Dickensians! discussion
Buddy Reads
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Buddy read of David Copperfield May 2021 onwards with Cozy_Pug, Sue, Bridget, Fiona and Jenny
I'm also good with no days off as well. Best wishes to Cozy Pug as well.
You guys! I'm off by a chapter again so have to read 31 but glancing at the comments, y'all are scaring me!
WOW. Just wow. What a despicable loser.
Mod
Thanks everyone and it looks as if most would be happy with continuing one chapter a day without pauses, although several have also said they don't mind either way. Angela, I fear you are a sole voice in actively wanting breaks. Shall we say that today and tomorrow are for chapter 32, and from then on it's strictly one chapter a day? I can feel several with an urge to make progress :) And this way it's less complicated, as nobody has to remember to look when each installment ended.
Does this suit better? Of course everybody makes their own "catch-up" days if needed, or vice versa. And Fiona often starts it off, because geographically your day starts first (I think!) Angela, I'm hoping this doesn't put you out too much. Maybe when one of your five books finishes, the pressure will be off? I do remember you managed to zoom through Dombey and Son, and caught us all up magnificently, so that in the end we all finished together :)
Any thoughts?
No problem! Not put out at all. I need to be a chapter ahead because I think I am bringing up the rear geographically. I'll be to 33 by tomorrow night and then be set to discuss it Monday? Then a chapter a night would keep me on track. Thinking out loud and making you all listen, thanks for your patience with that!
Mod
Sounds great to me! I'm really enjoying this so far and want to know whats going to happen lol
Fine with me too, Jean. This is a brand new experience for me and I’m loving it!
Fine with me too. I read 32 last night to be ready and a lot happened again.
Chapter 32 David’s words, that Steerforth has polluted an honest home, encapsulate the situation for me. These are good people that he has wronged, not least Emily. Poor Ham! He can’t imagine being with anyone else except Emily and so contemplates living the rest of his life on his own. Mrs Gummidge chasing the coach as it leaves is heart wrenching. Peggotty’s interview with Mrs Steerforth goes as we would expect. She and Rosa lay all the blame at Emily’s feet. Rosa would have Emily branded on the face, drest in rags, and cast out in the streets to starve. Nice! I struggle to figure out how she really feels about Steerforth. Is she in love with him? Even though he threw a hammer at her and maimed her? What kind of people are these? The contrast with the Peggotty family is stark. Emily will be forgiven by them whatever happens.
How will Peggotty travel around Europe when he, I’m assuming, has no experience of anywhere except Yarmouth and possibly other fishing ports? What are his chances of finding Emily? If he does find her, will she leave Steerforth to return to Yarmouth with him?
The interview with Mrs Steerforth was horrifying but reminded me of past discussions of “blood.” All that matters to someone like her is maintaining a semblance of propriety with the right sort of people not someone so obviously beneath her misguided son. Her son has done wrong but is still a superior being to Emily because of who he was born.I was surprised at the vicious response from Rosa. She must be in love with Steerforth in spite of how he has treated her.
Totally agree, Sue. It’s the blood thing again.I think Rosa is another victim of Steerforth and she’s just totally twisted because of his rejection and behaviour but for some reason she still loves him.
Is it blood or is it class? The Steerforths aren’t landed gentry or titled but they are definitely upper class. Emily would come under the category of respectable working class in those days. It would have been unthinkable for someone of Steerforth’s class to marry her, or even be associated with her other than, possibly, as a mistress. It’s perhaps being pedantic - I’m known for it:) - but I don’t think blood is the same as class, certainly not in 19th century England.
I didn't expect to see Miss Mowcher back and boy that woman is wordy! She really likes to talk doesn't she? It's funny that she does hair and that's what I do with my hairdresser when I go, is talk!Anyway, we see a new side to her as far as her wanting to clarify how she behaved in front of Steerforth when David first met her. She's a bit two-faced because she behaves to get what she wants from others. But here she was giving David more info and interestingly brought up whether David remembered Steerforth's words previously (from Ch 22).
Steerforth says She is the prettiest and most engaging little fairy in the world. I admire her - as my friend does - exceedingly. If it were not that I might appear to disparage her Intended, which I know my friend would not like, I would add, that to me she seems to be throwing herself away; that I am sure she might do better; and that I swear she was born to be a lady.
Reading it again, knowing what we know now, really puts a chill down my spine!
I loved that Mr. Peggotty confronted Mrs. Steerforth knowing it was pointless. It really showed the distinction in the two families as Fiona mentioned. Similarly in Dombey and Son, we say the drastic differences in the loveless Dombey family and the loving and happy Toodles family.I think Rosa Dartle's reaction came across as more harsh than Mrs. Steerforth's almost. She acts like a woman scorned - so she wants the greatest harm to come against the woman who takes her man. Well, since we don't know if Steerforth had lead her on in the past, it certainly appears that there is a reason for her behavior.
Last one before I head out to church - this chapter was like the turning point with so much to talk about.
When this chapter began, I thought David - why are you having positive thoughts about Steerforth? But when you think about losing someone so dear to you it's almost like that person dying. The friendship is over and dead and nothing can change it. It's almost as if he was having a remembrance or eulogy for Steerforth in the first few paragraphs and wanting to think of those things. This was such a sad line:
What his remembrances of me were, I have never known - they were light enough, perhaps, and easily dismissed - but mine of him were as the remembrances of a cherished friend, who was dead.
Lori wrote: "I didn't expect to see Miss Mowcher back and boy that woman is wordy! She really likes to talk doesn't she? It's funny that she does hair and that's what I do with my hairdresser when I go, is talk..."I’m wondering what Miss Mowcher’s real agenda is. She couldn’t have stopped what happened even if she’d arrived earlier so why is she really there, do you think?
Mod
Yes, Steerforth and Emily are way apart in terms of class, but as Fiona was saying, Steerforth is not an aristocrat. He is from a good family yes; his father was a gentleman, whereas Emily's family are poor. She has no father, and is not educated. Her guardian has no profession and no property. Polite society, including the Steerforths, would view them as beneath their notice. If their attention was drawn to them as moving outside their sphere, for instance Emily's wish to "be a lady" they would be regarded as risible and beneath contempt.
Thanks everyone, for making the transition to a chapter a day so smooth. Hopefully this will feel smoother - and perhaps a bit less frustrating?
Thanks Jean for reminding us of the real life version of Mrs. Mowcher. I'm glad Dickens changed her into a more sympathetic character. I especially liked the line "Take a word of advice, even from three foot nothing. Try not to associate bodily defects with mental"Thanks also for reminding us of the class rules, how unbending they are and what they mean for Emily. Sue, the discussion of "blood" and Mrs. Steerforth's regard of Emily are connected in my mind too as they are both examples of one group of people placing themselves above another group of people. The more I read of Dickens, the more I believe he really detested that in all its forms.
Janelle, I loved your use of the word "twisted", that sums up perfectly what living with the Steerforth's has done to Rosa Dartle.
Lori, beautiful way to look at David's opening comments about Steerforth being a eulogy. I quite like that! I also agree with you and Fiona, about your comparisons of the Peggotty and Steerforth families. Oh, and bringing up the Dombeys and Toodles is spot on as well.
The most gripping part of this chapter, for me, was when Mr. Peggotty promised he and his family would stay away from Emily forever if only Mrs. Steerforth would allow them to marry. My heart just ached for him in that moment.
Jean, thanks for the reminder that Dickens planned to “reform” the image of Miss Mowcher.(sp) I think he did a good job of it, particularly as this type of physical anomaly is still so misunderstood today.
Sue wrote: "Jean, thanks for the reminder that Dickens planned to “reform” the image of Miss Mowcher.(sp) I think he did a good job of it, particularly as this type of physical anomaly is still so misunderstoo..."Thanks from me too, Jean. I had thought it odd but understand now.
Bridget I thought that question from Mr. Peggotty showed exactly how much he loves her. We know he will forgive her and take her back home no matter what. What grace and mercy for his prodigal that all of her waywardness will be forgotten …. If only she comes home.
Chapter 33 Oh David! The chapter opens with honesty as he refers to Dora as an idea, an image. He was steeped in Dora but he was in love with being in love with her, not with the person herself whom he barely knew. I love when he refers to the older men in court as Frozen-out old gardeners in the flowerbeds of the heart. The young never think older people understand about falling in love.On the day of the picnic, he was beside himself! The sun shone Dora, and the birds sang Dora. The south wind blew Dora, and the wild flowers in the hedge were all Doras, to a bud.. Happily, Dora returns his affections and he went to bed as enraptured a young noodle as ever was carried out of his five wits by love. Bless! But alarm bells are ringing. Why does Dora want to keep their engagement from her father?
With the exception of the episode regarding the court, this whole chapter made me smile. Miss Mills, not quite twenty but behaving as if she’s 79, is hilarious.
Fiona, oh my goodness you are so right about young people thinking older folks just don't understand love -- or anything else really!!This whole chapter reminds me of the exuberance of youth. David is probably right with his ideas about the Courts needing to be reformed, but he is also doing what young people do. I did the same thing with my first job. (oh how my boss probably "rolled her eyes" at my rantings). Pointing out how things could be done so much better, wanting it to change quickly. Lacking the wisdom that comes with age.
The last line of the chapter resonated so much with me "of all the times of mine that Time has in his grip" ah, yes, that's exactly how I feel when thinking of my favorite past memories.
Lovely recap Fiona! I loved the quotes you chose so much. It was a chapter that we can all, I think, understand and connect with. What is the saying, Love is blind. David’s emotions have gone to his head and he can only see the positive - almost like a fairy tale. In his mind Dora is perfect and has no flaws. Bridget, you gave a great explanation of the court section which helps as that section had me zoning out a bit.
Great recap, Fiona. I like how David first confides in his aunt about his love of Dora before he goes ahead with his plan. He seems head over heels in love right now, and it seems like everything is happening so quick in this chapter.
Bridget, I like how Dickens has these moments where he can zoom in on his reflections from another time, or the present, after spending so much of a chapter reflecting key moments of the past. He always has such smooth transitions to end the chapter that get the reader intrigued for more in the next chapter . The ending quote of chapter 33 is an excellent example of such.
I liked how Dora reversed things and chided David for his attention to the young woman that he sat with because Dora was surrounded by admirers. She can play with his emotions, can’t she. And I wonder where did his daughter get the forget me not ring that still brings David some feeling of pain? Is it the same ring?I must admit, when Mr Murdstone appeared in the act of obtaining a marriage license, for a moment I feared he might be marrying Dora. At least that didn’t happen!
Who is the Murdstone marrying? You gotta know Dickens wouldn't add that in there if it didn't mean something.....
What if it’s Martha? I doubt it but you never know! The girl is just if she, correct? So very young - 18?
Murdstone is marrying money, was my understanding, so couldn’t be Martha
Gosh, I should have read my comment, it should say that the girl Murdstone is marrying is of age.Yes, I’m sure he’s marrying money and it couldn’t be Martha, but she just popped in my mind.
Angela, I agree. Why would Dickens include this unless it was going to have meaning in the future.
Sue wrote: "I liked how Dora reversed things and chided David for his attention to the young woman that he sat with because Dora was surrounded by admirers. She can play with his emotions, can’t she. And I won..."That’s what I thought too, Sue, and then I thought it might be Julia Mills. Happily for both, it’s neither!
Chapter 34 What a master of comedy Dickens is! Aunt Betsey is a wonderful character. I love her disparagement of the name Peggotty. On hearing that Peggotty is now Barkis, she says Well! That’s human. It sounds less as if you wanted a Missionary.” Such a wonderful line!No doubt we’ll learn in the next chapter why Aunt Betsey has been ruined. Something to do with the mysterious man who follows her?
I also wondered about Uriah Heep. Did Aunt Betsey have money involved with that firm? I really can’t remember?
Sue wrote: "I also wondered about Uriah Heep. Did Aunt Betsey have money involved with that firm? I really can’t remember?"I don’t remember that she did but now you mention it, Sue, I don’t know what her connection to the Wickfields is.
It certainly is a mystery! It could be either of those things. I hope somehow Aunt Betsy isnt completely ruined. What will this do to David's plans with Dora?Angela, I loved Peggotty's reaction to Mr. Murdstone's engagement "Lord Deliver her!!"
Fiona, I loved your quote from Aunt Betsey too! So funny.
Yay! Aunt Betsey is back! I was certainly concerned when so many chests and belongings were described all about David's apartment which can't be all that big. Mrs. Crupp is certainly a pill isn't she? Aunt Betsey didn't like her tea for some reason! Well, I wonder what has happened? The next chapter is quite long so we will most likely find out, but Uriah Heep is a possibility. I also thought immediately about the strange man who could be her ex-husband.
And Traddles is back and I love how he asked David for Peggotty's help in getting his items back that had to be taken. What a life his fiancee lives as mother to her siblings and to her own mother. Sounds like a difficult situation for Traddles to inherit through marriage, if he is able to after all.
So many questions we have right now and hopefully we'll start to get some answers!!!
Peggotty is such a gem and I loved the image of Traddles walking home with the flower pot. He is such a caring young man. It does look like he is still enmeshed in McCawber’s schemes. I hope he’s not in too deep.
Well put, Fiona. Learning as we go in this journey is awfully fun.
Mod
Mr. Murdstone is marrying a wealthy young woman of 18, which raises suspicions in both Aunt Betsey's (and our!) minds.
Thanks for the clarification, Jean. I do remember all of that with Mr. Wickfield early on. As for Murdstone remarrying- he has waited for quite a while since Clara. Was he looking for the right young girl to come along? He would be much older than an 18 year old. I imagined him to be at least 10 years older than Clara.
Mod
Here is the text:
"‘I understand there’s money. Beauty too, I am told.’
‘Indeed! Is his new wife young?’
‘Just of age,’ said Mr. Spenlow. ‘So lately, that I should think they had been waiting for that.’
‘Lord deliver her!’ said Peggotty. So very emphatically and unexpectedly, that we were all three discomposed;"
So yes ... but the implication is clear. Had they been waiting together, as a lovematch? Or was Mr. Murdstone waiting beforehand? And she is wealthy (as you and Janelle both picked up). We need to question the motives here. As David said earlier in the chapter "his glance was as little to be trusted as of old."
What qualifications would your "right young girl" have, Lori. Rich, beautiful, impressionable, weak, ill ...? Perhaps this is in your mind too :)
I think it was Fiona and Sue who were wondering about the connection to Mr. Wickfield, so I clarified it for all. Even though this is a more straightforward story than some of his middle novels, there's still a lot going on :)
Mr. Murdstone’s “right young girl” would fall into the category of one he could control, so weak and impressionable. Another Clara and the wealth for him would be necessary. We don’t know how well his wine business has been getting along but that may not be an important factor any longer.
Mod
Chapter 35 I found this quite a wearisome chapter but it might just be me. I’m weary after a hot day’s walking on the Norfolk coast, north of the Peggottys’ Yarmouth. We learn that Aunt Betsey made some poor investments and that is how she lost her money. David immediately worries that his reduced status will mean he can’t marry Dora. He asks but is told he cannot have his apprenticeship money returned. What does that tell us about Spenlow and Jorkins, I wonder? Mr Wickfield is a poor soul now, thoroughly manipulated and controlled by that creep, Uriah Heep. Aunt Betsey has his measure! If you’re an eel, sir, conduct yourself like one. If you’re a man, control your limbs, sir! Good God! I am not going to be serpentined and corkscrewed out of my senses!. Isn’t ‘serpentined’ the perfect word for such a snake?!
I’m worried now for Agnes too. Oh, Agnes, sister of my boyhood, if I had known then, what I knew long afterwards!
Sounds like a lovely time, Fiona!That was the best line of all from Aunt Betsey to Uriah Heep! He has pushed so far into this family now as a partner with Mr. Wickfield and living with he and Agnes now. Definitely worried for Agnes and your quote is quite foreboding. I so wish David would wise up and see that he loves Agnes not Dora. Agnes is his angel of light and the one he trusts most. She is such a wonderful girl and Dora is just as Aunt Betsey is afraid of her being : silly and light-headed. Love with Agnes could be real but with Dora it's only going to be like a mist.
Mr. Wickfield is so sad to see now and so subservient it appears to Uriah. Aunt Betsey was worried about losing her money by allowing him to invest for her, but now she's lost it on her own. I was not expecting this at all.
Jorkins actually exists but doesn't really have any real say in the decisions.
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Books mentioned in this topic
David Copperfield (other topics)A Message from the Sea (other topics)
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Little Dorrit (other topics)
A Message from the Sea (other topics)
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And also missing Cozy Pug