21st Century Literature discussion
This topic is about
Borne
4/21 Borne
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Borne - Full Book Discussion (spoilers ok)
Part 1 includes Rachel finding Borne, starting to grow and talk, ending before they go outside for the first time.What were your initial impressions? How did you picture Borne in your mind?
And what were your impressions of this world VanderMeer created?
Aside from the trademark Vandermeer wierdness, Part 1 is rather charming, with Born learning and ingenuous. There's an understated humor. One example that's ~almost~ in Part 1 is on pg. 69, where Rachel is gearing up for a sortie, picking up "a lump of something aged that might've been meat or bread but [which] Wick assured me was edible." It reminds me of a scene in The Odd Couple where Oscar is getting a sandwich for Felix: "What one do you want, brown or green?"
I read this , and adored it. I loved Borne.
Jennifer, thinking about Part 1 and the early days of Borne, what did you like about him?I really liked learning about Rachel's world through Borne's eyes. We don't really understand what happened, or who The Company, or The Magician is but Borne is in a similar clueless state. Although he learns a lot quicker than I do. :)
What were your initial impressions of Mord? He seems god-like in the beginning, which confused me.
Also, FYI there's a "Bestiary" listing at the end of the book, that has fantastic drawings and definitions that I wish I'd known about at the beginning of the book. "Autonomous meat" was my favorite listing.
Bretnie, A Bestiary, eh? I'll have a look! Mord was a ~little~ problematic. Big is one thing, but Hindenburg sized, even office building sized, is really "out there." Reality seems to reign for most things: water condenses, stuff falls down; but Mord is both levitating and heavy enough to casually crush buildings. My suspension of disbelief is getting a little shaky.
Bretnie wrote: "Jennifer, thinking about Part 1 and the early days of Borne, what did you like about him?I really liked learning about Rachel's world through Borne's eyes. We don't really understand what happene..."
Mord is terrifying. He makes me think of the Bear in Annilation.
I wanted to hold and squeeze Borne. He was just so...interesting.
I know this is about Borne, but Dead Astronauts is kinda the follow up.
Mark wrote: "Bretnie, A Bestiary, eh? I'll have a look! Mord was a ~little~ problematic. Big is one thing, but Hindenburg sized, even office building sized, is really "out there." Reality seems to reign for m..."
Mord inhabits his own reality , he doesn't need anyone elses.
Mod
I wanted to hold and squeeze Borne. He was just so...interesting.
I know this is about Borne, but Dead Astronauts is kinda the follow up"
I kept thinking of the bear in Annihilation as well *shudder*. Listening to he audiobook, the voice the reader did for Borne made him even more huggable.
Have you read Dead Astronauts yet? It just came up on my library hold. The Strange Bird: A Borne Story is the other work set in the Borne universe. (Said Strange Bird is also referenced in the Bestiary at the end of Borne that Bretnie mentioned previously).
Jennifer wrote: "Mord inhabits his own reality , he doesn't need anyone elses."Ha! For some reason, Mark, I cared less about his flying and crazy size and more about why people treated him like a god. But I thought the Mord clones were fascinating and terrifying.
Let's open the discussion up through Part 2. In Part 2, Rachel and Borne go outside, Rachel gets attacked, and goes through Borne leaving.
How was the book evolving for you as Borne expanded his world, and Rachel and Wick's relationship with Borne (and each other) change?
Whitney wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "Mord is terrifying. He makes me think of the Bear in Annilation. I wanted to hold and squeeze Borne. He was just so...interesting.
I know this is about Borne, but Dead Astronauts..."
I did read it. I liked it. But there is so much to pay attention to...so many details, but all the books are that way. I kept thinking back to Borne.
I don't know what is was exaclty and why I loved Borne in the same way Rachel did. I wanted to take care of him and watch him grow and see what he became...like a child, How do you suddenly love a little fluff that talks? He was a growing thing in a dead world...maybe..
Mod
It's like he was the best of a pet combined with the best of a child. All the wonder and affection without the diapers. I'd say the murderous tendencies were a negative, but, then, I have cats.
Whitney wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I don't know what is was exaclty and why I loved Borne in the same way Rachel did. I wanted to take care of him and watch him grow and see what he became...like a child, How do you..."My kitten suffocates me every night.
Whitney wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "It's like he was the best of a pet combined with the best of a child. All the wonder and affection without the diapers. I'd say the murderous tendencies were a negative, but, then, I have cats."Ha!
After we'd grown to love Borne so much, what did you think of his betrayal of Rachel and Wick when he impersonated him? Kind of broke my heart that they had him leave, but he certainly grew more dangerous.
Mod
[I'm running off now to avoid spoilers!]
Of course, a central tragedy of child raising is that they leave. Eventually. Hopefully.
Mod
:D
Mod
I think I'll flip the question and ask if you thought it was a betrayal from Borne's perspective? In his mind, he was trying to smooth things over between them; like a child incompetently trying to fix mom and dad fighting.
Whitney wrote: "I think I'll flip the question and ask if you thought it was a betrayal from Borne's perspective? In his mind, he was trying to smooth things over between them; like a child incompetently trying to fix mom and dad fighting."
Oh yeah, that's a great way of putting it! I can totally see from Borne's perspective how he has so much knowledge that he wants to put to use in the best way he can. And then the people he's trying to "help" hate him for it.
I think it's in Part 2 that we learn more about The Magician. What were your impressions of her? Is she the enemy or a hero? It's the Magician vs Mord, but where do regular people side?
Whitney wrote: "Bretnie wrote: "After we'd grown to love Borne so much, what did you think of his betrayal of Rachel and Wick when he impersonated him? "I think I'll flip the question and ask if you thought it w..."
I was thinking about this and about Borne being the best pet/child. Humans have a tendancy to apply human thoughts, emotions, etc onto things, lets say our pets, that are not human. Maybe he was doing what he was designed to do in a differnt way because of Rachels influence...
Mod
I will go with that oft quoted proverb, "When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers."
I dunno....Mord is just Mord and is doing what he does as he was designed...he is not EVIL. He is just .... destructive...maybe he is suffering...
A quote that I really liked as Borne is trying to understand who he is:“Am I a person or a weapon?"
Always he wanted to know that he was a person. He just kept giving me different choices so one time I might slip up and say, "You're not a person."
"You are a person. But like a person, you can be a weapon, too.”
Also relevant to our pet/child/anyone you love analogy with Borne:
"Borne made me happy, but happiness never made anyone less stupid”
I recently re-read Frankenstein with my teenage daughter, and this book is in very strong conversation with that so if you haven't read it I highly recommend it! In Frankenstein the monster doesn't get a name, he is abandoned with horror by everyone who can see him, no one is willing to carry or love him (he is not "borne" by anyone), and as a result he becomes totally warped. Here is the opposite, a creature designed to be destructive, who because of the humanity with which he is treated, wrestles with inner demons and yearns for a moral life.
Mod
Good call, Frankenstein is an excellent companion piece. The ur example of destruction being wrought by a creature who is himself a victim, thanks to human arrogance and ambition. Or, to quote the ever quotable Ian Malcom, "... your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should."
Whitney wrote: Or, to quote the ever quotable Ian Malcom, "... your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should." That quote pretty much applies to the Company in total (without going into spoilers yet because we haven't opened up Part 3).
The Company makes me think of The Company in Alien/Aliens.
Mod
Good old Weyland-Yutani! I have a hat with their logo around here somewhere. Maybe even closer would be the Tyrell Corporation from Bladerunner, in their creation of bioengineered life forms and their indifference to the resulting suffering.
These days, I think one would be hard pressed to find a 'good' corporation in science fiction, most of them are killing people and/or destroying the environment in quest of the all important profits. The only counter examples that come to mind are the ones owned by comic book billionaires, i.e Wayne Enterprises and Stark Industries. And even Stark Industries initially made their money selling weapons.
Sorry I'm so far off track, but I blame Jennifer for bringing up Alien. My inner geek immediately took over and could not be stopped.
Ha, excellent analogies and tangents. I feel like naming them The Company just us up for them to be evil. I can't picture a novel where something named "The Company" has any positive qualities.
Are people ready to discuss the whole book?
Whitney wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "The Company makes me think of The Company in Alien/Aliens."Good old Weyland-Yutani! I have a hat with their logo around here somewhere. Maybe even closer would be the Tyrell Corp..."
Oh yes...Bladerunner.
I agree Bretnie, anything that is labed The Company is just bad....we don't ned to think much beyond that.
Another poignant thought about parenthood: "I'd been teaching him the whole time, with every last little
thing I did, even when I didn't realize I was teaching him. With
every last little thing I did, not just those things I tried to teach
him. Every moment I had been teaching him, and how I wanted
now to take back some of those moments."
A friend of mine was shocked when her ~3yr. old started using swear words, and then realized that her kid learned them from her.
Bretnie, uh, sadly, my copy doesn't have the bestiary. And it's an actual dead tree book, 1st edition, 2017, ISBN 9780374115241. Sigh.
Mod
Sadly, my ebook doesn't have it either. But you can find the Bestiary here:
https://www.mcdbooks.com/features/bor...
Thanks for calling it to our attention, Bretnie.
Whitney wrote: "Mark wrote: "Bretnie, uh, sadly, my copy doesn't have the bestiary. And it's an actual dead tree book, 1st edition, 2017, ISBN 9780374115241. Sigh."Sadly, my ebook doesn't have it either. But you..."
Oh, Now I will have to check my book...
Whew, thanks for the link Whitney! I have a physical book as well and it has it - I love the scientific drawings!I think let's open the discussion to the whole book. Things really take a turn after Borne leaves.
What were your thoughts as the book wrapped up? What were your impressions of Wick's revealed secrets about himself and Rachel?
Mark wrote: "Another poignant thought about parenthood: "I'd been teaching him the whole time, with every last little
thing I did, even when I didn't realize I was teaching him. With
every last little thing I..."
I loved this line! So true!
As to part 3, well, VanderMeer certainly got them out of their house! Their adventures filled out the images of the city they're living in. I wasn't sure how to interpret Wick's letter. Was he saying that he himself was a biotech Company creation? Borne's size evolution had some of the difficulty of suspension of disbelief I'd felt when watching Mord flying. Mord had taken years to get to his size, while Borne apparently reached a similar size in weeks, and without leaving a vacuumed biosphere behind.Bretnie, thanks for leading this discussion. I never would have read this unless it was in the discussion lineup, and it helped me learn about an author I never knew existed (even though I'd seen Annihilation).
Mark, I think Wick is definitely biotech - she finds all the faces of Wick in an abandoned room which made it seem clear. My heart broke some for Mord when we got the story of his origins as a human. In terms of the size, Borne has to match Mord, just as their names make a pair, so the metaphorical aspect of that was okay with me. Did people feel like it turned weirdly utopian in the end? A society that loses its organizing power structures and cult leaders and religion, full of people and animals warped by the will to hate suddenly a small d democratic village? That's where I had suspend my disbelief, hahaha.
Borne's sacrifice, his fear and triumph at making the world safe for Rachel, the triumph of nurture over nature, also a bit cute, although definitely satisfying.
Thanks for that reminder Mark - I wasn't sure, so I checked the book and here's a passage:"Then came Borne, and I couldn't take Borne from you because I had meddled in your life too much already. You kept asking me if Borne was a person. But I didn't believe I was a person, Rachel. So I couldn't tell you.
Because what you will learn, Rachel, is that I am not what you think I am. I am more like Borne, and every time you told me he was human, I felt less real."
Jenna wrote: "Did people feel like it turned weirdly utopian in the end? A society that loses its organizing power structures and cult leaders and religion, full of people and animals warped by the will to hate suddenly a small d democratic village? That's where I had suspend my disbelief, hahaha."
Jenna, what a strange utopia - a mix of humans scarred by Mord and The Company and the Magician, and all that leftover biotech!
What points do you guys think VanderMeer is trying to make with this book? Beyond "pets are fun until they become murderous giants."
I should re-read this...I forgot details, these books are just full of details that all are meaningful.
Also, Wick is Biotech. For sure.
Mod
“Rachel is a Biblical name that goes back to the Old Testament. It's derived from the Ancient Hebrew name “Rahel”, meaning “ewe”, “lamb”, or “sheep”. ... In Biblical times it symbolized a special, rare ewe. This was a highly positive meaning.”
Mord means “murder” in German.
Bretnie asked: What points do you guys think VanderMeer is trying to make with this book? Beyond "pets are fun until they become murderous giants."
One need be very careful what books you leave around a pet that can read! My impression is that VanderMeer writes with certain larger topics in mind (the dangers of technology/mass production, destruction of ecology/environment) but these are more disastrous effects displayed in his world rather than trying to strictly define points or send a heavy pedantic message to his readers. I keep coming back to this quote:
"but this was always the test of our relationship. Were we symbiotic or parasitic?"
That seems the crux of all the relationships/dynamics, not just Wick and Rachel. To what extent are our relationships (to others, to nature, to commerce, etc.) symbiotic or parasitic (or, I guess, just outright predatory)?
Mod
Gosh, Marc, that's such a great passage to pull out for the "what does it all mean" question! Seems like such a fine line between symbiotic and parasitic. Doesn't take much to throw off the balance.I think the other thing that pops up with Borne and VanderMeer is how we evolve. As individual humans, and as a society. Sometimes we have to rebuild, or forget, or create something new to forge ahead.
Mod
Regarding Jenna's comment that it was weirdly utopian in the end, VanderMeer has said in interviews that he doesn't like fiction that's totally hopeless, and one of his goals is to push people out of their complacency. I also agree with Bretnie that, while the situation may seem like Utopia compared to what came before, it's still pretty much a horrific dystopia from where most of us stand today.
While I enjoyed Borne quite a bit (even more on the re-read), I would say The Southern Reach Trilogy remains the best VanderMeer. And City of Saints and Madmen remains a personal favorite.
I just finished The Strange Bird: A Borne Story, and recommend it for anyone who liked Borne. A view of the situation from a different perspective.
Mod
In reading through a few GR friends' reviews, it seems some feel his more recent work is not as strong as his previous work, but it doesn't sound like Whitney feels that way.
How did you all react to the introduction and re-appearance(s) of the "dead astronauts"?
"Something in me was tired of how the dead astronauts kept switching their allegiance, of the way these bodies kept being disrespected, had no fixed address or location. In truth, I didn’t want to ever see them again.
21st Century Literature
Books mentioned in this topic
Kindred (other topics)The Strange Bird: A Borne Story (other topics)
Dead Astronauts (other topics)
The Strange Bird: A Borne Story (other topics)
The Strange Bird: A Borne Story (other topics)
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I'll post some Part 1 questions tomorrow to get us started!