Dickensians! discussion
Buddy Reads
>
Buddy read of David Copperfield May 2021 onwards with Cozy_Pug, Sue, Bridget, Fiona and Jenny
message 701:
by
Fiona
(new)
Jul 05, 2021 10:02AM
Chapter 47 What good men Daniel and David are! Daniel realises he judged Martha too hastily. As for Aunt Betsey’s visitor, no surprises there as I think we had all rumbled him. It would have been difficult for her to admit her past to David but he would know she’d understand.
reply
|
flag
Angela - I’m just going to ignore your contribution and not think about what it means but have to echo Jean’s post. We’re all holding ourselves back to buddy read. If you want to read ahead, great, but please don’t share your thoughts. Thanks :)
Mod
When reading ahead, please never reveal an important plot development. Accidental ones have occasionally happened in some reads, but the poster always deletes them as soon as they have been spotted. I have now deleted this one, and hope nobody reads it in their email, as I can do nothing about that.
I take this very seriously as a mod, and think other members do too. "Spoilers" do exactly that. They spoil the read for everyone else. To do it deliberately, even if the character's name is missed out, is just unfair. Another deliberate spoiler would lead to removal from the group.
Yes, I had figured out who the likely visitor to Aunt Betsey would be. David and Daniel dealt with Martha well. I am enjoying the footnotes in my Penguin kindle edition. It mentions that there were many suicides by prostitutes during the times of this novel. Even provides some numbers.
Wow, Sue how sad. I actually appreciated the ambiguity in Dickens' writing about what Martha was wanting to do in this chapter. I love how David and Daniel handled it. What perfect timing to follow her at this very moment while she headed toward the sea. Martha's character must be a nod to Dickens' work to help women in difficult situations - Urania Cottage was the place he helped to start- Jean has also talked about this before.
I am glad that she will now have a focus to put her energy with helping to find Emily.
Sue wrote: "Yes, I had figured out who the likely visitor to Aunt Betsey would be. David and Daniel dealt with Martha well. I am enjoying the footnotes in my Penguin kindle edition. It mentions that there we..."
That’s very sad to know, Sue, but thanks for sharing. I’m enjoying the social history aspect of this novel very much, particularly the descriptions of inner city London.
Mod
I was going to link to a link about Martha in the group read, but will rewrite a bit to put in the next post instead, (as the original post talks of events that have not happened - can't get away from the subject of spoilers today!)
Mod
Yesterday I mentioned "Urania Cottage": the home for "fallen women" that Charles Dickens had set up with his friend Angela Burdett-Coutts. The idea began a couple of years before this serial, in 1846, when Charles Dickens sent her a fourteen-page letter about his plan for setting up a safe house for women and girls working the London streets as prostitutes.
His idea was to begin with about thirty women:
"What they would be taught in the house, would be grounded in religion ... a system of training established, which, while it is steady and firm, is cheerful and hopeful. Order, punctuality, cleanliness, the whole routine of household duties - as washing, mending, cooking - the establishment itself would supply the means of teaching practically, to every one. But the ... monotonous round of occupation and self-denial ... would end ... in happy homes of their own."
A property was found and a matron was appointed, and in October 1847, Charles Dickens published a leaflet which he handed out to prostitutes encouraging them to apply to join Urania Cottage. Charles Dickens used to trawl the streets looking for women to enter Urania Cottage, and wrote about his "nightly wanderings into strange places". He interviewed every single one who responded to the leaflet, and if accepted she would be told that no one would ever mention her past to her.
They started with four, quickly rising to eight, again in Charles Dickens's own words:
"Among the girls were starving needlewomen, poor needlewomen who had robbed... violent girls imprisoned for committing disturbances in ill-conducted workhouses, poor girls from Ragged Schools, destitute girls who have applied at police offices for relief, young women from the streets - young women of the same class taken from the prisons after under-going punishment there as disorderly characters, or for shoplifting, or for thefts from the person: domestic servants who had been seduced, and two young women held to bail for attempting suicide."
Charles Dickens wanted them to wear bright colours, be well fed, and taught reading, writing, sewing, domestic work, cooking and laundering. His plan was that each of them would live at the cottage for about a year, and then be placed on an emigrant ship, by which time they would be much improved and able to manage their lives. The first three went, but after the six month voyage they disappeared.
In February 1849, just 3 months before the publication of the first installment of David Copperfield, Isabella Gordon arrived at Urania Cottage. Charles Dickens was very taken with her high spirits. She had a spark and vivacity, and was not at all intimidated by him. He enjoyed her company and wrote about my "friend Isabella Gordon".
However eventually Isabella went too far with her rebellious streak, and was sent away. Charles Dickens recalls:
"The girl herself, now that it had really come to this, cried, and hung down her head, and when she got out at the door, stopped and leaned against the house for a minute or two before she went to the gate - in a most miserable and wretched state. As it was impossible to relent, with any hope of doing good, we could not do so. We passed her in the lane, afterwards, going slowly away, and wiping her face with her shawl. A more forlorn and hopeless thing altogether, I never saw."
The most likely thing was that Isabella Gordon would return to a world of prostitution. Just a few days later Charles Dickens wrote that month's episode of David Copperfield, where Martha Endell was returning to her life as a prostitute, which we read earlier:
"Then Martha arose, and gathering her shawl about her, covering her face with it, and weeping aloud, went slowly to the door. She stopped a moment before going out, as if she would have uttered something or turned back; but no word passed her lips. Making the same low, dreary, wretched moaning in her shawl, she went away."
The character of "Martha" is obviously a tribute to Isabella - as Lori has said - to alert Charles Dickens's readers to the plight of these women. We'll have to wait a little while to see how this pans out for her.
Thanks for this, Jean. I have read some of this in Tomalin’s biography, but more details just makes it all the more powerful.
Mod
Just finished Chapter 47. I loved the way Dickens described the city as Dan and David were following Martha. Its classic Dickens writing, to me. No one sets the scene the way he does, and its one of my favorite things about his writing.So many comparisons to be drawn in this chapter as well. There is the comparison between Martha, who will take no money from Dan and David, and then there is Aunt Betsey's husband who leeches money from her all the time.
I thought of a second comparison (and this one may be off the mark) between Aunt Betsey and Mrs. Micawber. When Aunt Betsey tells David "I left him", it made me think of Mrs. Micawber declaring over and over she will never leave Mr. Micawber (though sometimes I think she should!). Two women in similar situations, making two different choices.
Great comparisons, Bridget. I hadn't thought of that. And Jean thanks so much for popping in today and providing us with some wonderful background on Dickens and the Urania Cottage. Your efforts here are above and beyond!
The imagery is so powerful in this chapter. The pull of the river for Martha was very upsetting for me. Dickens presents the despair of the poor with great sympathy.
Lori wrote: "Great comparisons, Bridget. I hadn't thought of that. And Jean thanks so much for popping in today and providing us with some wonderful background on Dickens and the Urania Cottage. Your efforts ..."
I second both of these comments. Thanks to all.
Mod
Lovely :)
Chapter 48 Poor David! Trying to change Dora was a Herculean task and completely unachievable. It’s just as well that he can accept her as she is. It seems that time is running out anyway. David has gained more insight with maturity. It’s interesting to read how he can reflect on what might have been without wishing that it was so.
Fiona wrote: "Chapter 48 Poor David! Trying to change Dora was a Herculean task and completely unachievable. It’s just as well that he can accept her as she is. It seems that time is running out anyway. David ha...""Herculean" is the perfect adjective. I also really liked "reflect on what might have been without wishing that it was so" wonderful way to describe this chapter. Thanks Fiona
I liked how David realized he had to change himself and not Dora. That's truthful advice for all of us, I think.I thought the writing of Dora's miscarriage was beautiful "The spirit fluttered for a moment on the threshold of its little prison, and, unconscious of captivity, took wing" I got a lump in my throat reading that.
Bridget wrote: "I liked how David realized he had to change himself and not Dora. That's truthful advice for all of us, I think.I thought the writing of Dora's miscarriage was beautiful "The spirit fluttered for..."
You’re spot on as usual, Bridget, and I agree that is a beautiful sentence.
It was an amazingly subtle description of a miscarriage. Would that have been necessary given the times Dickens was writing in? I wondered if some readers might have missed it entirely.
Mod
"a baby-smile upon her breast might change my child-wife to a woman. It was not to be. The spirit fluttered for a moment on the threshold of its little prison, and, unconscious of captivity, took wing."
(Edit - sorry to repeat this Bridget - I missed your post!)
"[when] my aunt had left her with a parting cry of ‘Good night, Little Blossom,’ I sat down at my desk alone, and tried to think, Oh what a fatal name it was, and how the blossom withered in its bloom upon the tree!"
Yes, the entire section is beautifully and sensitively done.
Those are beautiful quotes written about the miscarriage. And again David and Dora cannot make headway with a decent servant. I'm with Janelle who said they should have asked Peggotty for help or at least to ask her to train up someone who would do what they were supposed to rather than take advantage of them. But they continue to be duped by their helpers. And that David blames their lack of modeling good behavior to their servants as the reason for their thieving and such is ridiculous.
David says, I begin to be afraid that the fault is not entirely one side, but that these people all turn out ill because we don't turn out very well ourselves.
Sadly part of maturing is learning from mistakes and David has learned a very huge lesson in this marriage with Dora. Being so immature, David's dreams of what married life before the marriage was just a fantasy. Reality of the life looked nothing like what he dreamed of when he was young. Isn't this so true about life. We all dreamed of our future lives when we were young and when we actually got there, none (at least for me) of those dreams were made realistic.
I loved my wife dearly, and I was happy; but the happiness I had vaguely anticipated, once, was not the happiness I enjoyed, and there was always something wanting.
What I missed, I still regarded - I always regarded - as something that had been a dream of youthful fancy; that was incapable of realization; that I was now discovering to be so....
Lori wrote: "Those are beautiful quotes written about the miscarriage. And again David and Dora cannot make headway with a decent servant. I'm with Janelle who said they should have asked Peggotty for help or..."
I suppose David was looking for the happy family life he remembered from his early childhood. To an extent, he has found that but with someone who doesn’t complement him well. One of our buddies - I’m sorry that I can’t recall which - pointed out the similarities between Dora and Clara, David’s mother, which I found very insightful.
Fiona, I think you’re right, and of course she had Peggotty to manage her household.
Lori wrote: "And that David blames their lack of modeling good behavior to their servants as the reason for their thieving and such is ridiculous...."That is such a good point Lori. I didn't pick up on the ridiculousness of David's argument about being the cause of other people stealing when I read through it. Sometimes I forget that David is often an unreliable narrator and I should not be "on his side" all the time because he's often wrong.
Absolutely Bridget. Another example of the unreliable narrator is at the beginning of the chapter when he talks about his pride in his success but that he represents himself as modest. Hmmmm…
That whole section on modesty and pride didn’t really make much sense. It sounded like Dickens himself talking and I’m not sure why he left it in. Probably something going on at the time he was responding to, perhaps.
Mod
Yes! Occasionally his voice comes in; but there are other parts like this too. I like that they are included, as the whole was so cathartic for Charles Dickens to write his "autobiography" this way, as a piece of fiction.
I think I counted 4 viewpoints in this book: young David, older David (ostensibly the narrator, but sometimes unreliable, as Bridget and Lori said) omniscient and Charles Dickens himself. It's so clever - and so subtle :)
Chapter 49 Poor Micawber! Finally, his basic decency has got the better of him. Am I understanding this right? Is Heep going to marry Agnes? Or am I reading too much into this?I loved that Micawber is tossed in all directions by the elephants. Lovely! Also, he mentions Auld Lang Syne when he’s with David et al but reverts to his usual flowery language in writing, calling it the well known strain of the Immortal exciseman nurtured beyond the Tweed. He really is a case!
I had a hard time deciphering Mr. Micawber's letter too. It crossed my mind as well that Heep is getting ready to marry Agnes. Especially because the mention of Agnes is what gets Micawber to have his emotional response. But I also got the feeling Micawber has some scheme that he is luring Heep into. Though I wouldn't have thought Micawber capable of planning something like that. It made me feel better though that David and Traddles also had a hard time deciphering the letter :-) Mrs. Micawber's letter was much easier to figure out. It takes great talent to write in multiple voices like that, and make it all believable.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Janelle wrote: "It sounded like Dickens himself talking ..."Yes! Occasionally his voice comes in; but there are other parts like this too. I like that they are included, as the whole was so catha..."
I'm liking the different vantage points and voices of David as well. It's like we are hearing about things in real time, but also with David looking back. Dickens voice in there as well, and he handles it so smoothly.
I’m with you Fiona and Bridget in the difficulty of deciphering Micawber’s letter. Where’s the special code necessary! 🤦🏻♀️ I was thinking that I need to reread it and then David says he read it over and over so, yes made me feel better. I’ll go back and see what I make of the marriage. You’re probably right. But I thought there was a scheme as well. I also wanted to list out all of the names Micawber calls Heep in his rant. I just need to get to my iPad.
Strong words by Micawbee about Heep.Villainy
Baseless
Deception
Fraud
Conspiracy
Detestable serpent
Abandoned rascal
Interminable cheat and liar
Transcendent and immortal hypocrite and perjurer
Consummate scoundrel
Intolerable ruffian
Devoted and doomed traitor
Then he says no communication until - Miss Wickfirld - a - redress from wrongs inflicted by consummate scoundrel…
Mod
I wish Lori’s summary was the chapter! It was difficult to read, I found I just didn’t care whether I understood everything, Micawber is really an annoying man!
It does seem that Micawber has some sort of plan in mind for their assignation one week hence. I’m looking forward to reading whatever is coming up next. These several chapters have such feelings of action and urgency about them
Chapter 50 So the plan was to marry Emily to Littimer and then what? For Steerforth to keep her as a mistress while he married someone ‘respectable’? And how did Rosa Dartle find Emily so quickly? Who is her informant? She must be mentally ill, she is so deranged with bitterness, anger, envy and malice. I hope this is a happy ending for Emily but I couldn’t care less about Steerforth.
If we could get Rosa and Heep together what a pair they would make!?!?I definitely don’t know how she knew where to find Emily and what gives her the right to go and mock her and belittle her? I agree, Fiona, she must be mad. It’s sad to think she never in all the years with the Steerforth’s found a man to make her happy.
What an ending and build up throughout that chapter. Dan Peggotty running in for the rescue! I loved his words of praise for finding her.
Steerforth wasn’t going to keep her as his mistress. He’d become bored with Emily. But I guess to make himself feel better he wasn’t just going to dump her, he organised a marriage for her to Littimer.I don’t know why David didn’t intervene between Rosa and Emily. Rosa is a psycho.
I know Janelle, that’s very infuriating to me that David crouched in a corner out of the way. Ugh. What was he thinking. He’s a bit scared of her I suppose. Who wouldn’t be?I also wonder if Littimer may have known where Emily was and informed Dartle. She was downright threatening toward Emily.
Lori/ Janelle - I was mad with David for not intervening and just because he thought Dan should be the one to find Emily. He could have saved her from such a horrible rollicking.
I was mad at David too! Ugh! he can be so indecisive. He reminds me of Hamlet -- especially in this chapter. (The notes in my edition show many references to Hamlet sprinkled throughout this story, which is what got me thinking about this). I'm not super fluent in all things Shakespeare, but I know enough of Hamlet to say both David and Hamlet have this infuriating inability to act. Like when David doesn't warn Agnes about Heep's intentions. Or confront any of the myriad number of servants that have stolen from him. There was a point in the story after Mr. Spenlow died, and David couldn't decide what to do when Agnes said to him "Perhaps it would be better only to consider whether it is right to do this; and, if it is, to do it". That's definitely the advice Hamlet needed, and its also good for David. Its that advice that leads David to write to Dora's Aunts. Without it he would have languished in unrequited love agony for who knows how long.
As far as how Rosa Dartle found Emily, I thought this line indicated that Littimer was helping her
"Being assisted by a gentleman who not long ago aspired to the favor of your hand"
This whole confrontation between Rosa and Emily is so interesting. Rosa is the embodiment of the upper class disdain for working class people. Maybe disdain is too weak of a word, because it seems Rosa doesn't really think of the working class as people "You were part of the trade of your home, and were bought and sold like any other vendible thing your people dealt in"
Rosa is also such a prime example of how women are our own worst enemies. Instead of banding together against villainous men (Steerforth) we rail at each other instead. Both Rosa and Emily are Steerforth's victims, sadly Rosa will never see that.
**Sorry this is such a long post. I guess this chapter really got to me :-)
Bridget - the similarities between Hamlet and David are really interesting. Thanks for sharing. I wouldn’t have thought of it without your guidance but he is spineless, just like Hamlet. He is always trying to justify his actions or inactions to himself.Don’t apologise for the length of your posts. You always have something really interesting to say :)
Great thoughts Bridget. David’s indecisiveness especially in regards to Agnes is frustrating. You’d think he’d learn these lessons faster.
My thought about David’s lack of action, or perhaps, my possible interpretation. I thought that David was fearful of what effect his stepping in might have on Emily, that her uncle could Intercede and be accepted by Emily in a way that David couldn’t. David’s presence might be more shaming for Emily since he is not a family member.As for Rosa, I doubt she has ever wanted another life as she seems to have been fostering an unrequited love for Steerforth all these years and isn’t likely to give it up ever. I see that as why she sees Emily as the woman who “stole” Steerforth and won’t accept that Emily was lied to and proposed marriage falsely.
Sue wrote: "My thought about David’s lack of action, or perhaps, my possible interpretation. I thought that David was fearful of what effect his stepping in might have on Emily, that her uncle could Intercede ..."Very good points, Sue.
Chapter 51 So many touching scenes! I felt particularly for Ham. Despite his pain, he wishes only the best for Dora and doesn't want her to know how he really feels. Mrs Gummidge's pleading with Daniel brought a lump to my throat too. I'm so glad she's going with them. I worried about David sensing that Steerforth was close by and hope that's not an indication that he will make another appearance.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
David Copperfield (other topics)A Message from the Sea (other topics)
Bleak House (other topics)
Little Dorrit (other topics)
A Message from the Sea (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Charles Dickens (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
John Forster (other topics)
More...
