? I’ll never know but I love the thought.

[[deleted user]]

Bionic Jean wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Bionic Jean wrote: "Would he have been so much more advanced than the other pupils that he could do that? ..."

Yes, its hard to imagine now but my aunt was appointed as what was call..."

In the US frontier days, mid 1800s, it wasn't unusual to have schoolteachers in their mid to late teens. Once the prairie schools were more established, the age of teachers went up.

[[deleted user]]

Fiona wrote: "Chapter 8 I’m so pleased that Davy had a joyous return home. Even though it didn’t last long, he has that happy memory. What foul people the Murdstones are! Davy has such a lovely nature. There is ..."

Fiona I love this! What a treasure to have your grandfather's copy of DC to read. Such a great story!

[Fiona]

Cozy_Pug wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Chapter 8 I’m so pleased that Davy had a joyous return home. Even though it didn’t last long, he has that happy memory. What foul people the Murdstones are! Davy has such a lovely nat..."

I’m even luckier, CP. I have his whole set of Dickens, although I’ve only read a few.

[Bridget]

Fiona, Thanks for sharing that story about your grandfather's book, I love that!

I'm frustrated with Clara too, but I also feel bad for her. Now she's got this new baby and I can only imagine how the Murdstones will control what she does with this new baby. Were we ever told the baby's name? If we were, I missed it. Thank goodness for Peggotty who is really loyal to Clara! And her thinking of Aunt Betsy is brilliant. Maybe she can be a champion for Davy and stand up to the Murdstones.

I was struck by how quickly my feelings changed about wanting Davy to get back to the "safety" of school. When Jane Murdstone starts counting down the days until his holiday ends, at first I'm so sad - but then as the Murdstones use him as a pawn to torment his mother I can't wait for the end of the holidays to arrive. Its an echo of the way the previous chapter ended where Davy couldn't wait for the start of the holiday.

[Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"]

Fiona - that is such a precious memory; I think you are probably right. Thank you for sharing it :)

[[deleted user]]

I'm wondering, when I read about Miss Murdstone rummaging around the house - would she possibly be looking for a will, or a money box or safe, something of value? I don't have any idea how property would pass - I guess when Clara was a widow all she had would pass to David. But now that she's married, all her property is legally Mr Murdstone's? Would she still have a will of her own? I'm wondering if the Murdstones know of some inheritance specifically for David that they're trying to get for themselves.

After his first night home, what a dismal holiday poor David had - made to feel an unwelcome burden in his home. He seemed to know before he arrived that it wouldn't be pleasant -

Ah, what a strange feeling it was to be going home when it was not home, and to find that every object I looked at, reminded me of the happy old home, which was like a dream I could never dream again!

This sounds like foreshadowing -

We were very happy; and that evening, as the last of its race, and destined evermore to close that volume of my life, will never pass out of my memory.

We wonder sometimes who's talking, young David or older, narrator David, but this seems to be a thought of young David and it's heartbreaking that he realized this -

I had perception enough to know that my mother was the victim always....

I love these vivid descriptions -

...the bare old elm-trees wrung their many hands in the bleak wintry air....

It appeared to my childish fancy, as I ascended to the bedroom where I had been imprisoned, that they brought a cold blast of air into the house which blew away the old familiar feeling like a feather.

I'm enjoying the lighter note of the Peggotty-Barkis affair :D Him chalking her full name onto his cart, she blushing and hiding her face in her apron. Too cute!

[[deleted user]]

Bridget wrote: "Fiona, Thanks for sharing that story about your grandfather's book, I love that!

I'm frustrated with Clara too, but I also feel bad for her. Now she's got this new baby and I can only imagine how ..."

I know what you mean - at least at school there are boys who enjoy being with David and genuinely like him (I'm not willing yet to include Steerforth in the genuine friend category - I'm still suspicious of him).

[[deleted user]]

Chapter 8 illustration -


"Changes at home" by Phiz, 1849

[Sammy]

Cozy_Pug wrote: "Hi Sammy! Good to see you here! I'm excited this is your favorite Dickens novel and that you can pop in and discuss when you're able to!

I keep seeing Richard Armitage mentioned in DC discussions here - I need to listen to a sample of his audio recording and hear what makes him so good!"

Oh goodness yes! I think his David Copperfield is his best audio recording to date, and he really manages to bring the book to life.
I'll probably be doing a mixture of listening to him and reading a paper copy.

But first I need to finish listening to Little Dorrit. Loving it, though will be sad that I only have 1 unread dickens left after this one!

[Sammy]

Bridget wrote: "I really liked the Aunt Bestey Trotwood character. Not that I like how she treats Mrs. Copperfield, just how she's so sure of herself, abrasive and obstinate. What a great character. I loved when she stuffed cotton in her ears to keep away the screams of childbirth. And how she was so sure it was a girl, and then left when it wasn't. She made me laugh."

Count me in as a Betsy fangirl! I remember thinking how much I loved her a few years back, and that her character would be absolutely perfect played by Maggie Smith.

Imagine how happy I was when I found out she has! lol

[Sammy]

Cozy_Pug wrote: "The descriptions of the Peggotty home are so vivid - I can see it, smell it, hear it, taste it"

This is so true! I first read this book more than 20 years ago, and then re-visited it relatively recently. The descriptions of the Peggotty home were what I remembered most clearly.
I love how Dickens can create such vivid detail, without sacrificing the pace of the story.

[Sue]

I was struck by a comment in Clara’s conversation with Peggoty the evening of Davy’s return home. After Davy asked Peggoty about Barkis and learned that Barkis’ message had actually been a marriage proposal, Clara repeatedly asks her if she is going to be married. Peggoty denies it vehemently. Then:

My mother took her hand, and said:
“Don’t leave me, Peggoty. Stay with me. It will not be for long, perhaps. What should I ever do without you!

Clara seems to have a premonition, or perhaps some sort of knowledge, that she will not live much longer. Or perhaps she doesn’t want to live much longer although that would seem an odd sentiment for a mother of a newborn and a young son (putting aside our modern knowledge of post-partum depression)

[Sammy]

I gotta say, I'm loving all the additional info on Dickens and his life alongside the book. I've added a few of the books mentioned in this thread to my tbr!

[Sue]

Of course, another possibility is that she could fear that Murdstone will simply let Peggoty go.

[Bridget]

Sue, I had those same thoughts during the Peggotty/Clara conversation -- that Clara might not live much longer. I'm concerned too for the new baby - because it doesn't seem good that we aren't told his name. Like maybe the baby doesn't live much longer either.

And your other possibility of Murdstone getting rid of Peggotty -- how is it possible that Murdstone hasn't done that yet??

[Bridget]

Sammy wrote: "Bridget wrote: "I really liked the Aunt Bestey Trotwood character. Not that I like how she treats Mrs. Copperfield, just how she's so sure of herself, abrasive and obstinate. What a great character..."

I didn't realize Maggie Smith played Aunt Betsy!! That is perfect casting. Can't wait to watch this when I'm done. :-)

[Janelle]

The ending of the chapter is quite ominous too

“So I lost her. So I saw her afterwards, in my sleep at school—a silent presence near my bed—looking at me with the same intent face—holding up her baby in her arms.”

It was hard to not keep reading!

[Lori]

Janelle wrote: "The ending of the chapter is quite ominous too

“So I lost her. So I saw her afterwards, in my sleep at school—a silent presence near my bed—looking at me with the same intent face—holding up her b..."

YES! What does he mean by "lost her"? It could mean that she won't be able to put Davy first any longer because of the baby. He is forever going to see this image in his mind now. And maybe it means that Davy won't be going home any longer? He feels like a third wheel, an afterthought, an extra not worthwhile to this family. I am shuddering at the thoughts he has about his circumstance as being a "daymare" and that he is a "blank space".

In short, I was not a favorite with Miss Murdstone. In short, I was not a favorite there with anybody, not even with myself; for those who did like me could not show it, and those who did not, showed it so plainly that I had a sensitive consciousness of always appearing constrained, boorish and dull.

What walks I took alone, down muddy lanes, in the bad winter weather, carrying that parlor, and Mr. and Miss Murdstone in it, everywhere: a monstrous load that I was obliged to bear, a daymare that there was no possibility of breaking in, a weight that brooded on my wits, and blunted them!

What meals I had in silence and embarrassment, always feeling that there were a knife and fork too many, and that mine; an appetite too many, and that mine; a plate and chair too many, and those mine; a somebody too many, and that I!

what a blank space I seemed, which everybody overlooked, and yet was in everybody's way

[Franky]

Fiona-- thanks for sharing that story about your grandfather. That is so cool that you are reading his book.

Janelle- I agree. There is something foreboding and ominous about that line.

Cozy Pug: I highlighted that same quote from Chapter 8, which seems to be an apt description of David's perspective into the Murdstones and their intrusions into his life and familiar past memories:

"It appeared to my childish fancy, as I descended into the bedroom where I had been imprisoned, that they brought a cold blast of air into the house which blew away that old familiar feeling like a feather."

I love Dickens' way of describing a moment or point of view in such an illustrative and poignant way.

[[deleted user]]

I wondered about Clara's comment too - it won't be for much longer. Dickens also described the skin of her hands being transparent or translucent, I can't recall which but it made me think of the way very ill people look sometimes. Maybe she was ill but David didn't pick up on that.

I love seeing how Dickens' own experiences meld into this story - it adds a great dimension to it.

And yes, how sad for a child to view himself as a blank space. That's awful!

[Sue]

Janelle, yes that final part at the end of the chapter also seems to be foreboding, doesn’t it. Sort of don’t forget me or us. Scary and sad.

And, as was said above, the baby hasn’t been named, which also seems a bad omen. If I remember correctly, long ago, babies were christened at about 3 months of age. I wonder if Murdstone could be such a , I don’t know, perhaps old fashioned Conservative, that he wouldn’t want the baby named until then. Also infant mortality was high in those times, so that might have had some impact on naming and bonding.

[Angela]

Enjoying your comments, not much to add. Nervous for Clara. :(

[[deleted user]]

Sue wrote: "Janelle, yes that final part at the end of the chapter also seems to be foreboding, doesn’t it. Sort of don’t forget me or us. Scary and sad.

And, as was said above, the baby hasn’t been named, w..."

Sue I just now read this in Claire Tomalin's Charles Dickens: A Life -

[Their first child] was not christened for nearly a year, neither parent considering it a pressing matter or one of great religious significance....

She says Dickens referred to him in his letters as "our boy" or "the infant phenomenon".

That sounds like they didn't name him? So you may be right about why baby boy Murdstone didn't have a Christian name.

[Sue]

That’s interesting. It’s not something I remember from reading that bio, but it’s a detail that would be in Dickens’ mind.

[Fiona]

Sue wrote: "Of course, another possibility is that she could fear that Murdstone will simply let Peggoty go."

That’s what I thought she might be thinking, Sue, and that she has her best interests at heart.

[Fiona]

Cozy_Pug wrote: "Sue wrote: "Janelle, yes that final part at the end of the chapter also seems to be foreboding, doesn’t it. Sort of don’t forget me or us. Scary and sad.

And, as was said above, the baby hasn’t b..."

Wouldn’t he be called Edward after his father, following the usual tradition? I thought it was strange not to name him too but Dickens has been slow to tell us others’ names too.

[Bridget]

I wondered if there were traditions where babies weren’t named until much later. But even if that was the case here, wouldn’t the Narrator (Older Davy) already know his brother’s name?

[Sue]

That’s true Bridget. Which makes me wonder if the baby was never named to Davy’s knowledge or didn’t survive to be christened.

[Fiona]

Chapter 9 I’ve not often been in tears so early in a book but this is just heartbreaking. What will become of Davy now?

What killed Clara? A broken heart? Post natal complications? Why didn’t the baby thrive? Murdstone appears to be grieving but who is he grieving for? Clara, the baby, both or himself? None of this really matters. Davy has lost his adored mother. Thank goodness he has Peggotty, at least for now.

It’s interesting that Murdstone allowed Clara and the baby to be laid to rest beside her first husband. I suppose it saves the expense of a new lair!

Back to the beginning of the chapter. What a wonderful description of the abject cold of the schoolroom in the early morning. I smell the fog that hung about the place; I see the hoar frost, ghostly, through it; I feel my rimy hair fall clammy on my cheek;...

[Lori]

Such a sad chapter today. I think some of the clues we've talked about have led up to this tragic day. The translucent skin and the comment to Peggotty about 'it won't be for long' definitely stood out. My radar is picking up on these while I read, but I'm not quite getting the signals to my brain 😝 so I must hone in a bit better with the foreshadowing. I appreciate the discussion we have here in that area.

It sounds like David will not be going back to Salem House.

I left Salem House upon the morrow afternoon. I little thought then that I left it, never to return.

Now, what? I cannot fathom David staying with the Murdstones or him becoming a ward to them (how horrid) and so the only blood relative we know of is Aunt Betsey! That could be a possibility.

I loved the rhythmic language Dickens used when David was getting fitted for his mourning clothes - RAT tat-tat, RAT tat-tat, RAT tat-tat. You know it's the hammering for the coffins.

I am glad that Peggotty was able to and willing to tell David the story of Clara's death and to hear through her what his mother's final words were. And how she died in Peggotty's arms is like going back to the happier life before this marriage. It is a sweet picture.

I noted the ending of the chapter and how David is able to erase the latest period of Clara's life and take him back to how he remembered her as a happier woman.

In her death she winged her way back to her calm untroubled youth, cancelled all the rest.
The mother who lay in the grave, was the mother of my infancy; the little creature in her arms, was myself, as I had once been, hushed forever on her bosom.

I suppose David will no longer be that boy anymore so he considers that life now buried with his mother.

[Bridget]

Lori, what a wonderful way to describe what is now happening with Davy. I had not connected yet that this is the line where Davy will leave his young boyhood behind. I think I was too sad to get my brain all the way there. Like Fiona said, I've hardly been moved to tears to early in a book. There was something about that conversation with Peggotty that just did me in and the tears just came.

After I finished the chapter, Mrs. Chick and her famous "make an effort" line popped into my head. Poor Clara, made me think of Fanny in Dombey and Son. We never really knew her, but maybe through Clara we see the cost of living in a loveless, cold house.

[[deleted user]]

Chapter 9 illustration -


"What a porpoise you do grow!" By Fred Barnard, 1872

An odd scene to choose for the illustration, to me....

[Nancy]

Cozy_Pug wrote: "I'm wondering, when I read about Miss Murdstone rummaging around the house - would she possibly be looking for a will, or a money box or safe, something of value? I don't have any idea how property..."
From what I've read in historical fiction, yes, Mr. Murdstone would now be the recipient. In control of her house, and money, and her.

[[deleted user]]

Well, that was an incredibly heart breaking chapter! You all have the same thoughts I do. David's memories, the sounds, the sights - the descriptions are marvelous. I also wonder what killed Clara - parts of what Peggotty said sound like post partum depression, but then it sounds too as if Clara was depressed before the baby was born. Thank goodness she had Peggotty to care for her in her final days, I was afraid the awful sister in law would've taken charge of Clara's care.

I thought it was very interesting that Mr Murdstone was openly weeping and distraught over Clara's death. What a strange man.

But what's the plan for David now? If he doesn't return to school, what will he do?

This is my favorite line from the chapter - it's sad in context, but on a larger level it's a neat way to think of forgotten memories as waiting for us somewhere -

Events of later date have floated from me to the shore where all forgotten things will reappear....

[Sue]

I can’t imagine Mr Murdstone has much use for Davy at this point. Davy is not his son but costs him money to feed and educate and house. Since Dickens was loosed upon the world very young, I wonder if Murdstone will apprentice Davy out to learn something practical and start earning his way.

[Nancy]

Cozy_Pug wrote: "I also wonder what killed Clara ..."
From what I've read about sanitation and childbirth in those times, it could have been any number of things.

[Nancy]

Fiona wrote: "Chapter 9 I’ve not often been in tears so early in a book but this is just heartbreaking. What will become of Davy now?

What killed Clara? A broken heart? Post natal complications? Why didn’t the ..."
I wouldn't expect Dickens to go into great detail, he probably didn't know all the details of childbirth and delivery. Back then those things were NOT discussed.

[Fiona]

Cozy_Pug wrote: "Well, that was an incredibly heart breaking chapter! You all have the same thoughts I do. David's memories, the sounds, the sights - the descriptions are marvelous. I also wonder what killed Clara ..."

I love that sentence too, CP. I read it over several times.