Borne - Background and General Discussion (no spoilers)

[Bretnie]

Hi everyone, we'll be starting our discussion of Borne soon! We'll use this thread for spoiler-free discussion. I'll start with some background questions tomorrow.

In the meantime, is this your first VanderMeer book, or have you read others?

[Catherine]

I read Annihilation, and didn't love it. It was too much like watching the TV show Lost, where stuff happens, nothing makes sense, and it's all kind of eerie. I watched the movie based on the book, and, strangely, it has almost no relation to it beyond the basic outline of the story. I'm hoping Borne lives up to its hype.

[Marc]

This is the second VanderMeer book I own, but the first I will have actually read---I plan to start it this weekend. I believe Waterstones hosted a virtual chat today between VanderMeer and David Mitchell to discuss his latest book, Hummingbird Salamander.

I'm excited!

[Whitney]

Marc wrote: "This is the second VanderMThe Third Beareer book I own, but the first I will have actually read---I plan to start it this weekend. I believe Waterstones hosted a virtual chat today between VanderMeer and David M..."

I've read several Vandermeer. Area X: The Southern Reach Trilogy, City of Saints and Madmen, Finch, Shriek: An Afterword, and Borne. I've preordered Hummingbird Salamander.

Unlike Catherine, I loved Annihilation (I read the Southern Reach Trilogy twice). I read Borne when it came out, so it's not exactly fresh, but I'll at least follow the discussion.

[Bretnie]

Thanks for that link Marc!

Here's an interview with VanderMeer about the book:
https://weirdfictionreview.com/2017/0...

"In Borne, I wanted the people and animals to stand out in stark relief from the setting, and even in purposefully calling the biotech company The Company played into that, especially because I wanted to explore the end results of a situation we often find today — where some multi-national corporation comes into an area, sucks out the resources, destroys the environment, and none of it helps people locally."

I've read the Southern Reach Trilogy and am intrigued by anything called "weird fiction," so I've been wanting more!

[Bretnie]

Also, FYI for the full book discussion, I'm going to start with Part 1 (just before Rachel and Borne go outside for the first time) and open up discussion over the next week or so to Part 2 and 3. Hoping it will have more of a read-along feel than all or nothing.

I'll post here when we start talking about the next parts.

[Marc]

I saw another GR member who listened to the talk posted that VanderMeer announced a book 4 in the Southern Reach series yesterday.

Sounds like a good setup for the discussion, Bretnie and thanks for getting me to actually read some VanderMeer!

[Mark]

I'm reading now. I did see Annihilation, so the wierd animals were, in a strange way, familiar. I have no idea where he's going with this, though!

[Mark]

There's a vid of a Politcs and Prose booktalk Vandermeer gave in 2017 about Borne:
https://youtu.be/3b-TySw69kY

Eeeh, mostly, "Buy my book."

[Bretnie]

Thanks for the link Mark, and glad you're joining us for the discussion. I felt that way through the whole book - I don't know where it's going, but I like it!

[Whitney]

I just started a re-read, this time as an audiobook. I'm liking it even more the second time around.

[Mark]

Hmmm, I've found audio books are a good way to have a second pass at something; you'll be able to fill in spots where your attention wavered.

[Bretnie]

I just opened the other thread to discussing through Part 2.

[Marc]

Steeling this link from lark who posted it in another group:
How Jeff VanderMeer Prevents Writer's Block (it's basically an interview where he drops the names of a lot of books and writers he enjoys)

Just finished Part 1 of Borne and am plunging into Part 2 tonight.

[Jenna]

I have finished part 1 and like it so far - its weird to say it's a more realistic feel to an alternative tech post-apocalyptic novel, but I feel like the relationships and daily lives are believable, genre can be so melodramatic.

I have a general discussion question - what do people think about the protagonist being female? Did he do this because he doesnt think a male would have bonded with a creature? since he is male it seems odd kind of stereotyping that he feels the need to take on a female narrator in order to have this relationship develop.

[Marc]

That's a great question, Jenna. I briefly noted this when I started and thought, "hmm, interesting choice." At least in the first part, nothing about the narrator felt forced or artificial to me (i.e., Rachel seemed a credible female character to me). As for his feeling "the need to take on a female narrator in order to have this relationship develop" -- is that something VanderMeer said in an interview or your take on his choice? Certainly, it's stereotypical to give a female the nurturing/maternal role, but not an odd stereotype and her other characteristics are not confining or insulting to her gender (intelligence, independence, toughness, humor, etc.).

I guess what you've got me asking myself is: Would I have paused at all to consider that the MC was female if the author was female? Probably not.

[Whitney]

Jenna wrote: "I have finished part 1 and like it so far - its weird to say it's a more realistic feel to an alternative tech post-apocalyptic novel, but I feel like the relationships and daily lives are believab..."

My immediate thought was "why not a woman"? VanderMeer made all the main characters in Annihilation women, partially in response to most novels with a group of adventurers making them all or majority male. So I think one part of having female protagonists is a conscious effort to step away from the everyday sexism of many novels by men.

My more considerate response is that I think you're correct that one (if not the main) reason she's female is that VanderMeer wanted Rachel to have a mother-child type relationship with Borne. But I don't think it's sexist to want to explore how that relationship would play out in the twisted world of the novel, where what is "normal biology" has become undefinable, and where almost all relationships have become transactional. Had Rachel been reduced solely to the "nurturing mother" role, then I think claims of sexism would have been more justified, but she is much more than that.

I recall an interview where VanderMeer said that part of the impetus behind the characters was exploring his experience as a step-father. I think it would have been a poorer novel if the resentful Wick had been the POV character.

We may be treading on spoiler territory here. So I'll add there's another major character that would have been male in most similar novels, and making her female struck me as another subtly subversive choice.

[Bretnie]

Interesting question Jenna - VanderMeer's Southern Reach Trilogy has a female protagonist also. Well, at least most of the books do.

I think Part 2 includes The Magician, so we're welcome to pick up the discussion about The Magician and Rachel in the full book discussion thread.

[Jenna]

I agree Whitney that Wick should not be the POV person, its more that I wonder if even though VanderMeer is clearly capable of having a loving parenting relationship and imagining one for his characters, he cant see that as a potentially perfectly acceptable masculine trait, so that he consistently chooses to place himself in a female narrator. I don't think he should have stereotypical males either, my question is really why not an un-masculine male? In contrast to the Southern Reach Trilogy, Rachel and Wick actually have a very classic power dynamic in their relationship. Don't misunderstand me, one of my favorite movies is Aliens which I think works so well because Weaver was cast into a roll written for a man and so she got to be a non-gendered female. Similarly, this story could be flipped, with Wick being a geeked out science-y female and Ray (instead of Rachel) being a sensitive male.

[Mark]

Hmmm. Well, at the Politics and Prose booktalk, he appeared beside his wife, referring to her as his editor. I don't imagine much of the text went unreviewed. As another perspective, babies can be pretty unforgiving of a caregiver that can't lactate, (I've seen it myself, and heard someone else notice it too) so Rachel's problems dealing with an alien "child" might track VanderMeer's experiences.

[Whitney]

Jenna wrote: "I agree Whitney that Wick should not be the POV person, its more that I wonder if even though VanderMeer is clearly capable of having a loving parenting relationship and imagining one for his chara..."

I'm not sure what you mean by VanderMeer consistently placing himself in a female narrator. Rachel is the narrator, so the entire book is from her perspective. Are you arguing for inconsistency?

As for the rest, I think you've veered off into the territory of the book you wish had been written, rather than the book that was written. Could those ideas be explored in an interesting way? Sure, they can and have been (and many times they've been presented in trite and not so interesting ways). But they're not the ideas VanderMeer chose to explore.

[Jenna]

Whitney wrote: "Jenna wrote: "I agree Whitney that Wick should not be the POV person, its more that I wonder if even though VanderMeer is clearly capable of having a loving parenting relationship and imagining one..."

Hey Whitney, by consistently I meant with all the female perspectives in SRT as well as here. So its a question about VanderMeer as an author and not totally book specific. And I agree this is a tangential question to the narrative, that's why I have it in the no spoilers thread :) I'm enjoying the book and I dont want Rachel to be male, I'm just thinking about how and why male authors make the choice to take on a female POV. Maybe its a future topic of the week thread instead!

[Marc]

There's a Bookriot interview ("Weird & New Weirder: An Interview w/ Jeff VanderMeer") where he's specifically asked a question about his female characters. He doesn't so much answer the why, although, I think a lot of artistic choices are often subconscious and he mentions a lot of female mentors and influences growing up. I'm sure every writer is a little different, but it's often the case they discover the character as they are writing and not that they choose the character first.

Why writers choose to write characters that are not of their own gender/sexuality/race and how effective they are at such attempts would make a really fascinating Question of the Week---thanks for the suggestion!

[Whitney]

I just found out that VanderMeer wrote a Predator book, and now I'm mildly obsessed with reading it. (Not obsessed enough to pay $70 for a paperback, though.)

Predator: South China Sea

[Bretnie]

FYI - We just opened up the spoiler thread to discussing the whole book.

[Bryan--The Bee’s Knees]

As soon as I can find the book on my shelves, I'm going to start. Little behind, but the way this year's reading is going, to be only a month behind is almost like being caught up.

[Marc]

Bryan, most of us get notices when someone posts in a discussion, so I'm sure one of us will chime in when you're done and want to chat. Hope you enjoy it!

[Bryan--The Bee’s Knees]

I finally found it...hidden away in the corner of a shelf behind a chair. Started yesterday--going to look at some of the initial comments now