Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Austen, Pride and Prejudice
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Week 1: Vol. I, Chapters I - XII
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Tamara wrote: "I have to say something about Mary because I really feel sorry for her. She is the middle child that gets lost in the shuffle. It doesn't look as if she has anything going for her. She is describ..."
There is certainly that side of it, the overlooked child, and in her awkward manner makes things worse for herself. But Mary did pique my interest. In Chapter 5 Elizabeth and Charlotte talk of Mr. Darcy's pride, and Mary interjects this:
"Pride," observed Mary, who piqued herself upon the solidity of her reflections, "is a very common failing, I believe. By all that I have ever read, I am convinced that it is very common indeed; that human nature is particularly prone to it, and that there are very few of us who do not cherish a feeling of self-complacency on the score of some quality or other, real or imaginary. Vanity and pride are different things, though the words are often used synonymously. A person may be proud without being vain. Pride relates more to our opinion of ourselves, vanity to what we would have others think of us."
Yes, coming from her that sounds rather pompous, but everything she says in this statement is true. She gave us a definition on the vice of pride, the first word in the title of the book, and how it contrasts to vanity. It is as if she personifies the voice of right reason. We'll have to see how this develops further but it seems to me Mary has a definite role here.
Tamara wrote: "I have to say something about Mary because I really feel sorry for her. She is the middle child that gets lost in the shuffle. It doesn't look as if she has anything going for her. She is describ..."
The introduction to my edition discusses how Mary has done all this reading, but has no experience to back it up, so she comes across as silly. As for being plain, at some point it is mentioned that her mother employs a ladies' maid who is shared amongst the 6 of them and who helps them to dress and do their hair in order of age. I like to imagine that Lydia and Kitty, being so into fashion and hair, and being so impatient, started experimenting on each other. I also imagine that Mary, 4th in line and left out by her sisters, settled for perfunctory service from the maid at best.
My favourite exchange from chapter 1:What is his name?'
'Bingley.'
'Is he married or single?'
'Oh! single, my dear, to be sure! A single man of large fortune; four or five thousand a year. What a fine thing for our girls!'
'How so? how can it affect them?'
'My dear Mr. Bennet,' replied his wife, 'how can you be so tiresome! You must know that I am thinking of his marrying one of them.'
'Is that his design in settling here?'
'Design! nonsense, how can you talk so! But it is very likely that he may fall in love with one of them, and therefore you must visit him as soon as he comes.'
And then I love that in chapter 2 her idea of who Bingley should marry is Lydia, so clearly her favourite child. And Lydia's like, yup, I'm the tallest so he'll definitely want me.
Kerstin wrote: "Paraphrasing my footnotes, Etiquette required *young ladies* to be accompanied when on walks. "Perhaps Austen is showing how narrow and uninformed London high society's opinions of the country can be? I can't help feeling that not having a horse or carriage at one's disposal in the country when one must absolutely be somewhere was a common problem. It's not like you could run out onto the gravel path and wave down a cab.
And what's with Jane's illness? Is she really ill? Or is she a bit more clever than her mother and sister give her credit for? The politics and games run deep here.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "Paraphrasing my footnotes, Etiquette required *young ladies* to be accompanied when on walks. "Perhaps Austen is showing how narrow and uninformed London high society's opinions o..."
I think this may show how primitive the medical knowledge was back then. Come to think of it, even nowadays, some people still believe you can catch a cold by just being wet or cold. Even if she caught it from someone from Netherfield, it's amazing how she caught a cold on the same day she got drenched in rain, considering the incubation period of any respiratory virus I know of. I would have been more convinced if she couldn't go back due the weather (if it was like Lockwood's situation in Wuthering Heights)
Susanna wrote: "Borum wrote: "I thought I was Elizabeth before I got married (I also had no intentions of getting married) but I turned out a Charlotte. Sigh..Ha! I thought I was Jo March, but I turned out a Meg."
LOL I have experienced many changes in my self-knowledge AND literary sympathy since those years. I seem to have shed most of my vanity (or pride?) but I am glad to recognize the hidden good in Mary and Charlotte. I just watched the 2005 movie on Netflix and I am quite sorry to see Mary so ill-treated. I was more involved in books and my own thoughts than dancing or parties or boys. I would have definitely been more close to Mary than Kitty or Lydia even back then. Jane and even Elizabeth are described as being lovely and witty and all that but Mary and Charlotte are described as rather 'plain' and it's somewhat hurting to see Mary derided as someone with unattractive inner qualities as well.
Borum wrote: "I think this may show how primitive the medical knowledge was back then. Come to think of it, even nowadays, some people still believe you can catch a cold by just being wet or cold. It's amazing how she caught a cold on the same day she got drenched in rain, considering the incubation period of any respiratory virus I know of."Let's look at the text:
"MY DEAREST LIZZY,-- "I find myself very unwell this morning, which, I suppose, is to be imputed to my getting wet through yesterday. My kind friends will not hear of my returning till I am better. They insist also on my seeing Mr. Jones--therefore do not be alarmed if you should hear of his having been to me--and, excepting a sore throat and headache, there is not much the matter with me.--Yours, etc."It looks like she is being pampered a bit, because Jane herself doesn't think she is all that sick. What may have happened is that she got a mild case of hypothermia. From chapter 1 we know this is sometime in the fall after Michaelmas (the feast of Saint Michael) or 29 September, so by this point we're well into October or November.
Kerstin wrote: "Borum wrote: "I think this may show how primitive the medical knowledge was back then. Come to think of it, even nowadays, some people still believe you can catch a cold by just being wet or cold. ..."I've thought of the possibility of hypothermia but sore throat doesn't match the symptoms. Perhaps she already had a cold virus before she got there and got worse due to the coldness and she might have not informed her family to the full extent of her illness to keep them from worrying. Or perhaps she DID get pampered because she doesn't seem the scheming type if she's so nice as Elizabeth says she is, but who knows. :-)
"Mary wished to say something very sensible, but knew not how..."We've all been there.
At least I've had many more Mary moments than Lizzy's wits .
I love the character descriptions. So Mr Bingley has inherited money but not land and is so indecisive it's unlikely he'll ever settle on anything. I'm picturing his sisters, Mr Hurst and Darcy's reactions:Early September, 1800
Bingley: Guys! I've just rented the sweetest country home in Oxfordshire for the winter! Wanna come with?
Mrs Hurst contemplates what she can afford on her income and responds, 'Sure!'
Mr Hurst considers the likelihood he'll be invited someplace with better hunting or more enthusiastic card-players and replies, 'Sure!'
Darcy ponders how probable it is that Bingley will fall in love, but not why this matters so much to him and says, 'Sure!'
Caroline hears Darcy and answers, 'Sure!'
Early October, 1800, Oxfordshire
Scene 1: Bingley is in the library having a marvelous chat with a local gentleman, who invites him to dine the following week. We pan outside the door where 15 other local grandees are queued up.
Scene 2: The local assembly organises a ball in honour of Mr Bingley. The wives and daughters of the men who visited yesterday are now lined up in front of him with dance cards and pencils at the ready.
Mr Hurst: in the other room playing cards and discussing hunting.
Mrs Hurst: sitting at the side of the room, away from the mob surrounding her brother as the few women with only sons try to engage her in a conversation about gardenias.
Mr Darcy: watches Bingley and still doesn't wonder why this is so important to him, looks at the crowd of eager women around him with slight contempt, which they notice, overhears numerous conversations about ploughing, and decides he's over the whole thing. For some reason doesn't decide to go back to Pemberley.
Caroline: hovers near Darcy and hints he should dance with her until he finally does, then tries her best to ignore the fact that he's only looking at her brother, snarks on everyone in the room in hopes of attracting his attention, fails.
Scene 3: back home after the ball
Bingley: Oxfordshire is amazing! Everybody's so friendly! The women are gorgeous! I've had so much fun!
Mr Hurst: is asleep on the sofa.
Mrs Hurst: Geez, I wonder why they like you so much? But by now I hate gardenias. Let's go back to London.
Bingley: Really? You guys don't like it here? Darcy, what do you think?
Darcy: They're right, this place is beneath you. Let's go back to London after hunting season.
Caroline: whatever keeps Darcy with us.
Early September, 1801
Bingley: Guys, I decided you're right. But I have a good feeling about Buckinghamshire, so I rented a cute little country home there for after Michaelmas.
Scene repeats until they end up in Hertfordshire.
Curtis Sittenfeld wrote an updated version of P&P called Eligible a few years ago which imagined Bingley as a reality TV dating show star and honestly, it tracks.
Jen wrote: "more enthusiastic card-players."There are a number of card games mentioned in this section, with more to come.
Chapter 6:
Elizabeth & Charlotte talk about marriage:
"Yes; these four evenings have enabled them to ascertain that they both like Vingt-un better than Commerce; but with respect to any other leading characteristic, I do not imagine that much has been unfolded."Chapter 8:
Vingt-un: poker-like
Commerce: gambling
At Netherfield Park,
On entering the drawing-room she [Elizabeth] found the whole party at loo, and was immediately invited to join them; but suspecting them to be playing high she declined it,Chapter 10:
loo: gambling
still at Netherfield
The loo-table, however, did not appear. Mr. Darcy was writing, and Miss Bingley, seated near him, was watching the progress of his letter and repeatedly calling off his attention by messages to his sister. Mr. Hurst and Mr. Bingley were at piquet, and Mrs. Hurst was observing their game.
piquet: two-person trick taking
At the end of chapter 10, we are told Elizabeth and Mrs. Hurst are walking together when they bump into Miss Bingley and Mr. Darcy. Immediately, Mrs. Hurst abandons Elizabeth to walk alone and grabs Mr. Darcy’s arm. Darcy recognizes the gesture as a slight against Elizabeth and suggests they go to an avenue wide enough to accommodate all four. Elizabeth rejects the idea with a laugh:“No, no; stay where you are.—You are charmingly group’d, and appear to uncommon advantage. The picturesque would be spoilt by admitting a fourth. Good bye.”
Does Elizabeth run off because she recognizes the presence of a male changes the dynamics and reduces women to rivals competing for the attention and good favor of the male? Is this her way of saying she wants no part in that game?
Tamara wrote: "At the end of chapter 10, we are told Elizabeth and Mrs. Hurst are walking together when they bump into Miss Bingley and Mr. Darcy. Immediately, Mrs. Hurst abandons Elizabeth to walk alone and grab..."I have an interesting footnote to this:
"the picturesque would be spoilt...a fourth: with connotations to the contemporary cult of picturesque in which asymmetry is preferred to symmetry (three is considered more attractive than four because it is irregular.)"
This must be a reference to what is now fashionable to the romantics in contrast to the neo-classics who favored symmetry.
Kerstin wrote: "I have an interesting footnote to this:"the picturesque would be spoilt...a fourth: with connotations to the contemporary cult of picturesque in which asymmetry is preferred..."
That is interesting. Thank you.
Ah, never underestimate Jane Austen! Even the card games are carefully placed within the narrative. I went and dug out a book I have on card games, A Dictionary of Card Games.
Vingt-un:
Full title :Vingt-et-un (= twenty one). In the US known as Blackjack, also called Pontoon. Banking game with 3 - 10 players and 52 cards. "...a French game popular at the court of Louis XV and, later much favored by Napoleon, especially at St. Helena. In the twentieth century it became the most popular game of the armed forces of English-speaking nations. Pontoon, unlike casino Blackjack, has no official rules and varies widely..."
Commerce:
Gambling games: 3 - 10 players, 52 cards
"Several similar games conveniently congregate here. Commerce itself is a nineteenth century French game, akin to Thirty-One and perhaps ancestral to Whisky Poker and Bastard Brag. Trade and Barter, sometimes also called Commerce, has the same combinations but a different way of acquiring them, and appears only in English books."
Loo:
Plain-trick game, 3 - 8 players, 52 cards, betting chips
"Loo, of which many varieties are recorded, belongs to a sprawling family whose more intelligent members include Nap, Euchre, Rams (Rounce) and Spoil Five. It dates from the seventeenth century, was much played by the idle rich in the eighteenth, and got itself a thoroughly bad name in the nineteenth..."
Piquet:
Plain-tricks and melds, 2 players, 32 cards
Object: to outscore your opponent over six deals
"Piquet or Picket, goes back to the early sixteenth century and has long been regarded as one of the all-time great games for two players. It also has been regarded as of French origin and the national card game of France, though the origin is debatable and the French now prefer Belote. The fact that the rules vary but slightly from country to country is remarkable, given the many centuries over which it has been played throughout Europe.
I'm savouring this and reading 2 chapters a day. Last night was chapters 5&6.Best scene in chapter 5: Mrs Bennet getting into an argument with one of Charlotte Lucas' little brothers about how much theoretical wine he would drink were he rich, which goes on until the visit ends. I'm either picturing the other Lucases getting embarrassed that an adult is arguing with an 8 year old and leaving 10 minutes later, or being so used to this kind of behaviour that they ignore it for a couple of hours.
And since I brought up Eligible and its re-imagining of Bingley as a reality dating show star, I was struck by how Charlotte's advice to Jane is almost exactly what Chris Harrison would say to the contestants at the beginning of every series. Try to imagine these lines coming out of his mouth:
In nine cases out of ten a woman had better show more affection than she feels
Jane should therefore make the most of every half-hour in which she can command his attention
And also similar to a reality dating show, just how little time these people spend getting to know each other:
She has known him only a fortnight. She danced four dances with him at Meryton; she saw him one morning at his own house, and has since dined in company with him four times. This is not quite enough to make her understand his character.
Yes; these four evenings have enabled them to ascertain that they both like Vingt-un better than Commerce; but with respect to any other leading characteristic, I do not imagine that much has been unfolded.
This is pretty much what you would get on The Bachelor: 6 weeks of filming, where you go on 4 group dates (dining in company) and a one-on-one (hanging out at his house). It even has the family that's sceptical of the lead's choice. The only difference is the really bitchy lines come from Bingley's sisters and Mrs Bennet, we hardly hear from Jane's rivals.
Jen wrote: "I'm savouring this and reading 2 chapters a day. Last night was chapters 5&6."It is like a fine wine, isn't it?
I went looking for something on urban vs. rural manners in late-eighteenth-century and early-nineteenth-century England, and found a FREE Kindle book which includes the topic, along with women's "accomplishments" as a point at issue (with a great deal more I would never have thought to look for). Some of us may want to sample it for context.See Women and Politeness in Eighteenth-Century England: Bodies, Identities, and Power, by Soile Ylivuori, at https://www.amazon.com/Women-Politene...
It includes the early 1800s (as part of the 'the Long Eighteenth Century), and Jane Austen is cited on a number of occasions. It is about 260 pages of main text and chapter notes (plus bibliography and illustrations), but the hyperlinked table of contents and digital indexing make it easy to navigate to particular subjects. (I have far too much going on for Goodreads right now to attempt to read it immediately.)
A quick check shows that the argument is made that, by the late eighteenth century, -- when P & P was being drafted as "First Impressions" -- town/country differences in England, especially for the upper classes, were narrower than in the rest of Europe, due largely to the pervasive influence of London. (The book does not deal with English vs Scots, Irish, Welsh, or Cornish, although I think that we can assume that the English-speaking elites in those environments were at least aware of upper-crust London practices.) The situation was different in the early and mid-century, when characters from the countryside could be mocked as coarse and boorish -- or, on the contrary, praised for the moral and physical purity of rural life against the corrupt and unhealthy city.
(The healthy part doesn't seem to be emphasized -- I may be wrong in my impression -- but it would have been true. When statistics become available in the nineteenth century, the infant of a country farm laborer, at the very bottom of the economic scale, had a better chance of surviving early childhood than if it had been born to well-off Londoners. This persisted, despite Victorian efforts at public health and improved infant care, until mechanized transportation replaced horses, with their accompanying manure, and flies, which existed in London in concentrations unknown in rural districts. On this, see The Rise of Respectable Society: A Social History of Victorian Britain, 1830-1900), by F.M.L. Thompson.)
Just caught up with all the commentary. Great as always. One of the comments about reading aloud made me think of Maryanne in Sense & Sensibility and how much she took stock in how a man read poetry or anything else. If it was with emotion or passion she equated that with the individual's passion for life and ability for strong emotions - loving ones of course; which were important to her in seeking a mate. Ah Maryanne - so idealistic and a hopeless romantic who later came to understand what real love looks like.
Jen wrote: "She has known him only a fortnight. She danced four dances with him at Meryton; she saw him one morning at his own house, and has since dined in company with him four times. This is not quite enough to make her understand his character.Yes; these four evenings have enabled them to ascertain that they both like Vingt-un better than Commerce; but with respect to any other leading characteristic, I do not imagine that much has been unfolded."
In the entire exchange between Elizabeth and Charlotte in chapter 6, which we've touched on before in the discussion, we get a beginning sense who these two women are. Elizabeth's point is that in order to marry well one has to find a man of good character, and you can't ascertain that from having just met him. Charlotte, in contrast, is by this point already on the way to spinsterhood. She has no time to waste should a suitor present himself.
"If a woman conceals her affection with the same skill from the object of it, she may lose the opportunity of fixing him; [...] When she [Jane] is secure of him, there will be leisure for falling in love as much as she chuses."Charlotte comes from the perspective of security. Snatch him first, and the rest will follow. There is a logic here, but I wonder if it is wise considering you will spend the rest of your life with this individual. What if you snatch the guy while he's on good behavior and you later find out his character is sorely lacking? Can this be a basis for happiness or are you then stuck in the proverbial golden cage?
I think Charlotte's point is that there are very limited opportunities for a man and woman to be alone together to really get to know one another:"But though Bingley and Jane meet tolerably often, it is never for many hours together; and as they always see each other in large mixed parties, it is impossible that every moment should be employed in conversing together."
And later:
". . . I should think she had as good a chance of happiness, as if she were to be studying his character twelve month. Happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance. If the dispositions of the parties are ever so well known to each other, or ever so similar before-hand, it does not advance their felicity in the least."
I think Charlotte's words make a lot of sense if we situate them in the social and cultural context of the time. There were very limited opportunities for a man and woman to be alone together, and they certainly couldn't live together before marriage to gauge their compatibility. So for that time and that place, happiness in marriage is a matter of luck. I would add it is also a lot of hard work and compromise.
Apparently the divorce rate in quite traditional arranged marriages, the ones where the bride and groom meet only a few times and always with a chaperone, is about the same as in love matches where the bride and groom date and live together before finally tying the knot.Last night I read chapters 7 & 8.
I continue to stan Lydia, when her father calls her and Kitty two of the silliest girls in the country and Lydia just goes on about how hot she thinks Captain Carter is and how she hopes she'll run into him in Meryton.
And then Lizzy doing her 3-mile parkour course over the fences and puddles to get to Jane. That must have been a sight to see, a woman in heavy petticoats running through the fields holding her dress up.
Re-reading chapter 8 this time, I was struck by how late they must have stayed up: dinner is at 6:30, they go to Jane's room until coffee is ready, they play cards, they have supper, and then they sing duets. I don't know that I had noticed the dinner vs supper distinction before.
Jen wrote: "Apparently the divorce rate in quite traditional arranged marriages, the ones where the bride and groom meet only a few times and always with a chaperone, is about the same as in love matches where..."Interesting, maybe it's because even nowadays most people don't truly know each other before marriage, or they're marrying despite huge incompatibilities. Even if there is 100% compatibility, we are subject to change and no marriage would work without compromise and, as Charlotte points, luck.
Reminds me of some apologetics regarding arranged and semi-arranged marriages. A contemporary Shi'a religious leader from Pakistan was writing "you don't have to marry the woman you love, you have to love the woman you marry".
He's of course just half-right but, but Charlotte and Mrs Bennett would probably agree.
Jen wrote: "Apparently the divorce rate in quite traditional arranged marriages, the ones where the bride and groom meet only a few times and always with a chaperone, is about the same as in love matches where..."I've read somewhere that the divorce rate in love matches is much higher than in traditional arranged marriages. I think it has to do with expectations about marriage. The theory behind arranged marriages is you grow to love the person you married, as Emil mentioned @77.
Years ago when I taught Women's Studies, the statistic was that 2 out of every 3 love marriages end in divorce. I don't know if that's still true today. Also, I would imagine traditional arranged marriages are not quite as common as they once used to be.
Borum wrote: "This reminded me of Alcott's Little Women with four daughters and their mother as main characters which took place in the time of the Civil War. Mrs. March didn't seem so preoccupied with her daughters' future as Mrs. Bennett but maybe it reflects how Alcott wasn't that concerned with marriage herself, or how American society was less economically stratified than Regency England in those days."I recently reread Little Women for the first time in decades, so it's very much on my mind as I read P&P. You are so right about Mrs. Alcott. Even when her (four) daughters meet up with some young men who, by Mrs. Bennett's standards, would be excellent matches for her girls, she cautions them against getting involved with people who are self-absorbed and disingenuous. She would rather her eldest marry the poor tutor to the rich boy next door than a wealthy man who won't appreciate her. There's an unobtrusive Christian undertone running through the entire novel which I hadn't really noticed before and which certainly explains Mrs. March's choices. We see nothing of the sort in P&P.
Ian wrote: "This would be an elegant solution to the family's problem, quite as much as marrying Elizabeth: although, of course, Jane Austen needed to avoid it, in order to keep the story going, and increase the stakes for the Bennet women..."And therein lies the point it's helpful to remember as we discuss the behavior of characters! They are constructs in a novel, and though they may behave very much like real people, ultimately they behave however the author needs them to behave in order to tell her story. :)
To which I will add that I find Mr. Bennett thoroughly delightful. The interplay between the two parents is obviously intended for comic relief. I agree with Lee that the novel is funnier than I remembered it, and a much breezier read as well. The chapters are short, and the situations are amusing. It's an early 19th-century romantic comedy, but Austen has a better ear for dialogue than any writer I've read in the same genre today (with the possible exception of Nora Ephron, who as far as I know, only made romantic comedies on film).
Kathy wrote: "There's an unobtrusive Christian undertone running through the entire novel which I hadn't really noticed before and which certainly explains Mrs. March's choices. We see nothing of the sort in P&P."It's early days yet ;-)
Regarding the Christian aspect, both Alcott and Austen still lived in a Christian society, and in both the Christian worldview permeates their works. In our secularized society we tend to forget or even dismiss this crucial aspect. Jane Austen grew up in Christian household, her father being a rector, and she was a Christian woman all her life. There is even a collection of her prayers. The Prayers of Jane Austen
Kathy wrote: "And therein lies the point it's helpful to remember as we discuss the behavior of characters! They are constructs in a novel, and though they may behave very much like real people, ultimately they behave however the author needs them to behave in order to tell her story...."I think that, besides their roles in the plot, Jane Austen expects (even invites?) the reader to pass moral judgments on the characters, and to weigh their behaviors against their responsibilities, as well as enjoy them.
Richard Whately, an appreciative early critic (and a bishop, no less) pointed out that Austen's work is grounded in Christian morality, but is all the more effective in teaching it for not calling it to the reader's attention.
But sometimes she is more subtle about it than others.
This is sometimes a problem for readers: in "Mansfield Park" there is one character everyone enjoys despising, and some others who are obviously no good to anyone, but there are a couple of characters who seem attractive, but turn out to be more than questionable morally. Some feel that it is a defect in the book. C.S. Lewis, who adored Austen, thought she was being less than realistic in her depiction of one of them, although I don't agree.
(I think that is opaque enough not to need spoiler markings for the sake of those who have yet to read it.)
Ian wrote: "Kathy wrote: "And therein lies the point it's helpful to remember as we discuss the behavior of characters! They are constructs in a novel, and though they may behave very much like real people, ul..."Haven't read Mansfield Park yet and I'm intrigued!
I read chapters 9 & 10 last night.What I was thinking about this time is arguments. There are of course various debates and disagreements throughout P&P, but here we have two examples where Darcy causes offence and is offended.
First Mr Darcy says, In a country neighbourhood you move in a very confined and unvarying society which offends Mrs Bennet. But Darcy, rather than trying to smooth over the situation, just turns away. She's being an idiot and she's beneath his notice. But this makes her even more incensed, and she spends the rest of the morning trying to bait him into a further response. He's already aware he's catching feelings for Elizabeth, so this would be his future mother in law. He'd have to deal with her sometimes, no matter how much he'd prefer not to. And he keeps sitting there silently the whole rest of the morning instead of trying to placate her. Good luck with that, buddy.
In chapter 10, Bingley insults Darcy in an effort to end a debate between him and Elizabeth. Darcy is again silent, and Elizabeth agrees to end the discussion. However, now he's with his best friend, and sometimes we all let the things our best friends say slide.
I find it interesting that his reaction to both offending and being offended is to just stay silent. In one case it doesn't work and Mrs Bennet keeps sniping at him. In the other case, it draws him even nearer to his object, he keeps watching Elizabeth even more closely and even tries to get her to dance. The next day he's even more enamoured of her fine eyes.
Jen wrote: "In chapter 10, Bingley insults Darcy in an effort to end a debate between him and Elizabeth. Darcy is again silent, and Elizabeth agrees to end the discussion. However, now he's with his best friend, and sometimes we all let the things our best friends say slide."It is quite the exchange!
At first I thought it was a good-natured tease among friends, but boy, did it escalate when Caroline and Elizabeth put in their two-cents-worth.
"That will not do for a compliment to Darcy, Caroline," cried her brother, "because he does not write with ease. He studies too much for words of four syllables. Do not you, Darcy?"
"My style of writing is very different from yours."
"Oh!" cried Miss Bingley, "Charles writes in the most careless way imaginable. He leaves out half his words, and blots the rest."
"My ideas flow so rapidly that I have not time to express them—by which means my letters sometimes convey no ideas at all to my correspondents."
"Your humility, Mr. Bingley," said Elizabeth, "must disarm reproof."
"Nothing is more deceitful," said Darcy, "than the appearance of humility. It is often only carelessness of opinion, and sometimes an indirect boast."
"And which of the two do you call my little recent piece of modesty?"
"The indirect boast; for you are really proud of your defects in writing, because you consider them as proceeding from a rapidity of thought and carelessness of execution, which, if not estimable, you think at least highly interesting. The power of doing anything with quickness is always prized much by the possessor, and often without any attention to the imperfection of the performance.
This tells us much about both Bingley and Darcy.
Bingley, we have seen, is the charming guy who is cordial to everyone, but he isn't too detail oriented, likes to do things quickly, and is not too concerned about his work being shoddy.
Darcy, on the other hand, very much cares how well a task is done, even in a letter to his sister, which by its nature is a very informal communication, requires he does his best. If he gives this kind of attention to his sister, then it isn't too far fetched to think he gives much attention to his other affairs, such as his estate, as well.
Darcy also warns that false humility is nothing but a hidden boast.
This is part of the contrast to the chaos of Longbourne as well. No way Darcy will neglect his kids' education, manners, or debuts into society like the Bennets.
Finished the first section last night, chapters 11&12. We've always looked up to the rich and tried to imitate their behaviour. But the way these rich people act is so unimaginable to us: Mr. Hurst had therefore nothing to do but to stretch himself on one of the sofas and go to sleep. Darcy took up a book; Miss Bingley did the same; and Mrs. Hurst, principally occupied in playing with her bracelets and rings, joined now and then in her brother's conversation with Miss Bennet.
Presumably there are still some rich people out there who just hang out at home and watch Netflix, but they certainly don't advertise that's what they're doing. Now you're supposed to work, work, work,. Even a game of golf is a networking event, not showing off that you're so rich you have 4 hours free in the middle of the day to whack a ball through the fields with a bunch of sticks. Which is better? Hanging out in your country home doing decorative needlework like Elizabeth, or hanging out in your country home with 14 MPs and their spouses for the whole weekend lobbying them about the importance of keeping fox hunting legal, then going back to your 60+ hour a week job in the City?
In chapter 12, They found Mary, as usual, deep in the study of thorough bass and human nature I looked up thorough bass, and it turns out that 17th and 18th century composers didn't always include the bass part in their compositions, it was left up to the musician to interpret them. A school of musical theorists grew up around these compositions, of which Mary clearly is one. So is she a pedant, so lost in academics she's of no practical value, or a deep observer of many subjects, but snubbed by her prettier but less-accomplished sister?
Unfortunately for Mary, the sentence ends: ",,, and human nature; and had some new extracts to admire, and some new observations of thread-bare morality to listen to."So she has a moral compass, unlike her younger sisters, but it is disconnected from lived experience, and she doesn't distinguish the obvious from the interesting or insightful.
Fiona Stafford's note to the old Oxford World's Classics edition includes the observation, which I don't recall seeing elsewhere,* that:
"There is also a pun on ‘base’, reflecting Mary’s great interest in the sins of mankind."
I'm not sure I want to go along with that, although mostly because I don't think that Mary is quite that deep, rather than that the pun would be uncharacteristic of Austen. (I think it would be more typical than often realized. But then, I think that Austen's tone toward some characters and situations is more cutting than a lot of readers expect.)
*e.g., it is not in the Norton Critical Edition (4th edition), which does have a more technical note on "basso continuo" in baroque music.
Ian wrote: "The situation was different in the early and mid-century, when characters from the countryside could be mocked as coarse and boorish -- or, on the contrary, praised for the moral and physical purity of rural life against the corrupt and unhealthy city.(The healthy part doesn't seem to be emphasized -- I may be wrong in my impression -- but it would have been true. When statistics become available in the nineteenth century, the infant of a country farm laborer, at the very bottom of the economic scale, had a better chance of surviving early childhood than if it had been born to well-off Londoners. "
Part of the answer of higher infant mortalities in the cities was higher rates of contaminated food thereby reducing good nutrition. With the rapid expansion of the cities due to the industrial revolution massive amounts of food had to be brought in over longer and longer distances. This posed problems in terms of freshness and sanitary conditions. In a traditional setting, and still true today, the closer you are to the producer of the food, the safer and more nutrient dense your food is.
Industrialized food production also began with no sanitary regulations in place, and the scandals accompanying those were (and are) horrendous. Slaughterhouses became much bigger as well with the accompanying deplorable conditions. It wasn't a pretty picture.
If you could make a living, staying in the country was definitely the healthier option.
Jen wrote: "Re-reading chapter 8 this time, I was struck by how late they must have stayed up: dinner is at 6:30, "I have a footnote on that, "Later dinner hours were adopted in fashionable circles."
Jen wrote: "In chapter 12, They found Mary, as usual, deep in the study of thorough bass and human nature I looked up thorough bass, and it turns out that 17th and 18th century composers didn't always include the bass part in their compositions, it was left up to the musician to interpret them. A school of musical theorists grew up around these compositions, of which Mary clearly is one. So is she a pedant, so lost in academics she's of no practical value, or a deep observer of many subjects, but snubbed by her prettier but less-accomplished sister?"Thank you for looking this up, Jen! Now I want to listen to a piece of music like this, lol.
Mary is one of the characters I'm watching. I haven't quite made up my mind about her yet.
Jen wrote: "Finished the first section last night, chapters 11&12. We've always looked up to the rich and tried to imitate their behaviour. But the way these rich people act is so unimaginable to us: Mr. Hur..."
There is a distinction between the English "Idle Rich" of Jane Austen and the rich businesspeople you're describing.
For the former being rich is a statu quo and a birthright while for the latter being rich is their purpose.
On a funny note, P.G. Wodehouse observed the difference between the English idle rich and their American industrious counterparts:
"As a rule, from what I've observed, the American captain of industry doesn't do anything out of business hours. When he has put the cat out and locked up the office for the night, he just relapses into a state of coma from which he emerges only to start being a captain of industry again."
P.G. Wodehouse, My Man Jeeves
Emil wrote: "Jen wrote: "Finished the first section last night, chapters 11&12. We've always looked up to the rich and tried to imitate their behaviour. But the way these rich people act is so unimaginable to u..."I was actually talking about the differences in lifestyle of the people we're supposed to look up to.
Darcy is the only old-money rich person at Netherfield and the only person with the truly inborn manners and effortless class. The Bingleys are nouveau riche, and hyper-aware of how they're supposed to behave. But in either case, readers were supposed to envy this tableau of people eating dinner after dark because they could afford the candles, then spending the evening playing cards and singing duets until 2 in the morning. Like, not for a weekend or a month on holiday, they do this every day of their lives.
I was contrasting this with the way the rich portray themselves now and the aspirational lifestyle we're all supposed to be emulating. Now rich people are always like, 'Oh, my kids need to know the value of the dollar, so I've raised them to understand that they will inherit enough money to be comfortable, but they'll have to work.' There's a podcast called Duchess which is an interview show about you guessed it, the landed gentry in the UK. These people are not walking idly around the gardens of their country homes waiting for rent to come due, they're hustling, trying to attract revenue to their estates so they can keep them in the family.
Jen wrote: "I was contrasting this with the way the rich portray themselves now and the aspirational lifestyle we're all supposed to be emulating. Now rich people are always like, 'Oh, my kids need to know the value of the dollar..."That's very interesting. I've read a lot about the landed gentry, but I have to confess, nothing newer than the interwar period. Maybe I'll take a look at that podcast, thanks for the tip.
Women’s WorkIn chapter 10 Elizabeth took up some needlework, and was sufficiently amused in attending to what passed between Darcy and his companion.
Conducting a word search, the word “needlework” only appears once in the novel, and other words such as “sewing” and “embroidery” not at all. For us today, very much removed from the world of Jane Austen, we may miss the importance needlework or “women’s work” had. Let’s look at it in more detail.
At the time of the novel all clothing and household textiles were hand-sewn. There were prototypes of sewing machines in existence, but their commercial success didn’t come until about half a century later in the 1860s when the first ready-to-wear pieces were sold. What this meant, is that all clothing items, from dresses to breeches, shirts, underwear, night-shirts, stockings, aprons, capes and coats, wardrobes for summer and winter for every family member had to be made. And this wasn’t all, you needed sheets, pillow cases, blankets, towels, washcloths, handkerchiefs, napkins, etc., in short, every imaginable item made of fabric had to be hand sewn. On top of it, you had to keep the items in good repair, and mending and altering was a never ending task. If a woman was skilled, she could alter or update her wardrobe to the latest fashion with little expense. Wherever women went, they took “their work” with them. Only the very rich could afford to have hired out this formidable task completely. The landed gentry, therefore, made much of their own clothing, even if they had some choice pieces, such as ball gowns, professionally made. I imagine they also had women nearby who took in sewing or mending for a little extra income. I don’t think the Bennet women made every single textile in their household themselves.
Mr. Bennet could also expect his household to provide him with a supply of the proverbial “red tape.” Red ribbon was used to tie or bundle important documents and papers, hence the expression, “to cut through red tape.” These were made on small table-top tape looms, a very important item in any household. In the days before rubber bands, etc. it was home-spun tape that provided the ties for all sorts of uses. All the open crocks in a food pantry, for instance, were covered with a piece of cloth and tied with a piece of tape too keep out pests. You could also make sturdy straps and belts on these looms as well as decorative ribbons.
That brings us back to Elizabeth, what kind of needlework would she have taken to Netherfield Park? It was the custom, that when in company or visiting somewhere, you worked on the showpieces, they had to be easily portable as well. The mundane stuff was done out of the public eye. She may have mongrammed handkerchiefs, embellished a ribbon or a pair of silk gloves, or perhaps embroidered a decorative pillow case. But she also spent much time in Jane’s room, out of the public eye. While tending to Jane, she may have sown the seams on the same handkerchiefs she later embellished in the drawing room.
Borum wrote: "This reminded me of Alcott's Little Women with four daughters and their mother as main characters which took place in the time of the Civil War. Mrs. March didn't seem so preoccupied with her daughters' future as Mrs. Bennett but maybe it reflects how Alcott wasn't that concerned with marriage herself..."Spot on. Louisa May Alcott's book is actually fairly progressive in that the daughters are all educated, and marriage is not in fact the only future envisioned for them. At one point Marmee says, "Better be happy old maids than unhappy wives, or unmaidenly girls, running about to find husbands."
Tamara wrote: "I have to say something about Mary because I really feel sorry for her. She is the middle child that gets lost in the shuffle. It doesn't look as if she has anything going for her. She is describ..."I remember on first reading P&P being convinced that Mary would end up marrying Mr Collins :)
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
The Prayers of Jane Austen (other topics)The Rise of Respectable Society: A Social History of Victorian Britain, 1830-1900 (other topics)
A Dictionary of Card Games (other topics)
Frederica (other topics)
The Lost Books of Jane Austen (other topics)
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She is the middle child that gets lost in the shuffle. It doesn't look as if she has anything going for her. She is described as “the only plain one in the family,” with “neither genius nor taste.” She reads a lot, but she hasn't had any guidance. She assumes a “pedantic air and conceited manner.” She is “always impatient for display,” which I take to mean she is anxious to get noticed. Her talk, which usually sounds pompous and bookish, is generally ignored. Her two older siblings have formed a bond; her two younger siblings have formed a bond. She is stuck in the middle, isolated and neglected. Her mother dismisses her; her father makes fun of her:
“What say you, Mary? For you are a young lady of deep reflection, I know, and read great books and make great extracts.”
Mary wished to say something very sensible, but knew not how.
“While Mary is adjusting her ideas,” he continued, “let us return to Mr. Bingley.”
Her situation is pretty sad.