The Way West Buddy Read (expanded to include The Big Sky; Fair Land, Fair Land and These Thousand Hills)

[Lori]

Terry, I am still seeing the spoilers links. The spoilers removed looks like just where a reply was made to a comment.

What are you seeing? no spoilers links at all?

[Terry]

I see the person’s posting, but it just says spoilers removed. I am on my iPad.

[Lori]

I have finally finished part 2 and agree that it was tough to read. I found myself skimming much of it. The end of this part with Lat (view spoiler)[I was pleasantly surprised to see Lat help the Indians who tried to kill them. I could see a small bit of Lije in him in helping save the chief's son. The description of the method was over the top and pretty gross. (hide spoiler)]

[Terry]

Actually, I see the initial comment, followed by [spoilers removed].

[Lori]

Ah, the iPad might be your issue. I'll check from mine and see what I see. Are you using the app?

[Lori]

I'm not sure, Terry. I'm seeing the spoiler links on my iPad but I'm not using the app.

[Terry]

Maybe I need to go to the website.

[Sue]

Hi Terry, I believe it says "spoilers removed" only when some one replies to your post where you had spoilers so you just have to go to the original post that was replied to. It should say "hide spoiler" when it is accessible.

It used to be that spoilers always showed up on your phone which is one of the reasons I avoid using the phone app.

[Sue]

I'm in part up to chapter 29 of part 5. I'm not really loving or hating this it's just an okay book for me. I'm not finding many passages that touch me or anything. (view spoiler)[ the part where Lat breaks up with Callie is very realistic but heartbreaking.

I hate the way Lat doesn't write home to his parents much, but I guess that's pretty realistic too. At work, the owners are on their last week month long vacation and I asked their 26 year old son how their vacation was going. He said he had no idea, that he only talked to his mom a couple times about work. I thought that was so strange, but then again, my son is the same age and he doesn't ask a lot of questions about us either. Girls are different.

Old Mr. McBee is so disgusting tracking Lat down and sponging off him and being creepy about Joyce. (hide spoiler)]

[Sara, New School Classics]

I have finished and find this to be just an okay book. It is disappointing, but mainly because it pales in comparison to the other three. I felt there was a bit of inconsistency in the characters, so that they often did things that seemed "out of character" to me. Guthrie's tremendous descriptive abilities were present, however, and by the end of Part Three I was not thinking about ditching the book, but in for seeing what would happen.

I think the story we were reading ended with Fair Land, Fair Land. This one seemed to me to be another story altogether and the inclusion of the narrow plot line concerning Brownie and Mercy did not really tie it to the earlier story significantly enough for me.

I gave it 3-stars, because for me it was exactly that--okay.

[Sue]

Sara wrote: "I have finished and find this to be just an okay book. It is disappointing, but mainly because it pales in comparison to the other three. I felt there was a bit of inconsistency in the characters, ..."

I liked it a little better than you, Sara. I agree that it was not the same caliber as the other three but I rated it higher than The Big Sky because I loved how this came together in the end and as everyone knows, I hated the ending for The Big Sky.

I was disappointed that Lijie didn't play a more prominent role and that Brownie didn't seem to reflect his upbringing but I still felt that this book was connected to the others in terms of progression. I think Guthrie meant to show how the erosion of the land also had ill effects on the family and friendships.

What I loved most was the struggle within Lat between his ambition and wanting to do the right thing.

[Sue]

Lori wrote: "I have finally finished part 2 and agree that it was tough to read. I found myself skimming much of it. The end of this part with Lat [spoilers removed]"

I agree Lori, that was great. Lat has some other great moments too.

[Sara, New School Classics]

I'm glad you found it more satisfying, Sue. I can imagine I would have been kinder to it if I had not had the others to compare it to. I liked The Big Sky much more than you did, so we came out about even on the series, I think.

[Lori]

Sue wrote: "End of part 3 spoilers [spoilers removed]"

I was also surprised by the end of part 3 Sue and Sara. I'm finished up through part 4 so I'll post my reaction to both parts in the spoiler.

(view spoiler)[It was sad that Lat reacted to Tom in that way. Apparently Lat had no intentions of marrying Callie although she waits for him and would gladly go anywhere with him. Tom never thought it possible for Lat to want someone different. But Lat's upbringing is constantly coming back and reminding him of right and wrong according to what his parents taught him. It would be interesting to know what his mother would say, Sara. What an interesting conversation that would be. But we got a flashback to getting the cattle in Oregon where he brought Whitey with him.

Poor Tom - to have been best friends and now nothing. That's hard.

At the end of part 4 I was sad for Callie. She has given Lat all she has including her $1,000 so he probably owes her something for his success. She definitely loves Lat and Lat has probably never told her he loves her but the fact that he keeps coming back and he behaves as a gentleman to her, she wishes and waits. She had every right to get mad and angry when Lat tried to let her down easy but then she seemed to take it as if she should have seen it coming all along. She is not unstarched for him and Joyce seems to be everything he wants in a woman that can help with his future ambitions. (hide spoiler)]

After part 4, I'm more interested in where the story is going even though I think Guthrie took some interesting turns to get here.

I can't help but wonder why Guthrie never wrote the story of the Evans' family once they reached Oregon? It seems like another gap he could have filled.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

I think I may be the lone voice in favor of These Thousand Hills?

I have just finished Part Two, and I am really enjoying it, even if at times the narrative appears quite choppy and hard to follow. As in the other three books we have read together, Guthrie here too lets the reader know at what cost “the west was won.” (view spoiler)[ As most of you have mentioned, the wholesale killing of buffalo and wolves is hard to read about. How the wolves were poisoned with strychnine was new to me and revolting to think about. Guthrie has made me understand why we have to have state Wildlife and Fisheries Departments to protect the slaughter of entire species of animals.

These Thousand Hills also shows how the Indian Wars took the life out of the Native American population. The tribe that captured Lat and Tom, to me, were vastly different in spirit than the tribes Guthrie introduced in his previous books. I thought the wise chief, Rising Moon, was merely trying to keep his people together without further bloodshed. I was so thankful when Lat used his skills to heal the chief’s son and forged a friendship between them.

I like the characters of Lat and Tom. Although Lat is ambitious, he is not ruthless. And I think he will have a very positive effect on Tom. (hide spoiler)]

I’m looking forward to the rest of the story.

[Terry]

Shirley, I am reserving judgment still. I am about 65% through it, so I am hopeful it may pick up for me. We’ll see.

[Sara, New School Classics]

Lori - (view spoiler)[I also felt sorry for Callie. Of course she wants a better life, and she was pushed into the life she has by circumstances that could describe Mercy to a tee. The difference in the outcome is the men involved and the family. Callie, sadly, has an aunt in the business, who is more than glad to earn some money off of her degradation. And, I think it is interesting that it is Brownie, who stepped up and accepted Mercy, who has poisoned Lat against accepting Callie. On the other hand, Callie is already a prostitute and Mercy was never put in the position of having to do anything that terrible just to survive.

It is true that it is Callie's money that saves Lat and also true that the least of what she gives him is money. He may well have died had she not cared for him after the incident with the Indians. In fact he owes Callie and Tom for his life and I don't think he pays either of them back in kind. (hide spoiler)]

Shirley - (view spoiler)[I completely agree that the difference in the Indians is shocking. They are truly just trying to survive and they are cowed. I was glad Lat could not just let the son die and used the skills he had to heal him.

I do not think of Lat as ruthless, but I do think he lets his ambition blind him to the things others do for him and he is willing to turn his back on love, in several forms, simply because it would not fit in with his desire to achieve the material success he wants. (hide spoiler)]

[Lori]

I have finished and while it's not on my favorites list, I didn't hate reading it. There were parts that were squeamish and decisions and circumstances to question, but in the end, I found this to be a good story about a young boy's ambitions and his progression through his life to prospering in a place he can call his own. Lat wasn't the most likable but I think that's because Guthrie had already created his most loved character already in Dick Summers. To me, he was the end all be all for this set of novels. I think Lat was a believable character in terms of human nature as we all make mistakes and have desires and ambitions in life.

It's interesting that this was considered the third in the trilogy until Fair Land, Fair Land.

[Sara, New School Classics]

I suppose it is part of the series because you really need to know about Brownie and Mercy to make the end have any true meaning, but, while Fair Land seemed to be a direct continuation of the story, this seemed to be divorced from it enough that it was a stand-alone.

I watched The Way West movie that was shown on TMC. It was a joke, really. There was very little that resembled the wonderful book, the plot lines were there but twisted terribly, and no way in the world was that MY Dick Summers. I find this is so often the case with movies, especially those made decades ago, when the art of movie making just wasn't up to the task. I couldn't help comparing it to the film version of Lonesome Dove.

[Brian E]

The Way West movie only gets a 6.2 on IMDb and is considered to be a failure.
The 1952 film of The Big Sky by Howard Hawkes gets a 7.0 rating and should be better. Kirk Douglas is in that movie too, as Jim Deakins. It might be on TCM someday but it is also available to rent on Amazon Prime for $2.
The 1959 film of These Thousand Hills with Don Murray as Lat Evans gets a 6.4 rating.

[Terry]

I watched the movie, too, and agree with Sara. Not very good.

[Lori]

Well I’m glad I forgot to set up my dvr to record it.

[Sue]

Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "I think I may be the lone voice in favor of These Thousand Hills?

I have just finished Part Two, and I am really enjoying it, even if at times the narrative appears quite choppy and ..."

Shirley, I agree with everything you said. I believe this book his more about the cost than the characters.

[Sue]

Lori wrote: "Sue wrote: "End of part 3 spoilers [spoilers removed]"

I was also surprised by the end of part 3 Sue and Sara. I'm finished up through part 4 so I'll post my reaction to both parts in the spoiler...."

I agree with all that you said too, Lori, especially that Gutherie should have wrote another book to fill the gap on the Evan's family. I loved that family. I also don't thing he made Brownie's progression believable. He had such a good foundation and it didn't seem realistic that he became a firebrand religious person. I could see how is failures caused a bad temper, but not the change in the mild religious way he was raised.

[Sue]

Sara wrote: "I suppose it is part of the series because you really need to know about Brownie and Mercy to make the end have any true meaning, but, while Fair Land seemed to be a direct continuation of the stor..."

I agree about the film, Sara. I watched it shortly after watching finishing The Way West. It was so bad I couldn't even finish it.

[Sue]

Brian wrote: "The Way West movie only gets a 6.2 on IMDb and is considered to be a failure.
The 1952 film of The Big Sky by Howard Hawkes gets a 7.0 rating and should be better. Kirk Douglas is in that movie to..."

Even though I couldn't finish The Way West, I may give those other two a try, Brian.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

I just finished Part Three, and I think I may have to revise my earlier opinion of Lat: (view spoiler)["that he is ambitious, but not ruthless." I am not looking forward to what appears to be coming in Part Four: Lat dumping Callie ignominiously because, as he told Tom who wanted to marry Jen, "... she's a whore. Wife or not, always she'll be known as that." And that makes me so sad, first of all because Callie is a sweet, giving person who is devoted to Lat, but also because Lat owes his reversal of fortunate to her. If he does what I think he's going to do, then he'll be no better than Boone Caudill was. (hide spoiler)]

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Sue wrote: "Shirley, I agree with everything you said. I believe this book his more about the cost than the characters."

Yes, that's what I think too, Sue! I find that, in every one of his books, Guthrie was really telling his readers that the West may have lost more than it gained when trappers and hunters and pioneers and prospectors, etc... came to exploit its natural resources. Guthrie's love of this once wild and open country is what makes these books so special to me.

[Sara, New School Classics]

🤔 I thought you might see him a little differently when you got to this point, Shirley. I'll be interested in how you feel when the story is completely done.

I do totally agree that Guthrie is telling us the story of how the West was lost, not won.

[Terry]

I am getting towards the end. You can always tell when I am not enjoying a book that much by how long it takes me to read it. I’ve been also listening to Mr. Penumbra’s 24 Hour Bookstore, and favoring that over These Thousand Hills. You can read my review of it to see why. But the point is this —These Thousand Hills have been a long climb for me.

[Sara, New School Classics]

I have the same problem, Terry. Glad Mr. Penumbra was entertaining!

[Terry]

I have finally finished. This has been a 3 star read for me, an okay book, but not up to the standards set by the first three. There were moments I enjoyed These Thousand Hills, but not enough, and it’s a bit of a let down to finish this way.

In the end, I just didn’t like the characters very much. I think I would have been happier if Lat married Callie and said to hell with the rest.

It’s been fun, though, ladies and gents! There are two other books in the series, but I don’t have the motivation to continue. At least for now, for me, the long journey through these books ends. Happy trails to you!

[Sara, New School Classics]

Same for me, Terry. I really don't have time in my schedule for the others right now, and this one has convinced me that the ride is over. It was a grand trip, though, and I am grateful to everyone who made the journey!

[Sue]

I didn't plan on going further than this one because I couldn't get cheap copies.

I'm glad we all did this too. I loved the discussions! They made all of the books more enjoyable.

[Lori]

I couldn’t agree more! This has been such a wonderful read and you guys made it so much more enlightening! I hope we might find another set to read in the future!

[Sara, New School Classics]

Don't forget we have Enemy Women coming up in September! Hope to see you all there.

[Terry]

Thanks, Sara. I am in for that one, but forgot which month!

[Sue]

Sara wrote: "Don't forget we have Enemy Women coming up in September! Hope to see you all there."


I am looking forward to Enemy Women!

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Part 4, Chapter 23:

I have a few sad thoughts on what I have just read:

(view spoiler)[The situation where one of Callie's customers, Whey Belly Hector, tells her I've paid for an interest in you (which makes me think he is financing her business) and proceeds to beat her when she denies him her favors really made me understand how hard it would be for a man like Lat to marry someone who - to put it bluntly - has been with so many men. If the roles were reversed, I think a woman would have the same problem marrying someone who made his living by being a paid male escort. So although Lat is no better than Callie's other customers, I don't fault him for not wanting to marry her. But on the other hand, I just feel so sorry for Callie because she didn't make the choice for her life, and now there is no way out of it.

The other thing this incident made me think of is Lat's own mother, Mercy McBee Evans, who was also a compromised woman and would have had Lat out of wedlock had Brownie not stepped in and married her. What would have become of Mercy then? Would she have had to do what Callie did? What would Lat think if he knew the full circumstances of his birth? So much to think about! (hide spoiler)]

[Lori]

That struck me very hard as well Shirley. I was completely saddened for Callie and you’re right she had no choice. Mercy would have an interesting perspective definitely. I think though, that Lat was her 3rd child, the first two having died. Maybe I misread that?

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Oh! I missed that part about Lat being the third child, Lori! I’ll have to go back and read that!

[Sara, New School Classics]

Yes, Lat was the third child, so Mercy's illegitimate child did not survive. She was fortunate, but Callie was not. Still, when Lat met her she had not been a working girl for very long, she was being picky and not sleeping with just anyone because her aunt complained of it. She might still have had a good life..by the end she is used up by all the men she has serviced. It is very sad, indeed.

I do not think it would be easy at all to ignore the fact that your wife had sold herself, but I couldn't help thinking of Gus telling Clara that Lori was "doing what she had to to survive and he hoped she wouldn't hold it against her." but then that was another book!

[Terry]

It’s interesting to hold up Lonesome Dove as a frame for these books. The first three books somewhat surround LD. Dick Summers would fit into their story, but I don’t think Lat does. Gus was a much bigger, better man than Lat.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

I finished reading These Thousand Hills, and I must say that I thoroughly enjoyed it. My review for it is here.

(view spoiler)[I know I'm in the minority, but I really did like Lat and felt such sadness for him at the end. It's true I was disappointed in how he treated his friend Tom Ping and Callie, but when I thought more about it, my feelings towards him changed.

How many young people sow their wild oats when they're young, doing things they will be ashamed of later in life, and then proceed to drop those friends as they grow out of that wild phase? To me, this was how I saw Lat's evolution from cowhand to businessman. He just knew that he had to make a change in his lifestyle. Yes, absolutely, he could have handled it better, but I think Guthrie made a point to show that Lat was not exactly a refined character.

But in the end, how Lat handled the business with Callie showed me that his integrity and desire to do the right thing never really changed. When he was confronted with a situation that would ruin his career, he was willing to sacrifice everything to do the right thing. To me, he grew ten feet tall by the end of the book. I loved it when Tom Ping, who essentially destroyed Lat's political aspirations and obviously suffered such remorse for doing so, cried out, "... he's a better man than all of you." (hide spoiler)]. And yes, I did love this book as well as the others!

[Sue]

Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "I finished reading These Thousand Hills, and I must say that I thoroughly enjoyed it. My review for it is here.

I know I'm in the minority, but I really did like Lat and felt such sa..."

I agree with everything you said Shirley and liked it, but just not as much as The Way West or Fair, Fair Land. I can definitely see how someone would like it as well as the others though. I liked this one better than The Big Sky because of their endings

[Sara, New School Classics]

Glad you liked it so much, Shirley and Sue. He is a powerful writer. I'm glad to have discovered him.

[Sue]

Sara wrote: "Glad you liked it so much, Shirley and Sue. He is a powerful writer. I'm glad to have discovered him."

Thank goodness for our Pulitzer challenge. I don't think I'd have read his books without that. Which reminds me. There is another similar series by Conrad Richter called the "Awakening Land series" that includes the The Trees ,The Fields and The Town. The last one one a Pulitzer. Is anyone interested in a buddy read of that series next summer?

[Terry]

Sue, thanks for the terrific suggestion!

I definitely would be up for the Richter trilogy. Chances are, though, that I will have forgotten all about it before next year, let alone next summer! So someone else probably needs to stay on top of it, because I am hopelessly unreliable about keeping track of distant things!

As you all know by now, my various family roots go back a long way in the US. It was my mother’s branch that got to Eastern Washington, north of Spokane, that then went to Oregon and then down to Sacramento, CA. Another adoptive branch went through Massachusetts to Ontario to Kalispell, Montana (and then down to California. However, one branch of my adoptive father’s family (surname Temple) that started in Boston about 1628 eventually got to Clermont County, Ohio, so those books should be great background for them. From there they went to Central Illinois, then Oklahoma, Wichita, KS and through Arizona to Los Angeles.

Since I am the family genealogist, these books about the settling of various places in the US are therefore of great interest for me.

[Sue]

Terry wrote: "Sue, thanks for the terrific suggestion!

I definitely would be up for the Richter trilogy. Chances are, though, that I will have forgotten all about it before next year, let alone next summer! So ..."

That is so cool Terry! If you and/or others want to do it sooner, I could do Nov, Dec, & Jan starting this year too or other times in 2022. If we decide on next year, I'll keep track. I made a Goodreads list for every month of the year and I tag books that I plan to read in that month.

[Lori]

Sue, these all sound fantastic! Thanks for bringing them to our attention. I’d definitely want to read them and will start looking for them. It also seems as if I need to create my own Pulitzer challenge. I’ve read 7 this year alone.