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Proofreading after a copyedit?
Preston, The author is required by the publisher to proofread his work after the copy editing, conceptual editing, and layout design phases are completed. You must sign-off with your final approval before actual production can be scheduled.
Jim, Sorry, I should have mentioned I'm self publishing.
Preston wrote: "Jim, Sorry, I should have mentioned I'm self publishing."
Preston,
I believe that the same basic principle would still apply. One more proofread certainly could not hurt. There is always the possibility that one or two overlooked mistakes may yet be discovered. After that though, I suggest submitting the manuscript for publication. Whatever you decide, I am sure that it will be the best decision for you.
I wish you success.
I'm torn. In the one hand, sending it out without a final review would make me nervous. On the other, there were times that I felt physically ill at the thought of reading an MS again.
Preston wrote: "I've had my manuscript copyedited and it's turning out pretty great thus far! But, I wanted to get some opinions on whether I should have it proofread as well..? Any input is appreciated, thank you."
Yes. Yes. YES. I've read several books where you can tell that wasn't done and there are places where the copy edit changed a sentence or even added/changed a word and something didn't get deleted with the correction. In my opinion, proofreading after a copy edit is a must.
Yes, you should.It doesn't matter if you have the best editor in the world; sometimes even the best editors can miss things.
Preston wrote: "I've had my manuscript copyedited and it's turning out pretty great thus far! But, I wanted to get some opinions on whether I should have it proofread as well..? Any input is appreciated, thank you."
Preston,
The wording "have it proofread" indicates to me that your primary consideration is if you should pay someone to proofread it for you.
Ideally, yes.
My guess is that you're feeling budget constraints, however, and want to know if there's any way around having to shell out more money.
You do have some options:
1. You can try to proofread it yourself. The best way to catch mistakes is to either read it outloud or read each sentences starting with the last one and working your way to the front.
2. I'm assuming you're sending out ARCs to get reviews? You could ask the more "friendly" of those reviewers to please point out any typos. That way, they get fixed before releasing to the public. Note: I'd only do this after proofreading it yourself.
3. Find a good betareader to proof it for you.
Hope this helps.
Brian
Brian wrote: "You can try to proofread it yourself. The best way to catch mistakes is to either read it outloud or read each sentences starting with the last one and working your way to the front...."Both of these work well. If you change your font use a bigger size before you start - it fools your brain into thinking it is a document it never saw before.
I highly recommend it, Preston. I did some "minor" editing of my book after my primary editor finished the copyediting.Thanks to what I thought was minor tinkering, the final book had about ten errors of formatting and spelling (no awful typos, but an 'its' rather than 'it's' etc.).
They have all been fixed now but I wasn't happy my first readers encountered even those. Worth the extra time, and maybe extra dollars, to have a smart set of eyes review the manuscript one last time.
On my last book, I did an active search on both "it's" and "its" and surprised myself with how many errors I found. I did more searches for the obvious errors, and then I proofed and edited the book with seven complete read-throughs before I let it go. If you want it done right by doing it yourself, it takes a lot of work.
With the disclaimer that I offer it as a service, I do recommend getting one last proofread done before sending it out into the world. I DO understand not having the money, though.
To Jennifer's point: If you DONT invest the money in it, and sales of your book go flat or decline, you will always wonder if that is the reason why.Invest the money for a near-perfect book and then at least you eliminate that as a cause for books not selling. You will never have a perfect book. But knowing it is close to perfect buys a lot of peace of mind.
Jeffrey wrote: "To Jennifer's point: If you DONT invest the money in it, and sales of your book go flat or decline, you will always wonder if that is the reason why.Invest the money for a near-perfect book and ..."
I recently retired as the top copy editor for a small publishing house. I'm damned good at my job and still do some on the side. That being said ...
I've NEVER seen a perfect book other than Bibles published by Zondervan (they must, literally, edit the "hell" out of them ;-) ). This includes books by top authors from the big NY houses. Any reader who gets offended by one or two misspelled words or missing comma, is so anal that NO BOOK will please him/her.
Why is this? Because even the best editors are still human. Unless you're going to sell over a million copies of a book, it's not worth the money to make it absolutely, fireproof perfect.
I've never read it, but Fifty Shades of Porn is reputed to contain tons of errors, but it's a best-seller anyway -- IN SPITE OF a large percentage of negative reviews. It's even reputed to have a movie contract.
When the book comes back from your copy editor, read it one more time yourself to make sure the editor(s) didn't mess something up, then send it in and quit agonizing over it. If it doesn't sell at that point, it will be the fault of marketing or content, not grammar.
I've published stuff, under a pen name, that I still wish I could make changes to, so I understand your feelings. But they're gone, out there, and time for me to move on.
I had a good friend who was a superb artist. He'd agonize over a painting, making minute changes here and there, put it aside, work on another, revisit the first one for more "nit picking", etc. He never sold his work because he was afraid to put out something that wasn't absolutely perfect.
Sad.
Don't be him.
I agree with Al. Sort of. That is why I said 'near perfect.' There is nothing wrong with STRIVING for perfection. But there is something wrong with demanding it. You don't want to be Al's painter friend -- never putting anything out there that doesn't meet his definition of perfection. But I disagree with Al that the only reason we write is to sell and make money. At some point, pride in one's product and the quality of what one sends out there into the universe matters to.
That alone is a worthwhile reason to seek a reasonably priced proofreader if you can find one (check the English departments of nearby universities for students who might be worthwhile candidates there).
Since copyeditors can introduce errors by accident, one solid proofread wouldn't hurt. But that should be ALL you need. As Al said, no book is perfect. But there is nothing wrong with taking one extra step to move it that much closer to perfection. Your readers will appreciate that. Good luck!
Excellent points all around.Oh, and Al, 50 Shades 'the movie' is in theaters right now :D
Preston wrote: "Excellent points all around.Oh, and Al, 50 Shades 'the movie' is in theaters right now :D"
I missed that, but then again, I'm not really interested in it, other than to use it as an example of how even sub-par stuff can sell if the market is hungry for it. Now that you mention it, I do kinda remember something about the movie coming out.
I'm a science fiction bug. I'll definitely notice when "Wool" comes out (the little short story that exploded).
another run shouldnt hurt. but if you agongise about perfection it will never get done. despite sending my books for edits (7 rounds), i found 2 glaring errors that somehow missed detection (homophone and a tense error) after its been in print for a year. oh well ish happens...
... Did your copy editor track the changes? I think this is what's confusing me. If you sent the editor a copy as near as perfect as you could make it, and if you know and approve of all the changes the editor suggested, you don't have to read it again.But see my previous comment about nausea. :)
Jeffrey wrote: "... But I disagree with Al that the only reason we write is to sell and make money. At some point, pride in one's product and the quality of what one sends out there into the universe matters to. ..."I can't argue with a desire to put out the best quality, but if you invest so much in editing, you'd better make money (unless you're independently well-off).
I automatically think in terms of profit when making such decisions (comes from working for a publisher). In spite of the fact that all of the books we published were well-written and engaging stories, most books lose money. 20% of our authors kept the doors open and paid the staff; the rest were money losers.
Those who want to "vanity" publish ("I'm an author.") with no thought for sales will achieve their goals in today's world, thanks to Amazon's open market. But that's as far as it's likely to go. If that's what floats your boat, by all means, go for it.
But if you want to make a good second income from your writing, you'll have to make some hard business decisions and the toughest one is knowing when to to quit polishing the tires and put the car on the showroom floor.
Al,There is a difference between vanity/subsidy publishing and self-publishing. I do believe the SFWA pointed it out on its website.
There are some indies who make decent money.
Here's a formula that most people can follow:Create the best product you can. This can involve rewrites (the best books are re-written), re-reading to catch errors, etc.
Get a good cover.
Start making a "launch plan" (that evil word, "marketing"), while you wait on the following edits.
When you can't find anything else to fix, send it to a "story editor" (often called a "content editor"). Someone who's good at doctoring plots, pacing, etc. A good story editor is hard to find because it's a rare person who's REALLY good at it. Many are just glorified copy editors and won't do the job right.
Make sure the story edit works for you. IT'S YOUR BOOK.
Send it to a good copy editor (me if you can get my attention? [grin]). But I'm not the only duck on the beach, there are a number of good copy editors out there (it's easier than being a good story editor).
Make sure the copy edits work.
Execute your launch plan ("publish").
R.F.G. wrote: "Al,There is a difference between vanity/subsidy publishing and self-publishing. I do believe the SFWA pointed it out on its website.
There are some indies who make decent money."
"Vanity" publishing is a mindset, no matter how the book gets out there. If someone publishes for ego's sake with no thought towards the business end, that's "vanity".
One thing I would add to the above formula, if you're married make sure the Spouse is fully aware of how much time/money you plan to spend on each step.
Al wrote: ""Vanity" publishing is a mindset, no matter how the book gets out there. If someone publishes for ego's sake with no thought towards the business end, that's "vanity"..."LOL
I can agree with that part to a point.
Vanity tends to be why so many people go to extremes, whether it's amassing more wealth than they could possibly use while others starve or mutilating themselves in an effort to look 'better'.
There is a distinction between craftsmanship and business.
I'd say when all is said and done, my costs will be around $700 total. But I spent that money over time and found a really great copyeditor. I plan on making my own book cover. I'm in it to put out a good, polished product. Business and making a living are the last things on my mind, for now.
I've set up a few social sites, but am not getting heavily into marketing and advance copies and all that. Not yet, at least.
Preston wrote: "I'd say when all is said and done, my costs will be around $700 total. But I spent that money over time and found a really great copyeditor.
I plan on making my own book cover. I'm in it to put o..."
My suggestion is to attempt proofreading on your own - reading aloud, reading backwards are both excellent suggestions - because you have to careful about what aspects of the publication process you want to invest. As someone said earlier, 50 Shades of Grey, and plenty of trad-published books have typos and errors, and people forgive. I'm not advocating for mistakes, though. But the investment in a proofreader may not be worth the return.
HOWEVER, if you're going to spend money, I'd spend it on a book cover. 99designs.com is where I plan to seek designs for my first publication. A cover and a snazzy description will go a LONG way to snapping up readers.
I plan on making my own book cover. I'm in it to put o..."
My suggestion is to attempt proofreading on your own - reading aloud, reading backwards are both excellent suggestions - because you have to careful about what aspects of the publication process you want to invest. As someone said earlier, 50 Shades of Grey, and plenty of trad-published books have typos and errors, and people forgive. I'm not advocating for mistakes, though. But the investment in a proofreader may not be worth the return.
HOWEVER, if you're going to spend money, I'd spend it on a book cover. 99designs.com is where I plan to seek designs for my first publication. A cover and a snazzy description will go a LONG way to snapping up readers.
Thanks, JH. I've also heard people buying covers from Fiverr.com for a whopping $5, and it's legit. You pay more, though, for re-designs and what not, but it's a good starting point.
Preston wrote: "Thanks, JH. I've also heard people buying covers from Fiverr.com for a whopping $5, and it's legit. You pay more, though, for re-designs and what not, but it's a good starting point."
Wow - $5 seems too good to be true.
Wow - $5 seems too good to be true.
Just checked it out - doesn't look half bad!
There are also some talented graphic artists who will do custom cover art for indies at a drastically reduced price (i.e.: what the author can afford), because they're sick of bad covers.You might pay $100 to $400, but it will be what you want.
R.F.G. wrote: "There are also some talented graphic artists who will do custom cover art for indies at a drastically reduced price (i.e.: what the author can afford), because they're sick of bad covers.
You migh..."
Last week I got a quote from an illustrator in Toronto, and she quoted me (I said I was indie) $1,000 for a cover, spine, back cover and dust jacket flaps. $500 for just a cover. Wish that was true! :( Or I got the wrong designer!
You migh..."
Last week I got a quote from an illustrator in Toronto, and she quoted me (I said I was indie) $1,000 for a cover, spine, back cover and dust jacket flaps. $500 for just a cover. Wish that was true! :( Or I got the wrong designer!
JH,I've heard some good things about Fiverr. Of course, I'd check each artists work and ask for references.
JH Mae wrote: "Last week I got a quote from an illustrator in Toronto, and she quoted me (I said I was indie) $1,000 for a cover, spine, back cover and dust jacket flaps. $500 for just a cover. Wish that was true! :( Or I got the wrong designer! ..."Check your PM.
The artist in question has a GR profile.
JH Mae wrote: "Thanks!! :)"If you let him have a free hand, he does some amazing work and you'll love the result. He told me I was a rare writer, because I didn't tell him how it had to look.
If I could afford to get my last novel copy-edited the cover he made would for it would be a selling point.
I don't have a budget and we're trying to get into a house, so...
$1,000 is insane! I'd rather spend that money on a copyeditor.Heck, what does that artist charge for a re-design, or a slight change in the blurb? :0
K.P. wrote: "another run shouldnt hurt. but if you agongise about perfection it will never get done. despite sending my books for edits (7 rounds), i found 2 glaring errors that somehow missed detection (homoph..."Had an English teacher and an English professor (from my writing group) do the final proofs of my novel. Both missed the same error. Hear instead of here. Those homophone's are difficult to detect. Does anyone know if there's a program that searches for homophones?
Preston wrote: "$1,000 is insane! I'd rather spend that money on a copyeditor.Heck, what does that artist charge for a re-design, or a slight change in the blurb? :0"
Check your PM, contact the artist, and let him know what you can afford. He is a gentleman.
As for copy-editors, the cheapest I found wanted over $800 for the word count on my last completed novel, most of the rest wanted roughly $1,200, and one wanted to charge by double-spaced page count times word count times the rate of inflation for Betelgeuse.
I used Thomas Shutt. Awesome copyeditor, he went above and beyond in my 95,000-word manuscript. I will be using him in the future, and his prices are great. Mine only cost $450. -end shameless plug :)
Preston wrote: "I used Thomas Shutt. Awesome copyeditor, he went above and beyond in my 95,000-word manuscript. I will be using him in the future, and his prices are great. Mine only cost $450. -end shameless plu..."
Might have to write his name down for someday.
My little novel is 140,000 words with another 7,000 words in appendices.
If nothing else Tiny Demon won't be quite as time intensive once she's a little older.
Make sure you check the copyright in your contract for cover designs. Some are US only. Some have a limited use (like, 500 downloads or something).
I assume if you pay for a cover design, they send you a digital file to be used forever. If it were me, I'd back up that image a couple times.
Somewhere above, confusion seemed to set in on what the discussion was about. The issue (unless I am misreading something) was not, 'Should one put out a book to make money or should one put out a book to feed one's ego?'However, that is what the discussion became.
Instead, the question before us was, "Is the cost of a proofreader worth taking your manuscript to one more level of excellence?" COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ISSUE.
If a proofreader is going to completely bankrupt your project, then yes you are definitely paying much too much for a proofreader. But if you plan to write several books, and you are looking at your career LONG-TERM, then I cannot see how investing an extra $200-$300 to ensure your first one is typo-free will turn you into a loser.
Those who have taken Entrepreneurship 101 know most new businesses of any sort don't turn a profit until Year 3. How much you impress your customers in Year 1 and 2 determines whether Year 3 is a success or a flop.
I know. My writing workshops lost money the first two years I was doing them. 30 years later, I am still self-employed and doing them. ;-)
I wouldn't recommend spending 6 months and $1,500 trying to get it typo free. But I don't think twice about recommending someone INVEST $250 to make sure you are professional as can be coming out of the chute.
Unless you really do view this book as a one-timer and don't care about crafting a career from writing, really. If that is the case, I'd say go for it with what you've got.
I would like to do proof reading/ editing.
Jeffrey wrote: "Unless you really do view this book as a one-timer and don't care about crafting a career from writing, really. If that is the case, I'd say go for it with what you've got."An alternate view, define what your goal with writing is, then spend what you can afford to work toward that objective.
Damon wrote: "I would like to do proof reading/ editing."Do you like Sci-Fi?
Any input is appreciated, thank you.