Dickensians! discussion
Buddy Reads
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Buddy read of David Copperfield May 2021 onwards with Cozy_Pug, Sue, Bridget, Fiona and Jenny
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"Dystonia is a neurological movement disorder in which sustained muscle contractions cause twisting and repetitive movements or abnormal postures ... Many sufferers have continuous pain, cramping, and relentless muscle spasms due to involuntary muscle movements. Other motor symptoms are possible including lip smacking."
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Yes, we keep finding these fairy tale references - well spotted picking up that one, Lori. And if you remember, Amy Dorrit's clothes were very symbolic too, at various times in the story :)
Bridget - "No wonder we don't know what to make of Annie" Exactly! You've picked up the parts that seem to contradict each other. There's a lot of misdirection here, and we don't yet know which way events will lead!
Bionic Jean wrote: "Lori wrote: "Dickens most definitely was attracted to the silly girl and had the smart level-headed ones as friends. Jean explained in the original thread about the two women in Dickens life that h..."Thank you, Jean, for all this information and links. It’s really interesting to learn about Dickens’ inspirations.
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In the question of Carker vs Heep, at this point I would give the edge to Heep. He is so incredibly vile and uses such insidious means to pull innocent others into his web of abuse. He uses others’ good and less noble characters against them and their friends. And the purpose is his own enrichment, his advancement in society and the hope to diminish or destroy others while advancing himself. And all while remaining this supposedly “humble” being.All in all, there seemed more signs of wearying of the childishness of Dora. But any time David attempts to move toward a subject even semi-serious, Dora complains or confesses incapacity. I wondered about her talk with him about her not being as smart as Agnes. Does she see feelings in Agnes that David has missed? Or is she simply just so aware of the large difference between them. Is she beginning to wonder if she is right for David or he for her?
After this chapter, I might give the edge to Heep as well. Just breaks my heart the way Heep destroyed Dr. Strong's happy illusions about his marriage, with no other motive than to make sure Annie didn't influence Agnes against the Heeps. Sometimes its much better to leave people alone with their ideals. We don't have any proof that Annie has been disloyal or unfaithful to Dr. Strong. In fact there is lots of evidence that she loves him and feels contented with him. I feel like Heep is cutting off all the exits and slowly trapping Agnes into tying her life with his. I hope I'm wrong.
Heep has this way of sucking all the joy and happiness out of the room. He's done it to Mr. Wickfield and Dr. Strong. I think somehow he's also doing it to Mr. Micawber. I'm not a fan of Micawber since he used Traddles so poorly, but I don't want him morose and severe.
Jean, thank you for providing the link here - in addition to the original thread. It really does add depth to the reading.The Dystonia condition sounds awful. Those poor people (including Uriah Heep) must suffer so much.
One more thought I had on this chapter....how about that part where Dora twists and turns the buttons on David's coat, with "downcast eyes", and her hair on his breast. That's about as close as Dickens could dare come to something racy between them. It kind of put into perspective for me what David sees in Dora. LOL
As far as Dora seeing things that David doesn't, I think that could be true - especially when it comes to Agnes. Its hard for me to tell if Agnes is really in love with David, or just feels sisterly towards him, because we only get David's view of the situation, and he is still naive. Even though I am weary of Dora being vacuous, there is evidence that she has more self awareness than David does.
Hi all, I just got to chapter 42. One chapter behind. Dora is annoying as *)*(. Do we think that people like that truly exist or was the character exaggerated intentionally? Yikes.
Angela wrote: "Hi all, I just got to chapter 42. One chapter behind. Dora is annoying as *)*(. Do we think that people like that truly exist or was the character exaggerated intentionally? Yikes."
I don't like Dora either. I think maybe she's both an exaggeration and a real person. I feel like in modern times, I've known girls who act silly and girlish as a sort of sexual ploy. But with Dora I'm not sure she's mature enough to think of her actions that way. She's genuinely childlike. Exaggerating her makes for a great contrast with Agnes. And her childlike qualities remind me of Clara Copperfield (David's mother) so perhaps on a psychological level David is replacing his beloved mother with a child wife.
I can't figure out why Aunt Betsey likes her. Maybe her regret over how she treated Clara Copperfield makes her treat Dora differently?
Bridget wrote: "After this chapter, I might give the edge to Heep as well. Just breaks my heart the way Heep destroyed Dr. Strong's happy illusions about his marriage, with no other motive than to make sure Annie ..."A lot of very good points here, Bridget. You’ve set me thinking about quite a few things.
Chapter 43 A very autobiographical interlude, I think. My only query is why Peggotty watched from above? She had to sign the register so must be a witness.
Fiona wrote: "Chapter 43 A very autobiographical interlude, I think. My only query is why Peggotty watched from above? She had to sign the register so must be a witness."That was my question too!
This chapter had a dream like quality for me. Probably because at the beginning the narrator says he's going to "stand aside, to see the phantoms of those days go by". I think its normal to be dreamy on your wedding day. I remember very few details about my own, other than being very happy. But thinking about David in this dreamlike state during his wedding made me think about something Dr. Strong said in the previous chapter "Once awakened from my dream -- I have been a poor dreamer, in one way or other, all my life". Its interesting that Dr. Strong is a harbinger for what David could possibly become if he's not careful.
I thought that Dora’s “child-wife” talk with David showed a level of self-awareness I hadn’t expected, and I don’t believe David had either. I begin to like her a bit better. And her wish to spend time with Agnes to learn skills. Not realistic but interesting.As for Aunt Betsey, I think her feelings are mixed. She essentially said to David that he’s made his bed and now must lie in it when he asked if she could give Dora tips. She pointed out that he knew who he was marrying. And he loves and did marry her. She lives on the grounds but will only remain the aunt and good friend.
Bridget wrote: "Angela wrote: "Hi all, I just got to chapter 42. One chapter behind. Dora is annoying as *)*(. Do we think that people like that truly exist or was the character exaggerated intentionally? Yikes...."
Great insights here about Dora, Bridget. I am beginning to believe that you are right about Dora's comparison to David's mother and that is the biggest attraction to him. It's pretty common that some men marry women like their mothers so that is not at all out of possibility.
Sue wrote: "I thought that Dora’s “child-wife” talk with David showed a level of self-awareness I hadn’t expected, and I don’t believe David had either. I begin to like her a bit better. And her wish to spend ..."Sue, I agree that Dora is definitely more self aware than she appears to be. She was afraid of Agnes until she met her and then the friendship came to life. Does Agnes really like Dora or is she accepting her because she is David's chosen? I think there may be some truth in both aspects.
Back in Chapter 42, Agnes says some thing to David that had me wondering if this was a bit of foreshadowing to a trouble that is to come.'Do not be troubled,' she said, giving me her hand, 'by our misfortunes and anxieties. I can be happier in nothing than in your happiness. If you can ever give me help, rely upon it I will as you for it. God bless you always!'
I fear what all is happening in Canterbury. It can’t be good and I wonder if David will think about on his own or suddenly be summoned there. I worry at this point that Agnes would no longer have a home should her father die, unless she accepts Uriah.
Chapter 44 I’m afraid I just feel nauseous after reading this chapter. Yes, there is humour and I appreciate the wry way that Dickens looks back on this period but OMG! Dora is simply unbearable! Or perhaps just simple! Please can we move on with the story?
Lori wrote: "Back in Chapter 42, Agnes says some thing to David that had me wondering if this was a bit of foreshadowing to a trouble that is to come.'Do not be troubled,' she said, giving me her hand, 'by ou..."
Lori, thanks for bringing that quote from Agnes back up. That's one to keep in mind as we move forward. Definitely can hear the foreshadowing now as I read it again.
I agree 100%, Fiona! Ugh. This last quote just sums it up:
...Dora was pleased and that pleased me. She was quite satisfied that a good deal was effected by this make-belief of housekeeping; and was as merry as if we had been keeping a baby-house, for a joke.
David needs to do as Aunt Betsey says and work it out with Dora not permit Dora's silliness.
Betsey does show some sadness and regret for the way she treated David's mother so this may be why she is so accepting of Dora. What a nickname for Dora - Little Blossom.
As Bridget quoted, David has awakened from the wedding dream and at the beginning of this chapter he says the honeymoon is over. Now to reality of married life but I don't think either of them really had any great idea as to what it would be like. Neither of them had a mother and a father to be an example to them in how a marriage should be. So right from the start, they have a lot to learn on their own. David's asking Betsey to intervene is difficult and I'm glad that she politely turned him down reminding him of how when the Murdstone's interfered it didn't turn out great.Marriage is always work for the couple and these two are going to need to try extra hard. David the narrator is remembering this time and it seems to have a tone of sadness to it. Does anyone else pick up on it?
I was struck by this
I did feel, sometimes, for a while, that I could have wished my wife had been my counsellor; had had more character and purpose, to sustain me and improve me by; had been endowed with power to fill up the void which somewhere seemed to be about me; but I felt as if this were an unearthly consummation of my happiness, that never had been meant to be, and never could have been.
As far as Dora's self-awareness, the fact that she wished she had gone to live with Agnes to learn from to be improved was quite telling.
Fiona, your comment "can we move on with the story" made me laugh. Well said!Lori, I was struck by that quote too. It sounds like a description of Agnes to me. But alas the heart wants what it wants. I also marked a few lines before that as Dickens foreshadowing bad things to come "I had a great deal of work to do, and had many anxieties, but the same considerations made me keep them to myself. I am far from sure, now, that it was right to do this"
You are so right that marriage is hard, and kudos to Aunt Betsey for staying out of it.
Oh that's a great quote, Bridget. I sure hope it doesn't have to do with anxieties about Agnes and Heap and not speaking out for her.I'm with you, Fiona, I want to know what is happening with all of the others.
I’m surprised that David didn’t ask Peggotty to help out with the household at least to start with. All the servants taking advantage of them was comical though. I agree with you, Lori that David’s narration is sad, so foreshadowing for sure.
Lori & Bridget - both excellent quotes. They had resonated with me too and made me worry for what’s to come. Dora is the love of his life but she doesn’t fulfil all his needs.
Chapter 45 For me, the Strongs’ reconciliation is the least important occurrence in this chapter, touching though it is. More interesting is the slow blossoming of David’s realisation that falling in love with someone isn’t enough to underpin a lifelong marriage. No need to quote here as the chapter ends with a repetition of the most important phrases. I’m doubtful that anything will come of it, however.The scene in Dr Strong’s study is a perfect mix of humour and pathos. The exchanges between Aunt Betsey and the Old Soldier are priceless! Mr Dick is a gem to be sure.
Finally, what a wonderful paragraph this is:- One fair evening, when Dora was not inclined to go out, my aunt and I strolled up to the Doctor’s cottage. It was autumn…….and I remember how the leaves smelt like our garden at Blunderstone as we trod them underfoot, and how the old, unhappy feeling, seemed to go by, on the sighing wind. David’s childhood is an ever present motif, it seems.
Fiona, you have perfectly summed up this chapter. I agree that David's realization regarding marriage is poignant. I like how Dickens uses other characters to bring this point home for David. I actually can't wait to watch this to see Maggie Smith in all her Aunt Betsey glory!
And I do love how Mr Dick came to realize his perfect function in this sad situation. And such success.But the overriding thought is with David and his growing realization of how he rushed into marriage based on infatuation.
It is interesting to see David changing and maturing. Realizing the mistakes he made along the way. Realizing love and marriage are two different things. It was great how he finally told Annie the truth about what was said that fateful night in the study. Just that act of confronting a difficult situation is new for David. Think of all the times he avoids conflict (Mrs. Crupp comes to mind - and all the other more recent servants). David often acts cowardly, but here he was pushed (by Annie) into revealing a secret, and he found some courage. And it turned out okay once he did that.
Fiona wrote: "Lori & Bridget - both excellent quotes. They had resonated with me too and made me worry for what’s to come. Dora is the love of his life but she doesn’t fulfil all his needs."<I'm not so sure Dora is the love of his life. Chief infatuation, maybe? I'm not sure that book is closed yet.
Angela wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Lori & Bridget - both excellent quotes. They had resonated with me too and made me worry for what’s to come. Dora is the love of his life but she doesn’t fulfil all his needs."<I'm ..."
Good point, Angela.
Chapter 46 So Emily has left Steerforth. Is this worse for her or better? I don’t suppose we’ll know until she’s found. We all suspected Martha would have a future role and here it is.The most haunting phrase in this chapter is when David is walking away from Rosa Dartle and Mrs Steerforth, he writes: before I looked upon those two again, a stormy sea had risen to their feet. Now what can that mean, I wonder?
Fiona, I was struck by that too and wondered if perhaps Steerforth had returned home in spite of being unwanted or perhaps had been found and beaten or killed by family of a woman he destroyed.
We don’t think Ham would want retribution, do we? It seems to go against his nature.
I was thinking more globally as I can’t imagine that Emily and Rose are the only women Steerforth has wronged or injured. Ham, as we knew him, doesn’t seem like one who would go after him but time and loss and emotion may have changed Ham that much.
Good point, Sue. I had not let my mind go in that direction, but Steerforth is certainly the right personality to know many women all over. Rosa Dartle was awful yet again. I think she is getting worse in her vehemence against Emily. Talk about a Victorian cat fight! I don’t think Rosa would lose.
Learning what Martha has to say will be interesting.
Rose is so bitter. Amazing that she holds Emily at fault for Steerforth’s “sins” where the Emily we know and Rose never has wouldn’t have seduced Steerforth. Rose is blind to the extent of his “evil,” in spite of being a victim of it.
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David and Dora's wedding - Frank Reynolds (1910)
It is an "incoherent dream ... a fairy wedding".
Thought you'd like this one here too :)
Aunt Betsey has mellowed, and yes, probably regrets how she was dismissive of Clara (David's mother), so is kind to "Little Blossom".
Today's chapter is the one which started the final thread for the group read, if you'd like to peek at illustrations etc. I think the previous thread had posts on "Urania Cottage": the home for young street girls which Charles Dickens started up with his friend Angela Burdett-Coutts; the character of Martha was based on a real life inmate. Also information and an example of the shorthand system he invented.
Rose is quite bitter, I agree and seems to have let her emotions dictate her attitude towards David and the situation. David and Mr. Peggotty's quest to find Martha looks like it might be the key to finding Emily. Fabulous illustration Bionic Jean!
I absolutely love this picture, Jean. It’s so beautiful and exactly what I would have envisioned.
Sue wrote: "I was thinking more globally as I can’t imagine that Emily and Rose are the only women Steerforth has wronged or injured. Ham, as we knew him, doesn’t seem like one who would go after him but time ..."Lori/Sue - Daniel Peggotty seemed to be suggesting that he worries about what action Ham would take if he came across Steerforth, or am I misinterpreting what he says?
I like that picture too. Its just how I pictured Dora looking, and how I pictured Jip as well.In my book it says Chapter 46 is the last of Installment 15. Imagine the frustration of having to wait a month to find out what Martha is going to say!
Rosa Dartle is so dark and angry. Like when she said "I believe some common things are hard to die". Wow! I think if I was watching this story as a play I would have "booed" her right then!
I was impressed that David stood up for Emily to Mrs. Steerforth. That's different behavior for David. Also, glad he went straight to Mr. Peggotty, and was the one to suggest finding Martha. I think all this shows more of that growing maturity in David.
Fiona wrote: "Sue wrote: "I was thinking more globally as I can’t imagine that Emily and Rose are the only women Steerforth has wronged or injured. Ham, as we knew him, doesn’t seem like one who would go after h..."I think Dan isn't sure what Ham would do at this point. I think he definitely wants Ham to steer clear (ha! I didn't mean that!) of Steerforth just in case. I think for Ham to harm Steerforth would be out of character though. But he certainly may have thought about it. He's had plenty of time to think a lot and to maybe move on.
Lori wrote: "We don’t think Ham would want retribution, do we? It seems to go against his nature."Oh, good question Lori! I think it would go against his nature.
Sue wrote: "Rose is so bitter. Amazing that she holds Emily at fault for Steerforth’s “sins” where the Emily we know and Rose never has wouldn’t have seduced Steerforth. Rose is blind to the extent of his “evi..."yes, I think you are so right about this Sue. Rosa is a victim as well. I feel sorry for her.
Lori wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Sue wrote: "I was thinking more globally as I can’t imagine that Emily and Rose are the only women Steerforth has wronged or injured. Ham, as we knew him, doesn’t seem like one who wo..."That’s it, Lori. Dan says I doen’t know as he’d do violence under any circumstances, but I hope as them two may be kep asunders. He doesn’t want Steerforth to provoke Ham.
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I think I have caught this in the first half hour, but please delete it.
Dickensians!
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David Copperfield (other topics)A Message from the Sea (other topics)
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Just as Charles Dickens used his mother for several characters throughout his work, we can never say that a character is not an amalgam of more than one person in his life.
"Dora" is usually held to be a portrait of Maria Beadnell, his earliest sweetheart, but when he married Catherine (Kate) he had chosen someone with exactly the same characteristics - which his fictional Dora displays to perfection.
The fact that we find her such an irritating noodle is partly because Charles Dickens is writing her that way, with an eye to how ridiculous the young David was being - as he himself had been. His portrait of the older Maria Beadnell as Flora Finching in Dombey and Son is markedly different! When he is describing Dora, we can sense a sort of rueful older narrator: Charles Dickens is almost laughing at his younger self. It's a good job it is so funny, as we have a low tolerance for melodrama nowadays!
Here is the main post about Maria Beadnell, as inspiration for Flora Finching in Dombey and Son, but also, when she was a young woman for Dora Spenlow:
DITZY DORA. (The first half is about her incarnation as Flora Finching in Dombey and Son, and then about Dora in David Copperfield).
Lori - to link to a specific post in a thread, you just need to make sure the post is in the address bar. So click on the time, at the top right of the post, to bring it to the top of the page, and then link as usual.