Dickensians! discussion
Buddy Reads
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Buddy read of David Copperfield May 2021 onwards with Cozy_Pug, Sue, Bridget, Fiona and Jenny
Wow three years is a long time. I wasn't expecting him to be gone that long, but it does make sense that it would take him that long to come to terms with the relationships of his "undisciplined heart" ie: Dora and Steerforth, and gain the perspective that comes with maturity.I can't quite tell if he is being mature about his feelings for Agnes, or if he is wallowing in regret. If she does still have feelings for him, it would be wrong for him to withhold his love just because he thinks the moment passed. Then again if she's moved on, he would ruin the friendship by expressing his love. Does he know for sure she doesn't have romantic feelings for him, based on their correspondence? He is very vague about that. I guess that's great tension building on Dickens part. Its definitely keeping me wanting to read more.
I meant to say that I felt quite disappointed that David included Steerforth in the list of those he is mourning. Steerforth didn’t deserve his continuing loyalty.
Lori wrote: "A very reflective chapter for David. I think this is something everyone goes through in life - weighing our past and feeling regrets, thinking about those we've lost and what might have been. I t..."
Lori, I didn't read your post before I wrote my own. I really liked how you pointed out that David was in a metaphorical and physical valley in Switzerland. And its so true that most people experience a period of self reflection like this before they make leaps into maturity. I can't wait to see what happens when David gets back to England.
I wonder if it’s Steerforth he’s mourning or the illusion he believed in as a young boy. He idolised Steerforth when he was little. It can be hard to let go and face reality.
Janelle, I'm thinking David is mourning for what Steerforth once was and what he could have been and never will be. I think this is a normal reaction to the shock of losing someone you used to believe in regardless of what harm they caused or inflicted. Steerforth made some very bad decisions and if you think about it, his upbringing may have played a huge part in them. It's a question of nature vs. nurture with Steerforth but the same could be said of David. David had a loving mother who died and he struggled to find his way until getting to Aunt Betsey who provided such wonderful care to him. You could say that David's childhood with the Murdstones could have scarred him for life but it didn't. If we compare Steerforth's to David's nurturing, I would say David was much better off without the luxurious house and a doting mother who gave everything he wanted and could do no wrong. David understood hardship and this has provided him with a compassionate nature. I'm not on Steerforth's side necessarily, or defending him for his past behavior, just looking at the root of how he may have ended up the way he was.
I like all of these thoughts! Part of the time I get frustrated that David would mourn Steerforth at all. Part of the time I think David is mourning the loss of his illusion of Steerforth (he never really took the time to mourn that when it happened did he. He was too busy wooing Dora and working a crazy number of jobs to make ends meet). And absolutely I believe what Lori said about mourning what could have been and now will never be. I think maybe its all these things at once. Maybe that's why it was a three year long process for David. Also Lori, I love the comparison of David and Steerforth as children. Its so true they both started off with single mothers and no fathers, but ended up with really different paths after that. Makes you wonder how David would have turned out if just Clara Copperfield raised him, without the Murdstones there.
Speaking of the Murdstones, I bet they turn up again in the next couple chapters. Oh, I can't wait to see what happens there!!
I agree that David is mourning the Steerforth that might have been, but also the young Steerforth who helped make the horrible experience at school bearable. It’s almost as if Steerforth were two separate people in David’s experience, one known as a young boy, the other known when he was a young man.
Thanks to all for this helpful discussion on why David mourned Steerforth. I felt his behaviour towards Emily and the grief he caused should have been enough for him to draw a line but we shouldn’t judge others by our own standards and David is such a loyal friend.
Chapter 59 Well, you were right, Bridget. Hopefully we won’t have to meet the Murdstones again but we know what’s become of them and their behaviour hasn’t changed at all.How wonderful for Traddles! Such a lovely man and fully deserving of a happy life with Sophy, the dearest girl! Her family take advantage of both of them but they’re happy to be at their beck and call and that’s all that matters. I’m not sure why David thought Traddles would be such a professional success as there’s nothing in his background or character to suggest that would happen. I suppose it’s just David’s profound faith in anyone who is important to him.
It was fun remembering the ‘old’ Aunt Betsey. She’s my favourite character.
Wow, with only 5 chapters to go before the end, it seems as if Dickens is beginning to wrap things up starting with Traddles finally getting married and seeing a glimpse of what his life will be like and then with a coincidental meeting of an old "friend", doctor, who relays information about the Murdstones. It seemed an odd meeting, out of the blue, with Dr. Chillip who just so happens to live next to the Murdstones now. What a fanatic Mr. Murdstone seems to have become. He almost sounds crazy because I don't think I know of any religion he would aspire to to be rational. I'm now thinking he sounds like a cult leader. I do love Aunt Betsey too, Fiona! I can't wait to see Maggie Smith playing her in the movie!
Oh and I was so excited to hear a familiar town in this chapter. Dr. Chillip is now living in Bury St. Edmunds in Suffolk. Many moons ago, I lived for 3 years in RAF Lakenheath just a quick 15 mile drive to Bury St. Edmunds. Took me back to my lovely time there!
I visited Bury St Edmonds as a tourist, Lori, some 50 years ago during my first trip to England, and have a photo of the churchyard, not great since taken on a camera of the time.I enjoyed this chapter: the view of the Traddles couple and their extended family, Dr Chillip and his wife’s oh so accurate observations of Mr and Miss Murdstone and their ruthless religiosity.
Yes Dickens is summing up now. And I did see the title of the next chapter which I’m looking forward to reading, “Agnes.”
I feel sorry for the new Mrs Murdstone. I was surprised this conversation with Mr Chillip didn’t make David angry that some other poor woman was being treated as badly as his mother! I hope there is a final comeuppance for the Murdstones, this seems a thread that Dickens should end more satisfyingly for me anyway.
My goodness, I had no idea yesterday when I referenced the Murdstones that they would appear today. How funny is that! I too felt disappointed that the best comeuppance we will get for the Murdstones is "they undergo a continual punishment; for they are turned inward, to feed upon their own hearts, and their own hearts are vey bad feeding". Its not satisfying, but its probably realistic.Poor Sophy -- I couldn't help thinking of Cinderella as David described the litany of requests her sisters make on her in the course of a day. I hope the sisters leave, as Traddles said they would, but I'm not certain.
Did I understand correctly that Traddles and Sophy live in his law office? Was that a thing people did then?
I've never heard of Bury St. Edmunds, but you all inspired me to know more, so I googled it. What a picturesque little town. Gorgeous cathedral. How fun for you all to see it referenced :-)
Bridget - I think Traddles just doesn’t have enough money to live anywhere else. I doubt - but am happy to be corrected - that it was normal to live on your premises because otherwise there wouldn’t have been such a kerfuffle when a potential client (David) came to the door.I agree with you about the Murdstones. The problem is they don’t just suck the life out of themselves, they inflict it on others who can’t oppose them.
I’ll join in praise of Bury St Edmonds which I visited perhaps 15 years ago with my Mum on a trip to Suffolk. I thought it was a lovely city and really enjoyed wandering around the cathedral. I’m looking forward to seeing the new film now.
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Just a couple of things ...
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"‘Has a body come ashore?’
He said, ‘Yes.’"
The part where David says he is "lying with his head upon his arm, as I had often seen him lie at school" adds to the poignancy of David's grief. He had been blind to a part of Steerforth's true nature, even though all along Steerforth had tried to warn him. He only saw him as a golden boy, and idealised him, not seeing the flawed person (as we all are) underneath.
LINK HERE for my summary of that chapter. It's worth checking there now and again, as Bridget says, even if all you do is look at the illustrations! All are linked to comment 1. Lots of info and discussions there too.
The flag was an honour. We may think Ham was more deserving - but he was not a gentleman! As much as anything, the flag was to honour Steerforth's family, and was a gesture to his status.
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As Janelle said, emigration was a big thing at that time. In fact Charles Dickens very much approved and was involved in projects to encourage this emigration. Remember the young women from Urania Cottage who I mentioned earlier were sent there with a bit of money, to make a fresh start.
Chapter 60 Aaaaaaargh, David!!Jean - thanks for your input and the links. Invaluable as usual.
Oh David! At what point will you put your noble perceptions behind you and speak up and speak your heart for once. Agnes is giving you so many opportunities to declare your love to no avail. Your trying to protect your "brother/sister" relationship and not cause her pain is only causing her more pain.I wish he could really hear Aunt Betsey saying "Blind, Blind, Blind."
Three years of mourning and maturing and David still has a difficult time speaking up for himself. He's just not courageous enough I suppose. I would think that it is his responsibility to make the first move, so to speak, as that would have been a faux pas for a lady.
I agree completely Lori! Fiona said it best, Aaaaaargh!! He's just so passive all the time. He's definitely more mature because he's not romanticizing his relationships. But he's still so passive. When Aunt Betsy says she thinks Agnes is in love with someone, I thought she meant David. Did anyone else think that? Or is it just me being hopeful?
Jean, thanks for the info on the Flag at Steerforth's death. Like you said I wondered why Ham didn't have a flag, as he seemed more deserving. But it totally makes sense now.
I just read the original David Copperfield thread where someone mentioned what David and Agnes need is a little help from Mr. Dick who wouldn't be so Blind, blind, blind!! Brilliant!
Oh yes! Brilliant idea to have Him give the pair a prod.
Bridget - yes, I’m sure Aunt Betsey meant David but why doesn’t she point it out to him instead of waiting for him to tumble to it? Surely an elderly aunt is allowed to be forthright with her nephew? All - yes! Bring on Mr Dick, please!
Chapter 61 Traddles’ description of his happy marriage must surely have David longing for the same?The visit to the prison reflects Dickens’ well known work on prison reform and the solitary confinement method he encountered in the US. I wasn’t surprised to meet Heep in there but I was surprised to find Littimer in the next cell. I hadn’t thought of him as criminal particularly but just doing Steerforth’s bidding. Again, David keeps his lips sealed when he should have challenged Littimer and Heep’s - the Immaculates (I love the sarcasm!) - ridiculous accusations. It’s typical that they see everyone to blame but themselves.
As Jean said, Dickens is tying up all the loose ends. The only satisfactory ending though will be if David wakes up and declares his love for Agnes.
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Test - my notifications tell me that everyone has contributed since Jean’s above but I can’t see anything. Goodreads bugs again! Very frustrating as I’m desperate to know what your thoughts are.
I was thinking exactly that, Fiona, how David must be happy for Traddles but maybe a little sad or even jealous. Sophy is the complete opposite of Dora in every way, a very capable wife for Traddles.I was really underwhelmed with this chapter. I understand the stance Dickens is providing here on the state of prisons as he did in Dombey and Son with the Charitable Grinders as Jean mentioned. Of course using Heep as an example of a model prisoner with his scathing look he gave David was pretty mocking of the system. I was hoping a harsher sentence for him would give him a proper comeuppance, but he's behaving the same inside prison scamming the system because really that's what he is and no amount of pampering is going to bring true repentance.
Seeing Littimer there was surprising but the end Dickens gave Miss Mowcher is quite good!
I do wish David had stood up for himself and for Agnes and Mr. Wickfield - another passive move by David. But then, maybe it's not the right time or place for that. Maybe Heep and Littimer are only spitting out ammunition against David to see if they can stir him up.
Fiona, I don’t show any messages between your note and Jean’s. I have been getting odd notifications lately and sometimes I get one that may be for my own message.I too enjoyed seeing Heep and Littmer in prison. My only fear: that somehow Heep would run into Micawber once he is transported to Australia.
On the other hand, it’s nice to see that Micawber is doing so well that he is settling some debts.
I've noticed some glitches for a while now so hopefully it won't last too much longer. I've given up on looking at my notifications and going straight to the group thread. Fiona, sorry I'm later in responding today. I try to remember to post early so you have time to read and respond. Then Janelle, I'm not sure of the time difference.
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When I tap the bell, the notifications it’s showing are more than 10 hours old, so I just go to discussions and check the unread messages. It’s been like this for days.The prison chapter was a bit weird for me. Dickens seems to be having a go at prison management but I thought he didn’t like the solitary confinement prisons (I think they were called New Model, or something like that.) They had one at Port Arthur, the convict prison in Van Diemens Land (now Tasmania).
Here’s a link to the Victorian web, Dickens writing in American Notes by Charles Dickens: American Notes by Charles Dickens on the solitary prison he visited in Philadelphia.
Thanks Janelle, I found the American Notes on my Complete Works of Charles Dickens for kindle. Would be fascinating to read his thoughts on the places he visited.
All - definitely gremlins at work!Lori - don’t worry about the timing of your notes. It honestly hasn’t been a problem at all.
Sue - I also worried about Heep catching up with Micawber in Australia, and about Littimer finding Emily.
Janelle - thank you for the link. Very interesting.
All again - I have only read a couple of other Dickens’ novels so I’m a novice really and have very much appreciated and benefited from the depth of knowledge you all have.
Chapter 62 At last! And Agnes laid her head upon my breast, and wept; and I wept with her, though we were so happy. And this reader joined them!
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Ah such a wonderful chapter! Oh happy day! What a reaction by Aunt Betsy! And so lovely to hear the Strong’s and Traddle’s were at the wedding. Surely Peggotty, Bestey and Mr. Dick were there too?
Perhaps the Traddles and the Strongs were mentioned because they aren’t family.Loved how David’s/Trot’s horse is allowed where the donkeys can’t go!
Sorry I missed all the comments yesterday, and the glitches with GR too. Crazy busy day at my house, and just couldn't get to the computer. About the prison chapter, I had the same thought as Sue - what will happen when Heep and Littmer end up in Australia! It was also so fun to see Mowcher one final time.About today's Chapter 62 - Hurray they finally got married - and didn't need Mr. Dick's help ;-)
I thought maybe they got married in London and that's why Peggotty, Aunt Betsy and Mr. Dick weren't at the wedding.
I did have one moment of frustration with David, when he said
"Agnes...if you had been more mindful of yourself, and less of me, when we grew up together, I think my heedless fancy would never have wandered from you."
I might be misinterpreting this, but it sounds to me like he is saying its Agnes's fault that he went off and married Dora and made all the other ridiculous choices he made.
Bridget, I noticed that too. I guess he wished that Agnes had been more obvious in her feelings for him when they were younger but that might have been difficult given how obsessed David was with other matters.
David seemed to fall in love with almost every woman he met when he was young! I don’t know that Agnes being more obvious would’ve changed that. I assumed that Peggotty, Aunt Betsy and Mr Dick were at the wedding because they are like immediate family. I think he just listed the other guests. I doubt those three would’ve missed it.
Bridget/Sue - hard to know how to interpret that sentence. I read it as David saying that if Agnes hadn’t pandered to his every whim, eg encouraged his infatuation for others, he might have recognised that he loved her instead. You’re right though, essentially he’s not taking responsibility for failing to see what was in front of his eyes. Men never want the safer option though, do they?!
Chapter 63 I’m almost sorry to say that it’s the penultimate chapter. How lovely to meet with Dan Peggotty again and to hear all the news of those in Australia. We must have misunderstood Emily’s condition as I’m sure there would have been mention of her child had their been one. I did find it odd that David was asking for news of the others, eg Martha, Mrs Gummidge, as surely there has been correspondence over the years with news of everyone? I know that writing it this way is better for the reader and for the book’s ending but it doesn’t seem particularly logical.
I had doubted Mr Micawber’s ability to do well anywhere but I’m delighted to have been wrong and to find his family thriving and himself as verbose as ever!
Dickens really is tying up loose ends when he brings in Mr, now Dr, Mell. I had to look up my character list to remember that he was a master at Salem House. That is so long ago now.
Tomorrow is the last chapter and the end of this buddy read. I’m excited but also a little sad.
Me too, Fiona. This has been wonderful!So Emily won’t marry but stays true to her character as a helper to those in need. And I would have thought the child would be mentioned too. Thanks for reminding about Mr. Mell. I knew it was a familiar name.
Yes, I thought the absence of mention of a child was telling. And everyone seems to have done so well in Australia, including the McCawber children.I was surprised to see the length of the chapter for tomorrow. I have length in time and it comes in at over an hour, if I read it correctly. Though I am sorry to see this book end, I am finding these last chapters a bit anticlimactic after the high levels of activity and tension of past sections. I’m looking forward to future reads with all of you. This reading just cements how much I enjoy him and this format is great.
Dickensians!
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David Copperfield (other topics)A Message from the Sea (other topics)
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Little Dorrit (other topics)
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I think this is a wonderful transition for David. I do believe that he's grown much through these past events and all of his sorrow. That's really what is meant by getting through the valleys in order to move on in a stronger way. David spent 3 months in a valley in Switzerland which it seems is where he came to his realizations about Agnes. The fact that he decides that he can't go back and expect her to love him the way he now realizes he did and does, is an example of his growth and maturity. He has now come to accept that he may have ignored any feelings Agnes may have had earlier on as he was too immature and was selfish for his own feelings - ie for Dora.
I believe David will return to England a new man.