Dickensians! discussion
Buddy Reads
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Buddy read of David Copperfield May 2021 onwards with Cozy_Pug, Sue, Bridget, Fiona and Jenny
Mod
No - see the previous comment. What does "Steerforth gets a pass on the Agnes meeting" mean, please?
'gets a pass' is American slang, sorry, for "not holding responsible".
Bionic Jean wrote: "Bridget wrote: "I wonder though how would Steerforth know who Agnes is? ..."What makes you think he does? Look at this part:
"I stepped at once out of the box-door into my bedroom, where only St..."
Right, I do understand that bit, but its all after David was brought to the box. I guess my point was how would Steerforth have known beforehand what Agnes looked like and then guided David into her box? After that though, yes David is back at home and explaining who Agnes is. I think David ending up in Agnes' box is just a coincidence. Seems like Dickens is found of coincidences in his novels. For instance its a coincidence that David runs into Steerforth when he first comes back to London.
Mod
Bridget - You say "my point was how would Steerforth have known beforehand what Agnes looked like and then guided David into her box?", but the text does not say that he did this!
Here is the text for the earlier part:
"On somebody’s motion,
this could be David, as he keeps referring to himself as "somebody" or it could be anyone - he can't remember
we resolved to go downstairs to the dress-boxes, where the ladies were. A gentleman lounging, full dressed, on a sofa, with an opera-glass in his hand, passed before my view, and also my own figure at full length in a glass. Then I was being ushered into one of these boxes,
this could have been by any one - Steerforth, or one of his friends, or a theatre usher - it is not specified. David just needs help getting into the box because he is so drunk!
and found myself saying something as I sat down, and people about me crying ‘Silence!’ to somebody, and ladies casting indignant glances at me, and—what! yes!—Agnes, sitting on the seat before me, in the same box, with a lady and gentleman beside her, whom I didn’t know."
As I said before, this is the first time Steerforth has seen Agnes from what we have been told, and this is why David tried later, in his drunken state, to explain who she was. The next chapter moves the relationships on a little.
"I think David ending up in Agnes' box is just a coincidence." YES! Exactly. Life is full of coincidences, and these are cultured gentlefolk moving in similar social circles. They would all want to see the latest plays. Then David finds he happens to know one of the people in the row in front of him.
My summary for this chapter LINK HERE includes a picture of the Adelphi theatre, and the posts after may be helpful.
Bridget, totally agree with you# about Steerforths flaw! I also wonder if he did not let David get deunk because he thought it was funny on some level?? Poor David if Aunt Betsey ahould find out though!
Mod
Yes, that seems very likely. Steerforth is totally self-centred and has been indulged by his mother since his childhood. Did you notice that he stayed at the school for extra years, because he could not be bothered to work for his exams? But instead of telling him to get down to studying, (as his father probably would have) his mother just dotes on him, and encourages his vanity. We've had ample evidence of this.
"The flaw in Steerforth is that he cares about David, but cares more about himself and having a good time."
Well put Bridget! Steerforth is self-aware, and keeps saying he knows he should be a better person, but he show no intention of doing anything about it. He just gets a little melancholic now and then.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Ah! Thanks Angela :)Bridget - You say "my point was how would Steerforth have known beforehand what Agnes looked like and then guided David into her box?", but the text does not say that he did t..."
Jean, I'm afraid I'm not very good at explaining myself, because I actually agree with everything you just wrote! Sorry about being confusing. Thanks for stating it very clearly.
Mod
I do agree that Steerforth likely allowed David to overindulge. I’m sure it appeared funny to him as David lost control and also would reinforce Steerforth’s own superiority. There is no apparent kindness in him. He shows sadness, melancholy, glee, happiness, but no kindness. Is he really giving a boat as a gift? Well, he has maligned the boat captain and family as simple, all but Emily. David has had to discount some of the things he has heard Steerforth say as not being serious. The awakening is probably coming soon. I just hope David isn’t badly injured by it.
Chapter 25 Agnes does her best to make David see through Steerforth but fails. How and what has she heard of him? It can’t be from her one encounter at the theatre but maybe the people she was with knew of him. If David won’t listen to Agnes, his Angel, he won’t listen to anyone.It was lovely for David to meet Tommy Traddles again. The scene at the dinner table between Spiker and Gulpidge is a perfect parody instantly recognisable to anyone who has worked in a large organisation. The feeling of power people have who understand all the veiled references and acronyms is intimidating to those who don’t. I’ve just retired from NHS management so trust me! I know!
What a creep Uriah Heep is and how revolting to think of him with Agnes. I think we were all with David when I believe I had a delirious idea of seizing the red-hot poker out of the fire, and running him through with it. He decides to keep Agnes in the dark about Uriah’s feelings but I’m sure she will be perfectly aware. When he leaves David’s rooms, it appeared to me as if the night was going away in his person. I wonder if this is where Ann Widdecombe got her idea for her description of Michael Howard? I wouldn’t be surprised.
OMG....young people in love. And the Murdstone is back! Can't say I missed her. What will come of that, I wonder?
Uriah Heep is so revolting. Why did he decide to only confide in David about his feelings for Agnes "Not to any one but you. You see I am only just emerging from my lowly station"?? What is he up to? I think David is wrong when he decides not to warn her.
And what was the deal with the conversation about Blood at dinner? Is it Dickens showing us how elitist and classist Victorians could be? I did laugh when I got to this line: "We might have been a party of Ogres, the conversation assumed such a sanguine complexion"
what a great pun!!
Angela wrote: "OMG....young people in love. And the Murdstone is back! Can't say I missed her. What will come of that, I wonder?"What chapter are you on, Angela? Wondering if I’ve missed something. Different editions etc.
Bridget wrote: "And what was the deal with the conversation about Blood at dinner? Is it Dickens showing us how elitist and classist Victorians could be? I did laugh when I got to this line: "We might have been a..."
One I missed, Bridget. Thanks!
Bridget wrote: "Uriah Heep is so revolting. Why did he decide to only confide in David about his feelings for Agnes "Not to any one but you. You see I am only just emerging from my lowly station"?? What is he up t..."I agree, Bridget.
Fiona, I’m glad you mentioned it cos I didn’t notice any mention of Murdstone either.David continues unrealistic regarding Steerforth. I’m a little surprised that Agnes’ words didn’t carry more weight with him. I’m also surprised he doesn’t intend to let her know Uriah’s intentions. I would be afraid that Heep might eventually be able to force a marriage due to his hold over her father.
Fiona and Bridget, I have to agree with all you've said on Chapter 25. I dislike how David has overridden Agnes' warnings about Steerforth. David even believes she is superior to him in character, so that itself should be his reason for thinking twice about the friendship. Here is what she says about what she judges Steerforth by-
From many things - trifles in themselves, but they do no seem to me to be so, when they are put together. I judge him, partly from your account of him, Trotwood, and your character, and the influence he has over you.
There is some hope though in the following lines
I feel as if it were someone else speaking to you, and not I, when I caution you that you have made a dangerous friend.
Again I looked at her, again I listened to her after she was silent, and again his image, though it was still fixed in my heart, darkened.
I did not see Uriah having designs for Agnes at all. That was a surprise. I wonder if there was any clue in the previous chapters and I've missed it? Uriah is most likely aware that David has feelings for her and what better way to stake his own claim than to "confide in" him his secret desire. Oh, what a low down scheme this is. Yes, David is wrong not to warn her. She just warned him about Steerforth and he should return the courtesy.
I am not sure what the discussion about Blood was all about. I'll go read the other thread to see if anyone had thoughts on that.
Tommy Traddles being back is promising. I always wanted David to befriend him in school. I hope he doesn't let people trample on him still. This will be interesting to see if Steerforth comes into play here.
Bridget wrote: "And what was the deal with the conversation about Blood at dinner? Is it Dickens showing us how elitist and classist Victorians could be? I did laugh when I got to this line: "We might have been a..."
Yes, that was great!!
Fiona wrote: "Angela wrote: "OMG....young people in love. And the Murdstone is back! Can't say I missed her. What will come of that, I wonder?"What chapter are you on, Angela? Wondering if I’ve missed somethin..."
Oh no.....I've just read 26. Am I off? Sorry for spoilers if so.
Blood is all about aristocracy. They were complete snobs at that dinner. “Myself, I'd rather at any time be knocked down by a man who had got Blood in him, than I'd be picked up by a man who hadnt”
That line made me laugh. Dickens often makes fun of all these people who see class as more important than character.
I’m sure Agnes is already aware of Uriah’s feelings for her.
Yes, Janelle, thanks for the clarification on Blood. Going back to the dinner conversation with those characters makes the whole topic uncomfortable to have to sit and listen to. They really think they’re better don’t they?
Janelle wrote: "Blood is all about aristocracy. They were complete snobs at that dinner. “Myself, I'd rather at any time be knocked down by a man who had got Blood in him, than I'd be picked up by a man who hadnt..."
Janelle, I laughed too. Such out of whack values!
Lori wrote: "Fiona and Bridget, I have to agree with all you've said on Chapter 25. I dislike how David has overridden Agnes' warnings about Steerforth. David even believes she is superior to him in character..."
Sue and Lori - you’re right that it should have been a quid pro quo warning. David has dismissed Agnes’s warning by the time he has his encounter with Heep though so maybe that’s why he doesn’t see it as such. I also wonder about his feelings towards Agnes. Are they a brother for a sister, or more? Surely if more, he would realise he needs to make his feelings known before Uriah? I thought there was a hint that she has feelings for him when she asked who he is in love with currently.
Angela wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Angela wrote: "OMG....young people in love. And the Murdstone is back! Can't say I missed her. What will come of that, I wonder?"What chapter are you on, Angela? Wondering if I’ve m..."
Don’t worry, Angela. You’re just a day ahead. Chapter 26 discussion is Saturday.
Fiona, I have wondered if Agnes has feelings for David though he doesn’t seem conscious of any for her beyond those brotherly ones he has had for so long. I had been expecting him to recognize affection for her but now I am beginning to doubt that it will happen.
Mod
As Janelle said, "blood" when mentioned in an English social situation, always means well bred. The aristocracy were thought to have "good blood", and any defects of character were down to "bad blood" (which got into The Family somehow!)
Chapter 26 is light hearted and shows some growth in David. He is certainly thinking about what Agnes has told him about Steerforth. I’m still so sad to think that Agnes may have sacrificed her future for her father. Could it be that she is aware of Uriah’s desires already, as has been mentioned, and is willing to “do what is right” (in her mind) for her father? Poor Agnes. I thought David had some feelings for her, but not after today’s chapter. Boy, he sure can fall quickly! I love how Dickens writes the young love and it’s pure enjoyment to read. I’m also wondering what Miss Murdstone is doing here? Not with her brother any longer? Wonder why? Anyhow, it’s good that she proposed a sort of truce at least she doesn’t want her connection to David to be known. but well done, David for standing up for your mother and the treatment you received at the hands of the Murdstones! A great accomplishment toward growing up!
Lori - you’re so right! He fell in love with Dora not just quickly but before he even met her. He seems to love the idea of falling in love. When he saw the garden, he was thinking ”Here Miss Spenlow walks by herself....Dear me! Then he meets her and I was swallowed up in an abyss of love in an instant. There was no pausing on the brink; no looking down, or looking back; I was gone, headlong, before I had sense to say a word to her. Very sweet but very idealistic, immature and a wee bit sickly!
He definitely is falling for appearances. Frequent mention of her curls, her skin, and once he does hear her talk, the quality of her voice. He is taken in by surfaces immediately on glimpsing those he “loves.” I think today we would call them crushes though David already has himself marrying her.
Mod
David watches Dora walking her dog in the garden - Fred Barnard
Sue wrote: "Fiona, I have wondered if Agnes has feelings for David though he doesn’t seem conscious of any for her beyond those brotherly ones he has had for so long. I had been expecting him to recognize affe..."He seems to differentiate between lil Em'ly and Agnes, plus his other infatuations. Although like you I wonder about the extent of his self awareness, sometimes.
I wonder too, Angela. He seems to operate on first impressions continually. Sometimes these are borne out, but it’s an immature approach to life.
Fiona, I really liked your insight into how David falls for Dora before he even meets her. It made me go back and re-read that part (I missed that the first time) and the second time through I picked up on the "enchantment" of that garden “it was so beautifully kept, that I was quite enchanted” he says that right as he arrives at the Spenlow house and steps into the garden. After that it's almost like David is under a spell.
Sue wrote: "I wonder too, Angela. He seems to operate on first impressions continually. Sometimes these are borne out, but it’s an immature approach to life."Good point, Sue. I wonder if most of us are like that when we’re young - before experience makes us more wary and cynical.
Bridget wrote: "Fiona, I really liked your insight into how David falls for Dora before he even meets her. It made me go back and re-read that part (I missed that the first time) and the second time through I pick..."A good way of putting it, Bridget - under a spell.
Chapter 27 A nice interlude in which David is reacquainted with Traddles and the Micawbers. It’s a small world!
I just love Traddles. Here's my favorite line of his "For myself, I am fighting my way on in the world against difficulties, and it would be ridiculous if I made a pretence of doing anything else". What a sensible young man. (Its too bad Mr. and Mrs. Micawber don't live that way as well.) It was interesting too how Traddles didn't remember Mr. Creakle treating him badly.
Bridget wrote: "I just love Traddles. Here's my favorite line of his "For myself, I am fighting my way on in the world against difficulties, and it would be ridiculous if I made a pretence of doing anything else"...."I thought that was poignant too, Bridget.
I'm so glad to be learning more about Traddles. I do love that quote as well, Bridget. He seems to want to skirt the Creakle discussion doesn't he? He did remember the caning and played it off very lightly. He seems to be the type to forgive and forget which is quite admirable in a young man. And he's engaged but won't be marrying anytime soon. David is jealous thinking of Dora! How cute to show him the two furniture pieces thinking about the days when he can use them for what they are meant for. I remember the early days of marriage when a small item meant so much!Lovely chapter. I hope we see more of Traddles.
Great comment, Lori. Traddles. Interesting name, too.
Traddles is such an interesting and typical Dickens character name. Love it, and he is an interesting character too. Sorry all, I've been so busy with work that I haven't had much time to chime in lately. So what chapter are we currently on right now?
Chapter 28 is the next to be discussed. Monday was a day off between issues.
Ah! I lose track of the days between issues. Looking forward to tomorrow’s discussion.
Chapter 28 The chapter opens with David pining for Dora. His love-lorn condition made me think of Don Quixote and his devotion to chivalric romance and, for some reason, he insists on walking around in torment from tight boots. Must be a 19th century fashion statement! Dickens seems to be quite fascinated by men’s boots. Hmmmm.While David can be unbelievably naive at times - maybe even usually - he certainly has Micawber’s measure. I was pleased that Traddles had too until we learned what the letter says.
Littimer turning up was odd. I can’t figure out what he’s about. Steerforth is definitely up to something. Is he deliberately delaying David’s return to Yarmouth?
I can't figure Littimer or Steerforth's plan either! Littimer reminds me a bit of Carker from Dombey and Son, with his talking in circles and his smoth veneer hiding... something!
Lori, I think you've hit on exactly what I love about Traddles - his ability to "forgive and forget" - very well put. After reading Chapter 28, I hope he doesn't lose his 23pounds. Thats a lot of money. Are Mr. and Mrs. Micawber working up to getting that money from David?Disastrous dinner parties seem to be a theme for poor David. I did love how Mr. Micawber steps up in a sort of fatherly way with his idea to grill the mutton themselves. And they are all having such a lovely time until Littimer arrives and becomes the higher authority figure in the room. Which is strange, because he is a servant. Is he a good guy or up to no good?? I can't decide, but Jenny may be onto something comparing him to Carker.......I've got to think about that!
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
David Copperfield (other topics)A Message from the Sea (other topics)
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Brilliant! It brought to mind my own......youth. :)
I think Steerforth gets a pass on the Agnes meeting - did he even know her? and how could anyone know she'd be at the theater?