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Buddy Reads
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Buddy read of David Copperfield May 2021 onwards with Cozy_Pug, Sue, Bridget, Fiona and Jenny
Chapter 3: I think this is one of my favourite parts of the whole book. The descriptions of the people & places are wonderful.
Mod
Are you reading our side read Angela: The Victorian City: Everyday Life in Dickens' London? There's lots about London's insanitary conditions there! No proper sewer system and often only one toilet for a whole tenement containing hundreds of people, so the river Thames was used for everything - so you're right about the drinking water there. It was responsible for cholera and a typhoid epidemic - Queen Victoria's husband died from typhoid.
But in country areas it was better. So encouraging little kids to drink was partly bravado.
Davy's mother is pretty and affectionate, but slightly vain, and easily impressed by a man like Murdstone, as Lori said.
"Murdstone" - i.e. murky - plus you may remember with Mr. Merdle in Little Dorrit the French word "merde" means excerement.
Jean, I wish I could! I've got this, our short stories coming up in June, Song of Achilles in another group, 1491 which I started in between Dickens novels, and A Brief History of Time which I've been reading since January! I am a lunatic.
Mod
I loved the description of Yarmouth in Chapter 3 but my, hasn’t it changed?! I loved all the domestic detail of the Peggottys’ home and its occupants - Dan Peggotty, ‘as good as gold and as true as steel’ and self pitying Mrs Gummidge, ‘a lone lorn creetur’ who keeps saying she should go to the poor house to die. In particular, I love Dickens description of the ships seen through heavy mist ‘like their own shadows’. So evocative. Of course, the reader knows all along what Davy is going home to but he doesn’t and has such a lovely holiday before he returns to a home he doesn’t recognise and a new papa.
Mod
And as an excuse for me lurking ...
The reason for Charles Dickens giving us these handy descriptions or oft repeated phrases by his characters, was to help his readers remember them! Only one installment a month meant characters were hard to keep in the mind - especially when they might disappear for a few installments.
But whenever we read about Mrs. Gummidge, we will now think of the phrase: "‘a lone lorn creetur’" :)
The controlling Mr Murdstone, telling his new wife not to make any fuss over her son who has just arrived home to this totally new situation! Well, we have a new person to loathe, absolutely. And Davy’s mother appears properly under his thumb. Davy will need Peggoty—I hope she is allowed to stay.
A Phiz illustration for chapter 3
Mr Peggotty, Ham, and Mrs Gummidge by Sol Eytinge, 1867
Dan'l Peggotty by Kyd, 1910
Well this chapter is downright delightful, until...until...that nasty Mr Murdstone wrecks David's happy, peaceful home. Urrrgggghhhh }:|
I adore the Peggotty home - what a treasure that would be for a young child. Dickens has a good feel for a child's mind - David's idea that the boat was perfect as a home because it was never intended to be a home. Children have a knack for using something for an unintended purpose - a cardboard box is a rocketship, pillows and blankets become an impenetrable fort, a colander is a knight's helmet. It's sweet and touching and endearing to read how Dickens understands this.
The descriptions of the Peggotty home are so vivid - I can see it, smell it, hear it, taste it -
...smelt the fish, and pitch, and oakum, and tar, and saw the sailors walking about, and the carts jingling up and down over the stones....
...the smell of fish; which was so searching, that when I took out my pocket-handkerchief to wipe my nose, I found it smelt exactly as if it had wrapped up a lobster.
I love David's unfettered curiosity about his hosts - who are they, how do they relate to each other, why are they all together. So true to childrens' love of questions. David has such funny observations, I love it -
"Did you give your son the name of Ham, because you lived in a sort of ark?"
It appeared, in answer to my inquiries, that nobody had the least idea of the etymology of this terrible verb passive to be gormed; but that they all regarded it as constituting a most solemn imprecation.
"...azackly," was always the substitute for exactly, in Peggotty’s militia of words....
It's a very clear line drawn in this chapter that David's idyllic childhood is over, as soon as the door to his home is opened by a strange woman who is not his mother. Before that, there's a feeling that something is ending when David is in Yarmouth -
The days sported by us, as if Time had not grown up himself yet, but were a child too, and always at play.
And the day of his return home is -
a cold grey afternoon, with a dull sky, threatening rain!
I can imagine how disorienting it felt to David to return home to a strange servant, his bedroom changed, a massive scary dog in the backyard, his mother's unusual reserve - and the nasty Mr Murdstone is his new father! That's a lot to process for a young child, and he's broadsided by it all in one go. And it didn't take long for Mr Murdstone to exert his power over Clara -
Now, Clara my dear,’ said Mr. Murdstone. ‘Recollect! control yourself, always control yourself!
What nerve! I do not like him, I do not like him one iota! I'm undecided if I think he's as evil as Evil Carker - we shall see.
And the foreshadowing of something bad in store for Little Em'ly - hmmm, will there be an end to both their childhoods?
I adore the Peggotty home - what a treasure that would be for a young child. Dickens has a good feel for a child's mind - David's idea that the boat was perfect as a home because it was never intended to be a home. Children have a knack for using something for an unintended purpose - a cardboard box is a rocketship, pillows and blankets become an impenetrable fort, a colander is a knight's helmet. It's sweet and touching and endearing to read how Dickens understands this.
The descriptions of the Peggotty home are so vivid - I can see it, smell it, hear it, taste it -
...smelt the fish, and pitch, and oakum, and tar, and saw the sailors walking about, and the carts jingling up and down over the stones....
...the smell of fish; which was so searching, that when I took out my pocket-handkerchief to wipe my nose, I found it smelt exactly as if it had wrapped up a lobster.
I love David's unfettered curiosity about his hosts - who are they, how do they relate to each other, why are they all together. So true to childrens' love of questions. David has such funny observations, I love it -
"Did you give your son the name of Ham, because you lived in a sort of ark?"
It appeared, in answer to my inquiries, that nobody had the least idea of the etymology of this terrible verb passive to be gormed; but that they all regarded it as constituting a most solemn imprecation.
"...azackly," was always the substitute for exactly, in Peggotty’s militia of words....
It's a very clear line drawn in this chapter that David's idyllic childhood is over, as soon as the door to his home is opened by a strange woman who is not his mother. Before that, there's a feeling that something is ending when David is in Yarmouth -
The days sported by us, as if Time had not grown up himself yet, but were a child too, and always at play.
And the day of his return home is -
a cold grey afternoon, with a dull sky, threatening rain!
I can imagine how disorienting it felt to David to return home to a strange servant, his bedroom changed, a massive scary dog in the backyard, his mother's unusual reserve - and the nasty Mr Murdstone is his new father! That's a lot to process for a young child, and he's broadsided by it all in one go. And it didn't take long for Mr Murdstone to exert his power over Clara -
Now, Clara my dear,’ said Mr. Murdstone. ‘Recollect! control yourself, always control yourself!
What nerve! I do not like him, I do not like him one iota! I'm undecided if I think he's as evil as Evil Carker - we shall see.
And the foreshadowing of something bad in store for Little Em'ly - hmmm, will there be an end to both their childhoods?
What a lovely chapter. I loved this line: "The days sported us by, as if Time had not grown up himself yet, but were a child too, and always at play."Like everyone, I too enjoyed Mrs. Gummidge. I have a relative who also has the attitude "I feel it more than other people" -- and she always makes me roll my eyes and shake my head. I love that Mr. Peggotty has nothing but sympathy for her.
I know the big change for Davy is his mother's marriage, but I also felt like his first kiss and first blush with love in Emily was a change too.
Emily is an interesting character. She too is an orphan, like Davy. She appears to be a practical, reasonable girl in that of course she would like to be a lady (who wouldn't!) and she has a very practical fear of losing Ham and Mr. Peggotty to the sea. But then she also is a risk taker and taunts danger by walking on a narrow precipice over the sea. And of course the narrator gives us much foreshadowing there.
This new dog will be no Diogenes!I did wonder about David and Emily kissing. I have no childhood memories of kissing boys in the neighborhood but maybe others do. And we think David is maybe 6 or 7. It’s enough of a memory for him to recall as an adult. He developed such feelings for her in that short time, but then it felt as if he loved the whole family. I don’t think he would have minded being adopted into it though they all knew he was of a different class.
Jean has mentioned in several places that Dickens loved The Arabian Nights as a child. And this chapter makes a reference to those stories -
If it had been Aladdin’s palace, roc’s egg and all, I suppose I could not have been more charmed with the romantic idea of living in it.
I started reading Dickens by Peter Ackroyd this week (the long one). Ackroyd lists the books Dickens loved as child and talks about how he loved reading and how vivid an imagination he had -
"[These books] kept alive my fancy, and my hope of something beyond that place and time..."the young Charles Dickens comforted himself "by impersonating my favourite characters" and avenged himself on his enemies by putting them "into all the bad ones". These fictional characters literally came alive to him; he could see them...This is the other significant image of Dickens's childhood...the image of the solitary child, lost in his book, preoccupied with his own fancies, creating his own world. Creating his own world so vividly that it supplanted the one around him...the boy "reading for life" became the man who wrote as if for life, taking the world and recreating it in more consoling form.
To me this is fascinating because Dickens was able to create these worlds in his novels so completely. Like his vivid childhood imagination stayed with him as an adult. There's plenty of authors who can make a story come alive and who do it very well. But the more I read of Dickens' work, I see an extra something that makes his books come alive on a whole other level. The characters and the action and the settings feel real - like these were actual real people who did and said these things and lived in these places. It's the feeling of opening the book and falling into it, and being there with the characters.
This is a bit of a ramble lol, but I'm amazed at how much I have fallen in love this year with Dickens' writing. I want to read all the Dickens and know all the things about him.
Tomorrow is a free day - a day to catch up on chapters 1-3 if needed, re-read them if the urge strikes, catch up on this thread and the original DC group read thread, and/or add to the discussion here. On Friday May 14, we'll get back to the story by reading chapter 4.
If it had been Aladdin’s palace, roc’s egg and all, I suppose I could not have been more charmed with the romantic idea of living in it.
I started reading Dickens by Peter Ackroyd this week (the long one). Ackroyd lists the books Dickens loved as child and talks about how he loved reading and how vivid an imagination he had -
"[These books] kept alive my fancy, and my hope of something beyond that place and time..."the young Charles Dickens comforted himself "by impersonating my favourite characters" and avenged himself on his enemies by putting them "into all the bad ones". These fictional characters literally came alive to him; he could see them...This is the other significant image of Dickens's childhood...the image of the solitary child, lost in his book, preoccupied with his own fancies, creating his own world. Creating his own world so vividly that it supplanted the one around him...the boy "reading for life" became the man who wrote as if for life, taking the world and recreating it in more consoling form.
To me this is fascinating because Dickens was able to create these worlds in his novels so completely. Like his vivid childhood imagination stayed with him as an adult. There's plenty of authors who can make a story come alive and who do it very well. But the more I read of Dickens' work, I see an extra something that makes his books come alive on a whole other level. The characters and the action and the settings feel real - like these were actual real people who did and said these things and lived in these places. It's the feeling of opening the book and falling into it, and being there with the characters.
This is a bit of a ramble lol, but I'm amazed at how much I have fallen in love this year with Dickens' writing. I want to read all the Dickens and know all the things about him.
Tomorrow is a free day - a day to catch up on chapters 1-3 if needed, re-read them if the urge strikes, catch up on this thread and the original DC group read thread, and/or add to the discussion here. On Friday May 14, we'll get back to the story by reading chapter 4.
Sue wrote: "This new dog will be no Diogenes!I did wonder about David and Emily kissing. I have no childhood memories of kissing boys in the neighborhood but maybe others do. And we think David is maybe 6 or..."
Ha! Sue, your comment about Diogenes made me smile :-) So true!!
CozyPug sorry I requoted you in my post - must have crossed in the internet ethers! I loved how you pointed out the line of Davy's childhood ending the moment he comes home. I hadn't connected all that until I read your post.
Mod
Little Em'ly - Jessie Willcox Smith
Bridget - no apology needed, it's a beautiful line - I'm glad it struck you, too!
This moment in the story is very relatable to me - there was a solid and distinct line drawn across my childhood when my parents divorced. Nothing awful happened like what I suspect is coming for David, but it was definitely a door closing.
Sue - good point about this dog - I don't get a warm, fuzzy, affectionate doggy feel from whatever is in David's backyard!
Fiona - I agree, the details of the Peggotty home are lovely - I want to visit them for a while, too! Good, big hearted people in a snug, cozy home - what could be better. Poor Mrs Gummidge, she feels deeply all that she's lost. And maybe enjoys her misery just a bit.
Angela - you're not insane, you're a book lover! :D
This moment in the story is very relatable to me - there was a solid and distinct line drawn across my childhood when my parents divorced. Nothing awful happened like what I suspect is coming for David, but it was definitely a door closing.
Sue - good point about this dog - I don't get a warm, fuzzy, affectionate doggy feel from whatever is in David's backyard!
Fiona - I agree, the details of the Peggotty home are lovely - I want to visit them for a while, too! Good, big hearted people in a snug, cozy home - what could be better. Poor Mrs Gummidge, she feels deeply all that she's lost. And maybe enjoys her misery just a bit.
Angela - you're not insane, you're a book lover! :D
So, can anyone speculate as to why DC was sent away and not informed of his mother's wedding?
Angela, I think his mother was a coward. She didn’t want to tell David herself as she knew he’d be upset. I assumed her new husband didn’t want to bother with David at the wedding, either because he disliked children or because David was a reminder that his bride had been married before. So Peggotty had to take David away & was supposed to tell him about the wedding so he had time to get used to it before returning home - but she didn’t want to upset him & only told him when they got to the house. Peggotty is one of my favourite characters, but I thought she got it very wrong & made it worse for David than if she had told him sooner.
That's a great question, Angela. Maybe it was thought he was too young or maybe it will come out later in the text that Murdstone didn't want him there? It does seem an odd thing not to tell Davy when he seems to have such a close bond with his mother. Maybe we will find out.This was a wonderful chapter that fulfilled all of the senses. I do like Dan Peggotty very much. Such a generous man willing to take on a family of a different flavor, adopting his niece and nephew and taking on the widow of his partner. He is quite humble but I found it quite funny that he only showed a temper (striking the table with his hand) was when people talked about his generosity. It's as if he doesn't want praise for doing what's right.
Definitely some foreshadowing with little Emily. I absolutely love the color picture of her walk on the beam. So beautiful!
Murdstone, the wicked stepfather, I am going to surmise.
Jean says it in message 103, but when I hear Murdstone, I hear it in French!I really enjoyed chapter 3, the foreshadowing of a sad life for little Em’ly is interesting. There’s humour, fun and charm but it wouldn’t be Dickens without some tragedy as well.
The Harold Copping illustration of Mr Peggotty and Em’ly in the other thread is beautiful!
Mod
It's by Jessie Willcox Smith, who painted quite a lot of colour illustrations of the children in Charles Dickens's novels. You might remember the one we loved of Paul and Florence at the seaside, at the header of the second thread for Dombey and Son :)
Bionic Jean wrote: "Lori wrote: "Definitely some foreshadowing with little Emily. I absolutely love the color picture of her walk on the beam. So beautiful!..."It's by Jessie Wilcox Smith, who pain..."
Yes! He is very, very talented and I love the doll-like look of Emily.
Mod
Er ... it looks as if I'd better correct the entry on her GR author page! This is the correct one:
Jessie Willcox Smith. She was an American "Golden Age" illustrator, and her career really began in the year Charles Dickens died. She was considered "one of the greatest pure illustrators", contributing to books and magazines during the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
Angela, I’m no expert but I’m thinking of Jane Eyre marrying Rochester and there were no guests, only the parson and the clerk. A little research (a la Google) finds that wasn’t unusual unless people were wealthy and wanted a big wedding. It doesn’t excuse why Davy wasn’t told but it would partly explain why he wasn’t there. I don’t think there’s any doubt that Mr Murdstone (whom I also heard in French, Jean/Janelle!) doesn’t like children. My astonishment is that Davy’s mother is so desperate to be married that she’d be unkind, if not cruel, to her own child.
I had not thought of Mr. Murdstone in French ---- but I will now LOL!! I had thought of "murderer". I like merde so much better.
Mod
Angela - We can see from the text why Davy was sent away, and what is happening here. Davy's mother Clara, as Trisha and Lori have deduced, just basically avoided telling Davy.
Whenever Clara can she leaves things to Peggotty, as she believes her to be far more sensible than she is. Peggotty is more like a mother figure than a servant in her eyes, and looks after both Davy and Clara! Davy's mother is like a child. She would leave the wedding arrangements to her future husband, and given what we know of Mr. Murdstone, it will suit his plans very well to not have the child there.
But of course Peggotty didn't want to tell Davy either, and put it out of her mind when she saw what a good time Davy was having with her brother, Dan. She dreads what might be about to happen, (as do we!) and wanted Davy to have a nice time.
Although Peggotty is strong and capable, as a menial servant she is no match for Mr. Murdstone: a gentleman who has caught Clara's eye with his handsome manly bearing, and flattery. Davy's mother is easily impressed by a man like Mr. Murdstone, and is enjoying being taken out and shown off, after a few years of staying at home with Davy and Peggotty. She likes to be told she is pretty, and her vanity is what Mr. Murdstone is capitalising on. We know from Aunt Betsey how naive both she and Davy's father were: "a couple of innocents".
So Clara is far too simple to mistrust anyone, and feels that she is providing a good father to Davy. Because she loves and spoils Davy, and so does Peggotty, she expects that Mr. Murdstone inevitably must, too.
Clara did live in a time when men were expected to be the dominant ones in the household and, given her apparent submissiveness, it may be easy for her to yield to Mr Murdstone. His attention to her was likely very flattering and also meant she would no longer have to be the decision maker. And she does appear to own a house. Nothing to be sneezed at if you’re a man seeking a wife.
Sue - these are really good points, especially regarding Clara owning the house.Chapter 4 - another heartbreaking chapter. Clara is clearly conflicted about the way that Davy is being treated and how she is expected to be with him. She’s scared of Murdstone as, I think, is everyone except Jane [I had never seen such a metallic woman] who has taken the running of Clara’s house from her. I think Clara is relieved in some ways but frustrated that she’s being moulded into such a helpless, spineless woman. We mustn’t forget that she’s probably still very young - mid 20s? We know that she’s educated because she’s home schooling Davy.
For me, the most chilling sentence regarding the Murdstones is The gloomy taint that was in the Murdstone blood, darkened the Murdstone religion, which was austere and wrathful.. How were they raised as children to turn out like this?
And now, poor Davy is off to boarding school. I’ll need to steel myself for Chapter 5.
Mod
Thanks Fiona for picking out Jane Murdstone, the "metallic lady", who "generally doesn't care for little boys" Her jewellery of "little steel fetters and rivets"; her bag with its heavy chain, snapping shut; the keys under her pillow ... such a great description. She's like a prison warder, and now she is in change of the keys, even sleeping on them.
We see again though, how simple and naive Clara is though, despite any schooling she may have had. Because of her innocence, she is also a victim, cowed and frightened, reproaching Davy, for "hurting someone she loved". She has been completely brainwashed and manipulated, and as David says, she now believes her own child now to be the wicked one. This is just her nature; she is still a child herself.
This is the chapter where we learn about Charles Dickens's own favourite books, which we are considering for our Autumn group read :)
The chapter begins with Mr. Murdstone telling Davy "if i have an obstinate horse or dog to deal with....I beat him....I make him wince and smart...I'll conquer that fellow and if it were to cost him all the blood he had, I should do it" and by the end of the Chapter Clara and Davy have both been conquered. It was so sad to read. My heart was breaking for Davy and Clara. The Murdstones are just the worst kind of people. They present well in society but underneath there is no goodness.
Backtracking to chapter 3 with illustrations I missed the other day, both by Fred Barnard -
"Dead, Mr Peggotty?"..."Drowndead."
"That's not it...that ship looking thing?"
One by Harold Copping -
Dan'l Peggotty and Little Em'ly
"Dead, Mr Peggotty?"..."Drowndead."
"That's not it...that ship looking thing?"
One by Harold Copping -
Dan'l Peggotty and Little Em'ly
Chapter 4 illustration -
The five thousand cheeses (canes he made it that day) by Fred Barnard 1872
The five thousand cheeses (canes he made it that day) by Fred Barnard 1872
It's hard not to curse over this chapter. I have some choice phrases for people who beat young boys and sisters who encourage it.
Random thoughts on chapter 4 -
It's interesting to me how Davy's mind sort of shuts down for a bit after the shock of coming home to so many changes. He goes to his room and sits on the bed -
I thought of the oddest things. Of the shape of the room, of the cracks in the ceiling, of the paper on the walls, of the flaws in the window-glass making ripples and dimples on the prospect, of the washing-stand being rickety on its three legs, and having a discontented something about it,
Clara Copperfield Murdstone has definitely been spoiled and cosseted, and her sense of immature entitlement shows here -
‘what a troublesome world this is, when one has the most right to expect it to be as agreeable as possible!’
Mr Murdstone is a horrid man. I'm willing to say now that he's evil along the lines of James Carker. Anyone who would beat a child - nope, inexcusable. He very much reminds me of a modern day cult leader - he's nice looking, to the outside world he's admirable and charming, he has a one word mantra (firmness), he has strong powers of persuasion, he twists the truth, he's preachy, he's violently cruel (physically, mentally, and emotionally). These bits stand out -
I knew as well that he could mould her pliant nature into any form he chose...
"It is not my fault...I was betrayed into it by another. Nor is it your fault. You were betrayed into it by another."
The gloomy taint that was in the Murdstone blood, darkened the Murdstone religion, which was austere and wrathful.
That second bit was spoken by Mr Murdstone when his sister kept saying she'd leave because Clara was upset. It has a liturgical rhythm to it, going back to the cult-like brainwashing idea he gives me.
There's some fun autobiographical things in this chapter that I enjoyed -
the first remarkable thing I observed in Miss Murdstone was, her being constantly haunted by a suspicion that the servants had a man secreted somewhere on the premises.
In the Dickens biography I'm reading, there is an odd but funny recollection -
Certainly we can believe a strange episode that [Dickens'] sister seems to have confirmed, when, for reasons that he could not remember, and in a period about which he is vague, "...we stealthily conducted the man with the wooden leg - whom we knew intimately - into the coal cellar..." this anecdote has all the hallmarks of some small intrigue between the servants "below stairs".
I do wonder if this vague recollection contributed to Miss Murdstone's search for strange men in the house. It's pretty funny either way.
Dickens lists his own favorite childhood books as those that David finds and reads in his bedroom. The next passage is ...a literal transcription from [Dickens'] own autobiographical fragment -
This was my only and my constant comfort. When I think of it, the picture always rises in my mind, of a summer evening, the boys at play in the churchyard, and I sitting on my bed, reading as if for life.
David recalls learning his alphabet -
To this day, when I look upon the fat black letters in the primer, the puzzling novelty of their shapes, and the easy good-nature of O and Q and S, seem to present themselves again before me as they used to do.
This is very similar to what Dickens once told his friend John Forster -
I faintly remember [my mother] teaching me the alphabet; and when I look upon the fat black letters in the primer, the puzzling novelty of their shapes, and the easy good nature of O and S, always seem to present themselves before me as they used to do.
It's interesting to me how Davy's mind sort of shuts down for a bit after the shock of coming home to so many changes. He goes to his room and sits on the bed -
I thought of the oddest things. Of the shape of the room, of the cracks in the ceiling, of the paper on the walls, of the flaws in the window-glass making ripples and dimples on the prospect, of the washing-stand being rickety on its three legs, and having a discontented something about it,
Clara Copperfield Murdstone has definitely been spoiled and cosseted, and her sense of immature entitlement shows here -
‘what a troublesome world this is, when one has the most right to expect it to be as agreeable as possible!’
Mr Murdstone is a horrid man. I'm willing to say now that he's evil along the lines of James Carker. Anyone who would beat a child - nope, inexcusable. He very much reminds me of a modern day cult leader - he's nice looking, to the outside world he's admirable and charming, he has a one word mantra (firmness), he has strong powers of persuasion, he twists the truth, he's preachy, he's violently cruel (physically, mentally, and emotionally). These bits stand out -
I knew as well that he could mould her pliant nature into any form he chose...
"It is not my fault...I was betrayed into it by another. Nor is it your fault. You were betrayed into it by another."
The gloomy taint that was in the Murdstone blood, darkened the Murdstone religion, which was austere and wrathful.
That second bit was spoken by Mr Murdstone when his sister kept saying she'd leave because Clara was upset. It has a liturgical rhythm to it, going back to the cult-like brainwashing idea he gives me.
There's some fun autobiographical things in this chapter that I enjoyed -
the first remarkable thing I observed in Miss Murdstone was, her being constantly haunted by a suspicion that the servants had a man secreted somewhere on the premises.
In the Dickens biography I'm reading, there is an odd but funny recollection -
Certainly we can believe a strange episode that [Dickens'] sister seems to have confirmed, when, for reasons that he could not remember, and in a period about which he is vague, "...we stealthily conducted the man with the wooden leg - whom we knew intimately - into the coal cellar..." this anecdote has all the hallmarks of some small intrigue between the servants "below stairs".
I do wonder if this vague recollection contributed to Miss Murdstone's search for strange men in the house. It's pretty funny either way.
Dickens lists his own favorite childhood books as those that David finds and reads in his bedroom. The next passage is ...a literal transcription from [Dickens'] own autobiographical fragment -
This was my only and my constant comfort. When I think of it, the picture always rises in my mind, of a summer evening, the boys at play in the churchyard, and I sitting on my bed, reading as if for life.
David recalls learning his alphabet -
To this day, when I look upon the fat black letters in the primer, the puzzling novelty of their shapes, and the easy good-nature of O and Q and S, seem to present themselves again before me as they used to do.
This is very similar to what Dickens once told his friend John Forster -
I faintly remember [my mother] teaching me the alphabet; and when I look upon the fat black letters in the primer, the puzzling novelty of their shapes, and the easy good nature of O and S, always seem to present themselves before me as they used to do.
Though I loathe Mr and Miss Murdstone, I wonder if their actions would have been as frowned upon in that time. Corporal punishment stwan advocated well into the 20th century in schools and homes and even now occasionally rears its ugly head. Dickens seems fairly progressive here and maybe had good parents in this regard. I do recall that David thought about saying something to the deacon or someone at church but didn’t have the opportunity ( I think this was before the beating).
Deep breaths and then sigh! Oh my what a chapter. I thought Florence's episodes of sorrow were sad. This is just so abrupt for such a small boy to endure. Changing his entire world to include his own mother's treatment of him is just mortifying. Sue, you are probably right about the acceptance of this type of punishment. Clara's behavior would probably be the one frowned upon. However, she is being brainwashed which should be frowned upon even more!
Cozy_Pug I marked many of the same passages and most likely exclaimed aloud as I read them. These Murdstone's are cut from a cloth I hope is no longer being used!
Now, Davy must leave his home which isn't very loving and playful anymore and go to boarding school. He won't know what to expect other than being away from his mother and Peggotty and missing them, but maybe he is relieved to not have to endure the "Firmness" any longer (except for holidays). I adore Peggotty for being so kind and loving to Davy. Can you just see the conversation through the keyhole? That was fantastic.
Sue - you make good points about Clara owning her house, and wives submitting to husbands at that time. Your comment made a light bulb go off in my head - Mr Dombey telling Edith that she must submit to him, now here's another controlling husband. In some ways I feel Mr Murdstone is worse because he has a deep vein of cruelty - Mr Dombey was more clueless in his arrogance.
Corporal punishment is still a thing. I attended a church school K-12, and then and now they use a paddle when deemed fitting.
Fiona - the bizarre metallic sister, Jane Murdstone! Dickens' descriptions of her are brilliant. I'm imaging her mouth snapping open and shut like her purse, and David's crocodiles lol!
Jean - I was so angry when Clara reproached David for "hurting someone she loved", because she didn't reproach her husband for caning her son! I know she's immature and pliable, but good grief that boiled my blood.
Bridget - you sum up the Murdstones perfectly - look good on the outside, rotten on the inside
Angela - I was horrified by what Mr Murdstone did to David, too. I'm glad David bit him, whether he intended to or it was instinct, at least he stood up to the horrid man.
Lori - I'm hoping, too, that David will have a better time of it at school than he has at home. And yes, that sweet but funny conversation through the keyhole with Peggotty! :D I wish David would run away to Dan'l Peggotty's home. He'd be loved, but it would probably set off a whole other nasty chain of consequences.
Corporal punishment is still a thing. I attended a church school K-12, and then and now they use a paddle when deemed fitting.
Fiona - the bizarre metallic sister, Jane Murdstone! Dickens' descriptions of her are brilliant. I'm imaging her mouth snapping open and shut like her purse, and David's crocodiles lol!
Jean - I was so angry when Clara reproached David for "hurting someone she loved", because she didn't reproach her husband for caning her son! I know she's immature and pliable, but good grief that boiled my blood.
Bridget - you sum up the Murdstones perfectly - look good on the outside, rotten on the inside
Angela - I was horrified by what Mr Murdstone did to David, too. I'm glad David bit him, whether he intended to or it was instinct, at least he stood up to the horrid man.
Lori - I'm hoping, too, that David will have a better time of it at school than he has at home. And yes, that sweet but funny conversation through the keyhole with Peggotty! :D I wish David would run away to Dan'l Peggotty's home. He'd be loved, but it would probably set off a whole other nasty chain of consequences.
Jane Murdstone brought to mind some steampunk creation she would have hated so much ! I could see her with all those add ons like people get up with for steampunk parties. But those outfits may show a bit of skin which would seriously outrage Jane.
Sue wrote: "Jane Murdstone brought to mind some steampunk creation she would have hated so much ! I could see her with all those add ons like people get up with for steampunk parties. But those outfits may sho..."
I'm literally crying with laughter at this :D
I'm literally crying with laughter at this :D
I think this quote was telling as it sheds light and sums up David's experience with the Murdstones in Chapter 4: "The natural result of this treatment, continued, I suppose, for some six months or more, was to make me sullen, dull and dogged. I was not made the less so, by my sense of being daily more and more shut out and alienated from my mother. I believe I should have been almost stupified but for one circumstance." And then he goes on to describe the collection of books that his father had left him and which he could use to escape from his circumstances.
I was thinking, as readers, isn't this just like us: I know I go to books as a means to escape from things and from the hustle and bustle of real world problems. I thought it was a nice moment in a rather trying and difficult time for David.
I agree with others about how Peggity is so kind and reassuring to David when he is "imprisoned" in the room and then she tells him he will be sent away to boarding school.
Franky wrote: "I think this quote was telling as it sheds light and sums up David's experience with the Murdstones in Chapter 4:
"The natural result of this treatment, continued, I suppose, for some six months o..."
I absolutely agree. I thought of that when reading this chapter - "reading as if for life". Reading has always been my escape from the world, stress, personal difficulties. You make a great point that it gives us a connection to David.
"The natural result of this treatment, continued, I suppose, for some six months o..."
I absolutely agree. I thought of that when reading this chapter - "reading as if for life". Reading has always been my escape from the world, stress, personal difficulties. You make a great point that it gives us a connection to David.
Sue wrote: "Though I loathe Mr and Miss Murdstone, I wonder if their actions would have been as frowned upon in that time. Corporal punishment stwan advocated well into the 20th century in schools and homes an..."Sue, & others, made good points about corporal punishment. It is easy to judge it now, but much harder to understand how it was viewed then. I remember my dad telling me that he & his brothers accepted corporal punishment as it was quick. They sometimes considered whether what they wanted to do was worth the risk of punishment. Their most important rule was never complain - if punished at school, there was no point telling their parents as that would have led to another punishment for the same misbehaviour!
Personally, in the story I thought that locking David in a room alone for so long was much more cruel than the physical punishment.
Trisha, I think Murdstone knew that too and was effectively breaking Clara of the “habit” of loving and defending David by keeping him locked away until he was sent away to school. To confine a child like that and only let him see a woman he doesn’t really know was so cruel. And Murdstone knows it’s a major punishment.
Sue wrote: "Though I loathe Mr and Miss Murdstone, I wonder if their actions would have been as frowned upon in that time. Corporal punishment stwan advocated well into the 20th century in schools and homes an..."It’s the old adage, isn’t it? Spare the cane and spoil the child.
Trisha wrote: "Sue wrote: "Though I loathe Mr and Miss Murdstone, I wonder if their actions would have been as frowned upon in that time. Corporal punishment stwan advocated well into the 20th century in schools ..."Even in the 1970s, the tawse- leather belt - was still being used in Scottish schools and boy, did it hurt! The best teachers only had to bring it out and put it on their desks to shut us up. Reflecting on that last sentence, the best teachers didn’t need a belt at all.
Mod
We must remind ourselves that whatever our experiences have been, we must not look at this episode and judge Mr. Murdstone through 21st century eyes! Also please bear in mind that it is being told by the older David, remembering how he felt as young Davy, the victim.
(Interestingly for this part, we do get the older David's view too - he remembers Mr. Murdstone:
"He walked me up to my room slowly and gravely—I am certain he had a delight in that formal parade of executing justice—and when we got there, suddenly twisted my head under his arm."
i.e. present tense, not "I was certain he had a delight ..." - he has imposed his adult view on the child's.)
However, Mr. Murdstone is the archetypal Victorian gentleman of his class, believing that a wife needs to be "instructed" and that children learn best by being beaten into submission. The savagery came because he himself was in pain from David's bite!
English gentleman were taught to be leaders of the world, with positions all across the British Empire. The way to instill this was to be strict and become accustomed to hardships. Even now, the Royal family send their children to strict boarding schools, (eg. Gordonstoun) with a spartan regime.
Cozy_Pug (and Angela)- If he had been "soft" on David, Mr. Murdstone would feel he was not doing his duty. Furthermore, if Clara, "his wife", had the temerity to "reproach her husband for caning her son", as you suggest, she might well have gained a well-deserved slap, or been banished to another room.
In the eyes of Victorian society, she would have been badly in need of some sort of instruction herself. There could easily then have been a scene where Mr. Murdstone was talking to his gentleman friends - perhaps even in the presence of their wives - where they all advise him that he needed to take his wife in hand! This would have been appropriate for the time, and read with approval by Charles Dickens's readers. Although I understand your feelings, it really is necessary to look at this through a 19th century lens!
Lovely illustrations! Thank you :)
Just to add that there might have been a bit of foreshadowing about Clara, when she says:
(view spoiler)
Fiona wrote: "... Even in the 1970s, the tawse- leather belt - was still being used in Scottish schools ..."I didn’t know that, Fiona - I’m shocked to learn it was still in use. I’m very glad there was no tawse in English schools then. I never experienced corporal punishment as a pupil & would have been horrified if expected to use it when I started teaching.
Chapter 5 illustrations -
The friendly waiter and I, by Phiz 1849
My musical breakfast, by Phiz 1849
Peggoty burst from the hedge, Fred Barnard 1872
Barkis drives David to Yarmouth, Harold Copping 1924
The friendly waiter and I, by Phiz 1849
My musical breakfast, by Phiz 1849
Peggoty burst from the hedge, Fred Barnard 1872
Barkis drives David to Yarmouth, Harold Copping 1924
Jean - you're right, I'm reacting to the caning and punishment from our current day point of view. Same with Clara's position as a wife at the time of the story. It's so hard to think of a time though when that was normal and acceptable :(
Fiona - I've not heard of a tawse before, I'm not sure which would be more painful - that leather belt or the wooden paddle in my old school. Yikes!
Chapter 5 had some funny, lighter bits to offset the dark bits. Peggotty bursting through the bush, hugging David so hard she burst off all her dress buttons lol, Barkis' romantic interest in Peggotty, and I love the letter David wrote - so funny -
wrote a note to Peggotty, which ran thus: ‘My dear Peggotty. I have come here safe. Barkis is willing. My love to mama. Yours affectionately. P.S. He says he particularly wants you to know—BARKIS IS WILLING.’
David seems so nice and trusting - he sensed immediately that Mr Murdstone was not a good man, but he's fooled by the waiter who eats his meal. I wonder if Mr Murdstone was so powerfully, obviously menacing that David picked up on it straightaway. The episode with the waiter is amusing, but I have a bad feeling others out in the world away from Blunderstone will also take advantage of David.
The scene where David eats breakfast at the almshouse feels very much like a fairytale. Old women, poor, a man plays a flute (badly lol) and with his full stomach David dozes off. I did wonder if this was going to be a kidnap situation, but they seem to be good people. I do love David's imagination in describing Mr Mell's flute playing -
When he had put up his things for the night he took out his flute, and blew at it, until I almost thought he would gradually blow his whole being into the large hole at the top, and ooze away at the keys.
So, back to perception - it had to be Mr Murdstone who planned the sign for David to wear. That seems unusually cruel, even for that time. Or was it not uncommon to do such a thing to a child?
Fiona - I've not heard of a tawse before, I'm not sure which would be more painful - that leather belt or the wooden paddle in my old school. Yikes!
Chapter 5 had some funny, lighter bits to offset the dark bits. Peggotty bursting through the bush, hugging David so hard she burst off all her dress buttons lol, Barkis' romantic interest in Peggotty, and I love the letter David wrote - so funny -
wrote a note to Peggotty, which ran thus: ‘My dear Peggotty. I have come here safe. Barkis is willing. My love to mama. Yours affectionately. P.S. He says he particularly wants you to know—BARKIS IS WILLING.’
David seems so nice and trusting - he sensed immediately that Mr Murdstone was not a good man, but he's fooled by the waiter who eats his meal. I wonder if Mr Murdstone was so powerfully, obviously menacing that David picked up on it straightaway. The episode with the waiter is amusing, but I have a bad feeling others out in the world away from Blunderstone will also take advantage of David.
The scene where David eats breakfast at the almshouse feels very much like a fairytale. Old women, poor, a man plays a flute (badly lol) and with his full stomach David dozes off. I did wonder if this was going to be a kidnap situation, but they seem to be good people. I do love David's imagination in describing Mr Mell's flute playing -
When he had put up his things for the night he took out his flute, and blew at it, until I almost thought he would gradually blow his whole being into the large hole at the top, and ooze away at the keys.
So, back to perception - it had to be Mr Murdstone who planned the sign for David to wear. That seems unusually cruel, even for that time. Or was it not uncommon to do such a thing to a child?
Trisha wrote: "Fiona wrote: "... Even in the 1970s, the tawse- leather belt - was still being used in Scottish schools ..."I didn’t know that, Fiona - I’m shocked to learn it was still in use. I’m very glad ther..."
I thought it was banned mid 70s, Trisha, but I’ve just googled and discovered it wasn’t banned in state schools until 1987!!!!! At 12 years old, my friend and I got 3 of the belt each from our physics teacher for larking around while he was out of the room. He was a large man and frankly, seen with hindsight, it was nothing short of assault.
Dickensians!
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I will try to remember my comment.
I loved the way Davy took us on a tour of his home as it was definitely from the eyes of a child.
I thought the talk about marriage with Peggotty was a bit of foreshadowing of what's to come. Where would a small child get the idea to talk about marriage? I know he's a clever boy! He made it know how clever he was when he refused to shake Mr. Murdstone's hand and then used the wrong hand! Loved it! He knows something's not right with this guy!
Also, Peggotty is not pleased about Clara wearing her pretty dresses. I know by this time it's been several years since her husband's death, so she shouldn't still be expected to wear mourning dresses. Peggotty is most likely not pleased with Clara's behavior as we've said she is easily taken by a man like Murdstone.