The Way West Buddy Read (expanded to include The Big Sky; Fair Land, Fair Land and These Thousand Hills)

[Sara, Old School Classics]

August would work for me or anytime after. You guys pick a date.

[Terry]

I might join, and August is probably okay, but would like a time spread between Enemy Woman and These Thousand Hills.

[Sue]

Terry wrote: "I might join, and August is probably okay, but would like a time spread between Enemy Woman and These Thousand Hills."

I agree, since we are doing These Thousand Hills in August, I'd prefer September or later for Enemy Women,

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Would the first of September work for everyone? Like Terry, I would prefer a break between These Thousand Hills and Enemy Women in order to catch up on some other reading I've put aside for this wonderful journey into Guthrie's world. But I will definitely read along with whatever time is decided upon.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Sue wrote: "Terry wrote: "I might join, and August is probably okay, but would like a time spread between Enemy Woman and These Thousand Hills."

I agree, since we are doing These Thousand Hills in August, I'd..."

I should have hit the Refresh button. I didn't realize you posted the same thing, Sue. Great minds think alike, I have seen, in this journey together. ☺️

[Lori]

Anytime for me. September sounds good!

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Let's say mid-September. I will post it on the buddy read thread as starting September 15th. It isn't a series book, so at least we know it won't spread itself from one read to four. :D

[Lori]

I've just finished up through chapter 26 of FLFL which is the end of part 2. WOW! I've read through Sara and Sue's spoilers and gleaning so much rich discussion with these characters. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said so far!

(view spoiler)[It made complete sense for this to begin as soon as TWW ended. I remember Curtis Mack had left the wagons to help with the cattle and it was nice to see Dick's interaction there.

This view of Dick in his element in the mountains is exactly what I wanted more of in TBS. I am so glad to have his story converge with Teal Eye's and as you have said we now see her as a woman who is loved and meaningful so her story is important to hear. I do love her independence and love for Dick. I absolutely loved that Dick wanted to marry her properly and to give Nocansee his name is so poignant.

As far as his obsession with Boone, I'm ok with that because as you said, Dick wanted to make things straight. He also believes all the signs pointing him to being appointed to be the one to set things right. I don't think he would have been able to live as well with himself if he'd killed Boone. It would have been too similar to Jim's killing - for no reason - and it might have eaten at him for the rest of his life. So Higgins being there was meant to be. I never believed Boone would admit to being wrong about the boy being his. He's too animalistic and driven by instinct and he acted out in just that way. Oh, I am so loving this and want to talk more. I'll be back! (hide spoiler)]

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I was also delighted that Guthrie picked this book up at the exact moment he had left TWW, Lori. So glad you are enjoying it, but not surprised. I'll be very interested in knowing what you think when you have completely finished.

[Sue]

I'm so glad you are loving it Lori. It's hard to believe that Guthrie came back to this so much later because it seems seamless and would have left such a gap without it.

[Lori]

Guys, I am still thinking about that ending of FLFL.

(view spoiler)[Because Guthrie's fiction was history based, he wrote about an actual event that massacred the Blackfeet. I found this article about the event.
https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com...

How awful that smallpox ridden tribes of mostly women and children who were starving were killed. It's remarkable how Guthrie recreated that horrific occurrence as Dick's finale. I love how he wove the real people into the story as well - Mountain Chief's Piegan band who killed a pioneer Malcom Clarke. It was quite a powerful ending to an already powerful message and theme of how these pioneers came and spoiled the Indian's land and killed them with poison whiskey and brought smallpox. (hide spoiler)]

[Terry]

Lori, I know, but how else could he have ended the novel? He wrote this in the 80s. By then, the myths of the west had been blown. And this was an actual thing that happened. He just put Summers there.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

The historical accuracy adds a lot to these novels. It could not have been a sadder ending, however.

[Lori]

Putting Summers into this event was what made it so authentic. Sad but brilliant.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Spoiler Alert: This entire message contains spoilers. Please do not read it if you have not finished the book.

I again loved this (the third) book in The Big Sky series, but I must confess that I was disappointed at times.

The Good: I loved knowing what happened to Dick Summers after the close of The Way West. I loved that he did not live out his days alone, but found happiness with his friend Higgins, his wife Teal Eye, and their children. I loved reading again of the beauty of the West. I felt sad along with Summers at the disappearing of the land as he had known it. As Terry and Lori pointed out, I loved how Guthrie, the excellent historian that he was, incorporated this story with the real life tragedy that was the Marias Massacre. It made the ending of Fair Land, Fair Land that much more heartbreaking for me. I was so sad that they met such a terrible fate. Nocansee was such a sweet man. I hated this ending for him and Summers. I was just thankful that Higgins and Little Wing were not present, and hopefully they, along with Lije Summers, will appear again in These Thousand Hills.

The (slightly) Disappointing: I think because so many years had passed between the writing of The Way West and Fair Land, Fair Land - and Guthrie had written Hollywood screenplays in the intervening years - to me, this book lacked the depth of the first two books in the series. At times, events felt abbreviated and not fully developed… such as Summers’ interaction with Boone Caudill when they finally met. The whole interaction was covered in less than two pages (even though much had been written about what Summers would do when he finally found Caudill). And I thought it was strange that Guthrie wrote how Summers pieced together from various sources what Caudill had done to his friend Jim Deakins, although I’m pretty sure that Caudill came to see Summers in Missouri (at the end of The Big Sky) and told him what he had done. I noticed several times throughout the book that Summers’ “voice” was not quite the same as it had been in the earlier two books. Again, I attribute that to the time lapse between The Way West and Fair Land, Fair Land.

But overall, I loved this story. As with his other two books, Guthrie has the ability to transport the reader back to that time and place. I just find him an amazing writer and scholar, and I can't wait to start reading These Thousand Hills.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Terry wrote: "It just occurred to me that maybe Guthrie’s title may mean “fair land” in the sense of “fair game” — in other words, there for the taking. What do you think?"

I thought the same thing, Terry. That in the first instance, Fair Land was a description of the beauty of the land, and in the second instance, Fair Land meant that the land was there for the taking (by settlers, etc.). I thought that was such a bittersweet, clever title on Guthrie's part.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Sara wrote: "Let's say mid-September. I will post it on the buddy read thread as starting September 15th. It isn't a series book, so at least we know it won't spread itself from one read to four. :D"

Hi, Sara~. I was just checking the Buddy Read schedule for the two books we discussed earlier: These Thousand Hills (starting in August) and Enemy Women (starting September 15). I saw the first book on the schedule, but not the second one. Are we still a go with Enemy Women? I'm looking forward to continuing these Buddy Reads. The discussions have been awesome! Thank you!

[Lori]

Shirley, you definitely may great points in what you found disappointing. I had wondered also about the visit Boone made to Dick and thought that Dick already knew about that story. So, maybe there is a bit of a miss there. I also agree with you that Dick and Boone's final meeting seemed abrupt. But thinking about how Boone was so much more a savage and animalistic, he didn't seem the type to sit around and reminisce. He didn't really care about Teal Eye anymore, if he ever did. So maybe the build up and talking about what Dick would do was leading us up to thinking something else was going to happen. I am actually glad Dick didn't kill Boone because that would make him just like Boone.

Thinking about Dick's voice, could it be attributed to his age and that he's older now and had more life experience?

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Loved reading your thoughts on Fair Land, Fair Land, Shirley. I also remember being taken aback that the Boone episode took place so quickly, but then I decided this story wasn't about Boone but Summers needed to finish his chapter with Boone and so did we. When Boone visited Dick at the end of Big Sky, I don't think he gave him any details about killing Jim, just stated in parting that he had done so. The details mostly came from Teal Eye, who was in the best position to know exactly what had happened. I hope I am remembering that correctly.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Thank you for your comments to my observations, Lori and Sara!

As to our discussion about Summers and Caudill, I agree with both of you that Summers really just wanted to get this confrontation out of the way - although he wasn't intending for it to end the way it did. But I'm not surprised that Caudill would attack Summers. He definitely stayed true to character. And yes, Lori, I am so thankful that Higgins killed him, and not Summers. With Higgins, there was no bad feeling involved in what he did, so he would have no remorse as he was just protecting his best friend. It was indeed a proper ending.

Sara, thank you for answering the question as to how much Caudill told Summers about Jim Deakins' death (at the end of The Big Sky). As I have been borrowing these books from my local library, I couldn't go back and see the parts I was confused about. I really need to add these books to my IRL bookshelves. I know I would read them again.

And Lori, about Summers' "voice". That is a little more complicated for me to explain. It could definitely be that he changed as he grew older (we all do, of course). I found him more talkative and less introspective than he was in the first two books. I found that Summers brooded a lot about the past in the first two books (I'm not saying this negatively; it's just that Summers was not comfortable in the new world he found himself in), but not so much in Fair Land, Fair Land. Maybe his relationships with Higgins and Teal Eye finally gave him happiness in the present.

One other thing I thought about this morning is the irony of how Summers had survived 40-50 years of living in the Wild West with sometimes hostile Native Americans, only to be killed in such a savage manner by his fellow European Americans.

I'm hoping Teal Eye, Lije Summers, Higgins and Little Wing will appear again in These Thousand Hills.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I felt that same sense of irony, Shirley, in Dick being killed by his own people, and so heartlessly, when the Indians were meant to be the "savages".

I love your observation that Dick's dwelling on the past ceased. I attributed that to his being back in his element and not having to long for the places he had left behind anymore, but I think you have hit on a major truth in his happiness with the present and contentment with the life he is living with Teal Eye.

[Sue]

Hi everyone. I've been preoccupied with some stuff and haven't been on Goodreads much. Are we still on for These Thousand Hills in August? I plan to start on it mid month.

[Terry]

Sue, I am definitely in for this one. Not sure about just when in August I will get to it, but probably towards the beginning of the month.

[Lori]

I’ve definitely got it on my list too. I’m not sure when though.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Me, too! I just got my long-awaited used copy Saturday, so I’ll be ready to start August 1. I’ll be finishing two of my current reads by then (that’s the plan, anyway). 😉. Like you, Sue, I haven’t been on GR much this summer, as I have been involved in other projects, but I’m looking forward to jumping back in with the ever-enjoyable Guthrie Gang!

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I'm also still in for this one, but it might be mid-month for me as well. I've been in a bit of a reading slump, when I do pick up a book it always seems to be the wrong one. I am hoping Guthrie will help me break that cycle.

[Sue]

I'm so glad everyone is still in! I've been a reading slump in terms of volume and I haven't been doing any reviews. I've been loving everything I've read and I'm so frustrated that I haven't been able to review anything. My computer kept crashing which was part of the problem. I got a new computer so now I just need to get motivated. This group and this book are the perfect combination to get me going.

[Brian E]

Every so often I check the listings on U.S. TV station Turner Classic Movies (TCM) to see if there are any upcoming movies of interest.
They will be showing the 1967 movie of The Way West on Saturday August 7th at 12:45 a.m. Central Time.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Thanks, Brian. I will try to catch it.

[Lori]

Oh thank you Brian! I do the same thing and will slot it to record.
I just got Gone With the Wind recorded recently on TCm. You do have to check often for what they’re showing.

[Terry]

Brian, thanks!

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Yes, thank you, Brian!

[Terry]

I have started to read These Thousand Hills. So far, maybe 20% into the book, I have several first impressions. One, the writing is still good. During the breaking in of a horse, notice how the sentences are short and choppy, for example — very effective and evocative style. Secondly, sometimes I have a bit of a problem following who says what, when there are many people talking. That could just be me not paying close enough attention, but I wonder if others have this issue. Lastly, this book seems a bit more cowboy-ish to me so far, in a far more standard, already written about way. I am hoping it gets more personal.

[Sue]

I'm ready to start in a couple days Terry. I hope it gets better!

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I have also started, Terry and am at Part Two. I agree entirely with your assessment. Unless there is some significant change, this is going to be very much like the genre it is assigned to. Guthrie is a good writer, but he may have left his best characters behind him now.

I was also a tad disappointed that this did not pick up with the Evans family where we left them. It is really not tied in any true sense to the earlier novels. Lat is a new character and this is a new story, too many generations out to feel any connection.

(view spoiler)[We are told in a total gloss over that the first two of the children died, which means the child she was carrying when they married did not survive. That was a plot line that I rather expected would be continued. (hide spoiler)]

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Part Two: Chapter 10. (view spoiler)[The reckless killing of all these animals is a bit more than my stomach can stand. I hated the story about the wolf who was poisoned and skinned standing up still alive. It is a fact that this kind of ruthlessness went on, but I find it very hard to read. (hide spoiler)]

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

I'm also at the end of Part One, and it's finally picking up for me. I am really enjoying the budding friendship between Lat and Tom. It reminds me of the friendship between Boone Caudill and Jim Deakins, only thankfully both Lat and Tom are likable characters.

The book started slow for me, too, Terry and Sara... but then, I thought the same thing of the other three books. I just think Guthrie has to get revved up, but once he does, his narratives are so compelling.

I am disappointed, too, Sara, that the year is 1880, and there will be no follow-up stories on Lije, Mercy and Brownie Evans after they settle in Oregon (from The Way West) or follow-up stories on Higgins, Teal Eye and Lije Summers (from Fair Land, Fair Land). So as you stated, Sara, this seems more like a stand-alone book from the previous ones (although Guthrie gives cameo appearances to Lije Sr. and Brownie in the beginning).

[Sara, Old School Classics]

The beginning of Part Two was a little tough for me, but I'm pressing on, Shirley. I felt as if the minor glimpse of Lije, Mercy and Brownie was more to set Lat in the family tree for us, but maybe there will be something unexpected as the book progresses.

[Lori]

Looking to start this tomorrow. Sorry to read your this is slow to start. I’ll be back when I get further into the book.

[Lori]

Well, what can I say that you guys haven't already pointed out? I have finished part 1 and feel all the same as you guys. Too western/cowboyish so far and not connecting with any character so far, even Lat. I also hope that the story will pick up and give us a unique story to fall in love with. I can't stop thinking about Lonesome Dove and how incredible it was. This isn't in that realm for me yet. The only surprising bit in part 1 for me was the baby calf.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

This is definitely not going to be a Lonesome Dove, Lori. I'm afraid it isn't even going to get close to The Way West. I'm going to try to get back to reading it this weekend but I have yet to connect to anyone and, were this not a buddy read, 100 pages of no connection would mean dnf.

[Terry]

I am also about 100 pages in and feeling the same as Sara. I am hoping it gets better fast.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Just made page 102, end of Chapter 14, and for the first time Tom and Lat seem to have personalities for me. I'm very hopeful that this is going to pick up from here.

[Sue]

Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "I'm also at the end of Part One, and it's finally picking up for me. I am really enjoying the budding friendship between Lat and Tom. It reminds me of the friendship between Boone Caudill and Jim D..."

I feel the similar to you Shirley. It was a slow start, but started to pick up around the 2nd part. I'm now up to part 4. I'm enjoying it, but not as much as The Way West or Fair, Fair Land. I thought those two and The Big Sky all had better starts and more compelling characters.

I was disappointed that Brownie didn't live up to what you'd think he'd become with the great foundation he had. He is like a mild version of Boone. Neither he or Tom have large personalities which makes it harder get to know them.

I like Lat and Tom and their friendship, but they are no Summers/Deakins, Summers/Lijie, or Summers/Higgins

I think, this may be more subdued because the time period is calmer as the area is becoming more civilized.

[Sue]

Sara wrote: "Just made page 102, end of Chapter 14, and for the first time Tom and Lat seem to have personalities for me. I'm very hopeful that this is going to pick up from here."

I'm at part 4 which is page 197 in my copy and it keeps getting better and better. So far it's about a 3.5 star book for me.

[Sue]

Sara wrote: "Part Two: Chapter 10. [spoilers removed]"

I found the animal killing hard too, Sara (view spoiler)[ I especially found it shocking that Lat seemed to have a bloodlust for the wolves when he and Carmichael saved that calf hand seemed to care about it. It was probably different for them with predatory animals who would come after their cattle. They also did need the fur to keep warm. Even still, it's hard to take. (hide spoiler)]

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Yes, it seems like such unproductive killing. (view spoiler)[They kill indiscriminately with the poison, getting other animals and birds. The buffalo are all but gone, and they know that, but still all they can think about is killing them. Of course, we have seen this mentality in the previous novels, along with the same attitude toward killing Indians, so it isn't shocking, just sickening. I was glad to get through that section and hope it doesn't crop its head again. (hide spoiler)]

[Sue]

End of part 3 spoilers (view spoiler)[ I was shocked by Lat's reaction to Tom marrying Jen. I guess Lat and Cassie have no hope in anything more than they have now. I can understand any man hesitating to marry a prostitute, even if they were in love, but I'm surprised that he would be so judgmental towards Tom. Maybe it's just because he's afraid of getting that idea that they could marry? Even still, it's pretty cold. (hide spoiler)]

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Sue wrote: "Sara wrote: "Part Two: Chapter 10. [spoilers removed]"

Part Three: (view spoiler)[That surprised me as well, Sue. I was glad they provided the background from Brownie whipping him so that we understand why he feels about it so strongly. Obviously Brownie never really got beyond Mercy's pregnancy when they married. I wonder what advice his mother would offer him. If he goes back to Oregon to get the cattle, we might get a chance to find out. (hide spoiler)]

[Terry]

I cannot access spoilers removed. Do we have readers who are following behind? Can you post the spoilers again later?