Dickensians! discussion
Buddy Reads
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Buddy read of David Copperfield May 2021 onwards with Cozy_Pug, Sue, Bridget, Fiona and Jenny
Yes, Fiona, I can’t imagine we’ve seen the last of Steerforth. This was a very touching chapter. Mr. Omer was also a bright light and compassionate wanting to help Martha however he can. I suppose the best option is to take Emily to a place she can start fresh and Daniel will be able to be near the sea in Australia. Mrs. Gummidge will be a welcome addition to their new life. Ham has demonstrated how he will put Emily first even now. He finds fault with himself for her troubles. How sad but such an upstanding young man. Did he say he would never marry? I’m not sure I read that part right?
Chapter 52 At a time when criminals and others were being transported to Australia by the boatload, it seems strange that the Peggottys and the Micawbers should think it such a land of milk and honey. I am cynically wondering if Dickens was being paid to promote it? I’m not joking.Hurray for Wilkins Micawber! Heep’s villainy is exposed at last. Hurray for Traddles too! He did well to keep everything from David, considering how close they are, although I know he’ll have been bound by his professional ethics.
Fiona, I wondered exactly the same thing about Australia. I didn't think it was meant for relocation unless you were sent/transported for criminal activity. So yes, that seems an odd choice.I'm surprised Heep sat there and took it. He understood he no longer needed the pretenses where mother kept trying to keep them up. He really doesn't care how many people he hurt or frauded. Did I also understand that Aunt Betsey DID invest her money via Mr. W and now she'll be able to get it back? Seemed Uriah knew all about her husband.
I was wondering about Heep’s reference to Aunt Betsey’s husband. Heep seems to know everything about everyone. And yes, I think she did use Wickfield for her investments. So I wonder if she may someday get money back if Heep stole her funds.
It sounded to me like Heep was able to take control of all the properties Mr. Wickfield was managing (including Aunt Besty's property) and then created the "idea" that they were bad investments made by Mr. Wickfield when really Heep was using the money for himself. That would make sense given Aunt Betsy's ruin happened around the same time that Uriah Heep infultraited Wickfield's business. But its hard to get a firm grasp on what exactly happened, especially because the very verbose Mr. Micawber is the one explaining it! God Bless Aunt Betsey that she never admitted its was Wickfield who lost her money, so as to spare Agnes and Mr. Wickfield's feelings! I think Mr. Micawber has redeemed himself now. And hurray Traddles who took a very active part in making the truth come to light. Once again David was a passive observer -- though I guess that's the appropriate role for the storyteller.
I’ve wondered about Dickens and Australia before. There definitely was an attitude that immigration was a good opportunity for the poor. I did find this for numbers from the Migration Heritage Centre NSW website:“About one third of migrants who came to Australia between 1830 and 1850 paid their own way. Convicts and settlers who came to Australia found that in comparison to Europe, conditions were very good and with hard work and determination they could prosper. They encouraged their relatives in England to come to Australia and enjoy the prosperity. Women migrants were also assisted to curb a gender imbalance in the colonies, to work as domestic servants and to foster marriages and childbirth. These migration schemes resulted in 58,000 people coming to Australia between 1815 and 1840.”
And in this case, it’s more appropriate for Traddles to do this as David is peripherally involved as being related to Betsey. And also known to despise Heep.
Now I understand Heep’s reference to Aunt Betsey. Thank you buddies!Janelle - thank you for the information which is very interesting. I should have known this really as I’ve read all of Kate Greenville’s books.
Chapter 53 Very moving. Dora is just as aware as David that their young love should have stayed as that. It’s very sad and is leaving David with terrible feelings of guilt over all the similar thoughts he’s had over the years. That’s the nature of losing a loved one sadly. There is always guilt.
I loved this one, if it’s possible to love a sorrowful chapter. Dickens wrote this perfectly from the short length (much like their short marriage) to the beautifully crafted descriptions of two lovers spending the last moments together. The end was so sentimental and sweet with Jip’s passing at the same time. I can appreciate Dora and understand how loving she really was even though she was so very much a child. She was a loyal daughter, wife, and friend when you look at her whole life. Does anyone wonder what she may have said to Agnes? I do! To not be there with her when she passed, David will grieve over.
Janelle wrote: "I’ve wondered about Dickens and Australia before. There definitely was an attitude that immigration was a good opportunity for the poor. I did find this for numbers from the Migration Heritage Cent..."Thanks for this Janelle, so interesting!
I have some specific thoughts about the conversation Dora may have had with Agnes and I’m looking forward to finding out whether or not I’m right. It is so sad that David wasn’t with Dora when she died but possibly she preferred that. I remember being told that when my mother died, that often people hold on until they are alone or until those they are very close to have left the room.
That's so true Sue. That's exactly how my grandmother was when she passed. She waited until everyone went home and then just let go. It was sad and also peaceful. I thought the way Dickens wrote this chapter was brilliant. I've always thought of Jip as Dora's "familiar" -- like the cats that witches sometimes have. Not that Dora was a witch, heavens no, but Dora was kind of like a fairy creature, and Jip was her familiar, so dying together made so much sense to me.
I'm of course wondering about the Dora/Agnes conversation too. (Dickens is the master of keeping his readers guessing.) Dora's multiple references to her empty chair and David's loneliness makes me think she is giving Agnes permission to fill that chair. Does anyone else think that??
Chapter 54 In the opening of the chapter, David says he is about to relate the events of an interval before I fully knew my own distress. The chapter sees relief for the Micawbers, the Wickfields and Aunt Betsey, financially and personally. It is dreadful to think David is going to face more grief so soon but that seems to be what he’s saying.When I read Mr Micawber’s letter at the end of the chapter, I thought Oh no! Not again! But fortunately the postscript is a happy one. You would have thought he might have destroyed the first letter and written a second, wouldn’t you? Not Mr Micawber! Full of drama and verbosity to the bitter end!
yes exactly Fiona, Micawber is always so full of words. That postscript had me laughing. I loved the image of Agnes "her gentle face bending down as from a purer region nearer Heaven, over my undisciplined heart, and softening its pain". And I heard echoes of Annie Strong's sentiments about love when she said "The first mistaken impulse of an undisciplined heart"
Do any of you read through the original David Copperfield thread? I try to, but I often fall behind. I just spent some time reading through it, and discovered that back in Chapter 51 (The Beginning of a Longer Journey) it was revealed that Emily is pregnant. I didn't pick up on that, did any of you? Now that I've read through Jean's summary post it makes so much sense.
Bridget, I am usually up to the current thread with our chapter reads but I got behind this weekend and stopped at 50. I just read through 51 and wish I had sooner. It was definitely subtle and I remember the reference from Aunt Betsey but didn't make a complete connection. You're right, though, what's been happening with Emily makes more sense. I hadn't even realized that David hasn't seen her and won't it sounds like and the pregnancy must be the reason.
I started with good intentions of reading the other threads but just couldn’t keep up. I didn’t miss Aunt Betsey’s reference. It made me pause but then I thought she must mean if Emily had a child in the future. As there was no other reference to her being pregnant - and I’ve just reread the chapter - that made sense to me. It makes more sense now though. Emigrate to somewhere you’re not known and no one will know your child is illegitimate.
Lori and Fiona, yes great insights! It makes sense too why Steerforth wanted Littimer to marry Emily. I think rich gentlemen who got the "help" pregnant often married those women off to their servants. At least, I feel like I've read books where that happens.
The fact that Steerforth attempted to marry Emily off to Littimer would have been the biggest clue to the Victorian reader as to the pregnancy. Now we know! These nuances are the reason I have loved reading Dickens with a knowledgeable group!!
All of this is very interesting. I wonder what Rosa was thinking about it. Perhaps she wasn’t surprised as Littmer may have told her about the proposed marriage. Of course she would have considered Emily a fool to refuse.
Bridget/Lori - yes, of course. I hadn’t thought of that reason for marrying her to Littimer.Sue - it’s also perhaps why Rosa behaved in such a particularly vile way towards Emily. She’s carrying Steerforth’s child and so will have a claim on him forever.
So true Fiona. That could explain why she behaved as she did.
Chapter 55 Such wonderful writing! It’s breathtaking! It was implicit at the beginning of the chapter that Ham would die but I didn’t expect it to be in such a heroic way and what a waste of his life to lose it trying to save Steerforth. Will David tell Emily about this? Is she better to know or not to know? It would be a relief surely to know that Steerforth can’t pursue her any longer but she already feels so guilty about Ham. Daniel must be told so maybe it will be his decision.
Rosa Dartle and Mrs. Steerforth will have to be told too. I don't envy David that conversation. Do you think Ham knew it was Steerforth out on the boat? If he did would he still have tried to save him? I think he would have, because Ham is such a good person.I too thought the writing was wonderful. This chapter reminded me of the train ride chapter in Dombey and Son. In that book the train ride symbolized Mr. Dombey's grief, and in this storm I see the same thing happening with David's grief. He has just lost Dora, a bunch of the people he loves are getting ready to move to Australia, he's moved out of his cottage....there is just a lot going on which he hasn't really processed yet "I was seriously affected, without knowing how much, by late events" So when the narrator describes the storm as "rending and upheaving of all nature" I got the feeling the storm was stirring up everything inside of David as well as in the physical world around him
Something within me, faintly answering to the storm without, tossed up the depths of my memory, and made a tumult in them
Beautiful, captivating writing. Dickens really knows how to keep a reader on their toes and he has done it so well here. It’s so vivid, you could feel the wind’s strength.Wonderful thoughts Bridget and Fiona. I would not want to be the one to tell Mrs. Steerforth and Rosa. David should tell Daniel and let him decide whether to tell Emily. I am torn about what would be best for her mental health. I loved the juxtaposition of the storm and David’s excitement/fear building up over Ham. I certainly did not expect this for either Ham or Steerforth. It makes me wonder if there is death in all of Dickens’ major works.
Bridget - very insightful. I took all this in without thinking about it enough.Lori\Bridget - although Rosa and Mrs Steerforth will have to be informed of Steerforth’s death, does it have to be David? All he needs to do is identify him and let the authorities do the rest. I doubt he’d be welcome in their home anyway but we’ll soon find out.
I’ve heard so much about Dombey and Son in this buddy read. I must read it next.
Fiona, I don’t think David should be the one to tell Mrs Steerforth. I agree with you that the authorities would do that. Dombey & Son was written just before this one and it’s a brilliant read!
Funny how I interpreted this differently. When Steerforth was found, the way the description was written led me to believe he was found in the wreckage of Peggotty’s old boat.But, he led me to the shore. And on that part of it where she
and I had looked for shells,, two children-on that part of it where
some lighter fragments of the old boat, blown down last night, had
been scattered by the wind-among the ruins of the home he had
wronged-I saw him lying with his head upon his arm...
I thought he had returned to Yarmouth and taken refuge in the now deserted boat, and died there.
Interesting, Sue. I thought this meant that he had been brought ashore and laid there.
It was the mention of the ruins of those he had wronged that led me to my interpretation. And I do seem to go my own way at times :-)
Sue wrote: "It was the mention of the ruins of those he had wronged that led me to my interpretation. And I do seem to go my own way at times :-)"Let’s just say it’s open to interpretation ;-)
Chapter 56 So it was David who had to carry the news and Steerforth himself home to his mother. Rosa’s reaction is madness and did she not realise that Mrs Steerforth was having a stroke? (Much older Scots than I would refer to a stroke as a shock which is why I’m assuming that is what happened.) I found David’s preparation of the room and the lifting of James’s hand to his heart, after all that had happened, very moving.
And I now must cede my poetic interpretation of Steerforth’s death, having read the new chapter. It seems he must have been on the ship.Each of the women reverted to type, in a way. Mrs Steerforth initially gracious to David, then essentially removed herself from Rosa’s rants by appearing to become catatonic. Rosa attacks the ultimate enabler of the man she would have loved.
Another splendidly written chapter. I kept highlighting my kindle because the language was so good. There’s many words used that might indicate a stroke, but I hadn’t picked up on that but it’s certainly possible. Looking back some words in regards to Mrs. Steerforth - stiffly, wide stare, motionless, rigid, unchangeable, staring, so I’m not certain. Was it Mrs. Steerforth who said, “A curse upon you”?
Rosa spoke with much truth and gave her side of the story with Steerforth. What a bitter woman. She stings with her words in this chapter.
I did not pick up on Mrs. Steerforth having a stroke, but now as I re-read it, that could make sense. Great insight Fiona. Maybe that's why Rosa bends down and loosens her dress?Rosa is such an interesting character to me. I often wonder why Dickens chose to create her? She brings out the complete lack of choices women had in Victorian times. Pretty much you had to get married -- at least in the upper class-- or end up a bitter old maid. She reminds me of Ms. Havisham (Great Expectations)in that way. Her madness and bitterness manifests a little differently, but its similar. Its genius how Dickens plays with these themes by creating characters who are similar, but then he makes them truly unique, otherwise it might have been formulaic.
Yes, beautifully written chapters. Rosa is such a bitter woman but I agree the limitations on women’s lives probably doesn’t help. I was upset at Ham’s treatment by Dickens. He dies a hero but doesn’t have any family with him at the end. Even David doesn’t stay.
Janelle, you’re so right. David actually showed more sentiment over Steerforth’s death, in the end, though I think that was, at least in part sadness for what might have been.
Janelle - such an important point, I think. Poor Ham, left on his own with none of his family around him. Thanks for pointing this out. Steerforth didn’t deserve David’s loyalty.
Chapter 57 Mrs Micawber’s faith in Mr Micawber is profound. She has him on the highest pedestal and has no doubts about his ability to prosper in Australia, his talents having not been recognised or appreciated in England. I doubt the leopard will change his spots though! I also feel very sad for Mrs Micawber that none of her family wants to be reconciled with her before she leaves the country.The description of the Micawbers’ travelling clothes is priceless! They are ready for the stormiest seas before they even board the ship! Dickens’ description of below deck is fantastic and is, I expect, an accurate portrayal of the conditions that emigrants had to tolerate.
I can’t agree with David’s decision not to tell the Peggottys about Ham. He was like a son to Daniel and so I don’t think it was David’s place to decide that he should leave for Australia thinking he was still alive. It would have been different if he had killed himself but he died trying to save others and I believe the Peggottys would have been proud of that. When is he going to tell Clara that her nephew is dead? Ever? They are such good people. I knew that they would take Martha with them.
The ending of the chapter is sad. David has said goodbye to two families that have been like family to him. What lies ahead doesn’t sound positive when he says The night had fallen on the Kentish hills when we were rowed ashore - and fallen darkly upon me.
As we reach the end of the book, am I wrong to hope for a happy or at least a positive ending?
Fiona, you’ve summed up my thoughts exactly. I was so shocked in the first two sentences that David wasn’t planning to tell Dan about Ham and then he gets Micawber in on the secret. Do we think he’ll be able to keep it? I agree that it wasn’t David’s place to shield them from this tragedy. But I’m guessing he believes it’s best to allow them the little bit of happiness they have as they start fresh. It seems as though Dickens has short-shafted Ham as Janelle pointed out. I’m sure he had a reason for it and maybe our modern minds don’t pick up on it.
Martha going with them is marvelous.
Janelle wrote: "Yes, beautifully written chapters. Rosa is such a bitter woman but I agree the limitations on women’s lives probably doesn’t help. I was upset at Ham’s treatment by Dickens. He dies a hero but does..."Yes, you are so right. What was that business about Steerforth's body being covered with a flag? Is that some sort of honor? I think Ham is more deserving of honors than Steerforth. And now the Peggotty family isn't even told. I'm sure he will have to tell Clara Peggotty after the boat leaves, but still.
I have my doubts (like Lori) that Mr. Micawber will be able to keep the secret of Ham's death. Wouldn't it have been easier for Daniel to hear it from David, who was with Ham at the end, and who has known them all so long. Such a bad choice on David's part.
One more thought- Uriah Heep is still out there bringing charges and getting Micawber arrested for the IOU’s right here at the end before emigrating. It seems in the chapter when he was found out, he just left without any repercussions at all. No punishment or anything. That doesn’t seem right with all of the evidence collected by Micawber for his fraud, etc. I’m not sure Dickens has wrapped up Heep’s story yet.
Lori wrote: "One more thought- Uriah Heep is still out there bringing charges and getting Micawber arrested for the IOU’s right here at the end before emigrating. It seems in the chapter when he was found out, ..."I was thinking the same, Lori. I don’t understand how Heep got off scot free.
Though I wish David had told Dan about Ham, I did have one thought as to why he might not. These people are about to set sail on a months long, difficult and dangerous trip to a completely new world. Learning this news at literally the last minute might have affected their ability to survive the journey. I would think Dan and Emily would be especially at risk of feeling guilty or depressed which could endanger them during the trip.
Chapter 58 As David works through his grief, he works out that Agnes is his soul mate. He thinks it through and comes to the conclusion that he mustn’t declare his love for her because it would change the sister\brother relationship they have and that he values so much. He writes -she was never to be mine. Really? How much will David really have changed in the three years that he’s been away? He has worked through his grief and his reputation as an author is continuing to grow but will his procrastination, and his tendency not to act as we think he should, have changed with his maturity?
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
David Copperfield (other topics)A Message from the Sea (other topics)
Bleak House (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
A Message from the Sea (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
John Forster (other topics)
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Sometimes Charles Dickens is actually criticised for this, in making a major character act so passively. For instance, why didn't David charge in heroically, and stop this happening? Isn't that what we would all have wanted him to do? But on reflection, we can see that every character is behaving according to their nature :)