Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion
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The Way West
Buddy Reads
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The Way West Buddy Read (expanded to include The Big Sky; Fair Land, Fair Land and These Thousand Hills)
Yeah! I finally finished The Big Sky late last night and will be moving on to FLFL this week, after I have gone back and read everyone's comments (which I tried not to read in case there were any spoilers. ☺️).I will add comments later, but my thoughts now are:
1) I loved loved loved this book. While The Way West was more about people (I think), The Big Sky was more about the land -- and Guthrie described it in such unforgettable detail that it makes me wish I could have experienced it as the mountain men did.
2) Boone Caudill is a horrible person... I was going to be kind to him until his treatment/mistreatment of poor innocent Nancy Litsey (reminiscent of Mr. Mack's treatment of Mercy McBee). I'm not a psychologist, but I would call him a narcissistic psychopath.
3) I'm not so certain that Jim Deakins died. I read and re-read his "death scene", and I really have high hopes that he recovered as he did the first time he was shot. Maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part. He's just too nice a guy to die under this cloud of doubt.
4) Regarding Boone and Teal Eye's baby, as soon as I read " Eyes no see. Eyes got sick. No see."... The baby stirred at her voice. The lids pulled open. Before they closed again, Boone saw the eyes swim shrunken and milky-blind. I immediately thought that this baby probably suffered a birth defect due to Boone's venereal disease. So Boone, angry over his son's imperfection, was actually the cause of it.
So much to think about and discuss with you all. I can't wait to read your comments!
Sara wrote: "A thought about The Big Sky [spoilers removed]" (Message 104)My thoughts, too, Sara! And now (view spoiler)
Sara and Sue: I absolutely love your comments about Boone and Jim. (view spoiler)You both wrote such beautiful, insightful comments on the west before pioneer families settled it. Indeed, it was Eden without the softening effects of Eve. Love that, Sara!
Lori wrote (Message 142): "Dick's age was something else. I didn't realize how old he must have been (for the time) in TWW. He was graying and the old guy in TBS compared to 18 year old Boone. He must have been in his 40's when he returned to the farming life and got married which was 7 years before Boone sees him at his farm in 1843. TWW begins shortly after TBS."Dick's age is something that's been troubling me as well, because I just couldn't put it all together. Your explanation makes sense to me now. So my guess is he was probably around 37 when he first appears in 1830 in TBS, then is around 52 when he guides the wagon train in 1845 in TWW?
Terry wrote (Message 196): "I don't know if this will work, but try this link:Where the Clearwater River meets the Snake:
https://community.nrs.com/duct-tape/2..."
What an awesome link, Terry! I loved reading these women's experiences and wished I was a) younger and b) more adventurous! But I loved how they experienced the same mosquito and wind problems that Guthrie described in the Mandan's journey up the Missouri. Some things obviously never change. Great post! Thank you for sharing it!
Terry wrote (Message 197): "Okay, so I guess I can put in weblinks, but I cannot copy/paste photos. So, since I have talked about it, just to give you an idea of where I s[pent my life as a teenager, see the following link. I..."Oh wow, Terry! This is stunning! What a fabulous view you must have had from up there! The first thing that struck me is how much of a "cowboy" feel Nevada City has managed to maintain. My husband had always wanted to visit Cheyenne, WY because of the cowboy movies he'd seen as a child. When we got there and realized it was just another modern city, he almost cried. It broke my heart that he was so disappointed. So this is giving me hope that there are still "gold rush" type cities that we can visit one day.
Terry wrote (Message 199): "When they talked of their joints hurting with age, I can relate. I am going to need double partial knee replacement surgery in November. It’s bone on bone at this point and I am tired of the pain whenever I walk. Of course, for recovery, I will need to lay in a supply of reading material!"I feel for you, Terry! I'm sure everything will go well, and it will be a great time to pamper yourself and catch up on your reading. Like Sara, I have several family members and friends who have had total knee replacement surgeries, and their surgeries have made such a positive difference in their lives.
Shirley, Nevada City has changed some since I lived there, but is definitely worth visiting. When I lived in the area, Grass Valley had a population of 7500 and Nevada City had 2500 people. I think there are about 5000 more people in the area now. If you do some research, there is a lot to see. Nearby Grass Valley also has The Empire Mine and other gold rush era landmarks. If you plan trip, Nevada City is about an hour’s drive from Sacramento. A few days there should be satisfying. I would recommend driving from there to Truckee for lunch and a little browsing, and then over Donner Summit and down to the north shore of Lake Tahoe, as long as you are in the neighborhood. Tahoe is spectacular. Reno, of course, is not far from there, but for a real feel of the old west, Virginia City, NV has more of a cowboy feel than anything I have seen. Look it up online to see what I mean.
Shirley and Sara, thanks for your encouragement about my upcoming knee replacement!
Mod
Yes, I gasped and then thought, "how could it have ended differently and still been realistic?" These books about settling the West are not "cowboy and indian" books, the way so many films, tv shows, and books were in the days of Roy Rogers and Gene Autry. I am really glad to have read these, as well.
Mod
OMG, Shirley--thank you! I had not even considered that the venereal disease was the cause of the blindness. Makes Boone's treatment even more despicable (if that is possible).
It just occurred to me that maybe Guthrie’s title may mean “fair land” in the sense of “fair game” — in other words, there for the taking. What do you think?
Mod
WOw, so much discussion today here and very interesting things! I have just finished Lonesome Dove and LOVED that and will now focus on FLFL. I actually started it a few nights ago and didn't want to put it down. But LD kept calling me back and I'm glad. Looking forward to adding to the discussion.
Sara wrote: "Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "Yeah! I finally finished The Big Sky late last night and will be moving on to FLFL this week, after I have gone back and read everyone's comments (which I tried not t..."I hadn't considered that either! I certainly lends another possible reason for the baby having been Boone's for sure. And him not knowing about the red hair in his family.
Terry, I loved hearing about your travels, the Sierras and Nevada City. My stepmother lives by Northern Lake Tahoe (Incline Village) and I've hiked in mountains near there. It's beautiful, and I'd love to explore more of the Sierras. I'm glad you loved this too. I hope your surgery goes well and it is a great side effect to be stuck with nothing to do but read!
I agree Shirley, Boone is a narcissistic psychopath! Perfect description. I also agree that The Big Sky was more about the Landscape and The Way West more about people. That's a great point about Boone's VD causing the blindness!
Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "Lori wrote (Message 142): "Dick's age was something else. I didn't realize how old he must have been (for the time) in TWW. He was graying and the old guy in TBS compared to 18 year old Boone. He m..."On Dick's age, it comes up in FFL and he isn't even sure! He estimates mid 70's in the 3rd section if I remember correctly.
Lori wrote: "WOw, so much discussion today here and very interesting things! I have just finished Lonesome Dove and LOVED that and will now focus on FLFL. I actually started it a few nights ago and didn't want ..."I wish I had time to read Lonesome Dove again. It's the best book ever. I may try to read the whole series next year in chronological story order. Maybe I'll fill up my Old and New with those so that I have to get to them!
Lori wrote: "And him [Boone] not knowing about the red hair in his family.I know, huh? Although I don't believe that Boone would have expressed any interest in his family roots.
Terry wrote: "Shirley, Nevada City has changed some since I lived there, but is definitely worth visiting. When I lived in the area, Grass Valley had a population of 7500 and Nevada City had 2500 people. I think..."Thank you so much for all this information, Terry. What a great tour down memory lane. And of course, I would really love to visit the site where the Donner Party met its fate... I've read so much about them and the hardships of all those who left too late in the season. Virginia City sounds exactly like what my husband was hoping to find in Cheyenne. I'll go check this area out for a possible long vacation. Thank you!
Sue wrote: "Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "Lori wrote (Message 142): "Dick's age was something else. I didn't realize how old he must have been (for the time) in TWW. He was graying and the old guy in TBS comp..."I haven't started FLFL yet, but wow... I didn't put Dick at 70! Was that some time after TWW (1845)?
Shirley, it starts as Dick is leaving the wagon train party from TWW and covers a span of around 20-25 years I believe. so that would put him somewhere around early to mid 50's at the end of TWW
From Wikipedia: The Marias Massacre (also known as the Baker Massacre or the Piegan Massacre) was a massacre of Piegan Blackfeet Indians carried out by the United States Army as part of the Indian Wars. The massacre took place on January 23, 1870, in Montana Territory. Approximately 200 Indians were killed, most of whom were women, children and elderly men.
I think the stories rerun from about 1840 to 1870, at the end of FLFL.
Sue and Terry... Thank you for the clarification on the time period covered by the series and Dick Summers' ages throughout. I can't wait to jump into FLFL!
I was just looking at the series of books and their publication dates. I had not realized that Guthrie wrote FLFL last even though it falls third chronologically. The author's note in my book says he wrote this because he had a time gap to fill - 1845 to 1870. This wasn't published until 1982.
The Big Sky 1947
The Way West 1949
These Thousand Hills 1956
Arfive 1970
The Last Valley 1975
Lori wrote: "I was just looking at the series of books and their publication dates. I had not realized that Guthrie wrote FLFL last even though it falls third chronologically. The author's note in my book says ..."Thank you for this post, Lori. I was under the impression that FLFL was the last in the trilogy series. So glad there are more. I marked them all as to-read. That's great that Guthrie went back and filled in the gaps with FLFL. His fans thank him!
Mod
Sara wrote: "I am also glad he filled the gap. I think we would have felt cheated not to know what happened to Dick Summers after he left the wagon train. I'm betting a lot of people asked him about that!"I agree, Sara. I'm sure a lot of his readers, like us, wanted to know what became of Dick Summers. I'm so glad he wrote FLFL!
Mod
Before I move on to FLFL, I have been looking for a passage in TBS which struck me at the time as Manifest Destiny in a nutshell. It was when Peabody was trying to convince Boone to show him a new pass over the Rockies to Oregon.I'm not interested in beaver. I'm interested in future development. You appear to think, because the Indians haven't made use of this great western country, that nobody can...When country which might support so many actually supports so few, then, by thunder, the inhabitants have not made good use of the natural possibilities. That failure surely is justification for invasion, peaceful if possible, forcible if necessary, by people who can and will capitalize on opportunity.I find it terribly sad that native Americans lost their way of life (which relied on an unrestricted, open country - although there was constant fighting among the various tribes for the same hunting lands), but it has always been in the nature of man to explore and populate new lands. Man has been and will always be an explorer... just as now, man is exploring Mars as a possible colonial outpost.
To my ears, Peabody's statement sounded cold and harsh, but unfortunately/fortunately, he *was* stating the truth of man's forward progress.
Mod
Shirley and Sara, I agree with both of you. That is a great quote you mentioned Shirley. It is harsh but true. I agree that our way of life could never have existed, Sara. We ourselves would likely never have been born.What's most tragic is that the explorers couldn't find a way to peacefully coexist. It's hard to believe that the massacre happened so shortly after the civil war had ended.
Sadly people kept exploiting peaceful Native Americans long after this. I read Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI a few years ago and it was bone-chilling.
That was such an eye-opening book, Sue. It really made me angry, such a heartbreaking story of how those who were to be protectors were their killers. Sadly, as you all say, our way of life wouldn't be what it is without so much loss on the part of others. And the loss is named progress which is ironic.
Sara wrote: "I have that same reaction, Shirley. It is sad to see the toll on real people and a way of life, and it is easy to wish for the open spaces to remain untouched, but reality is that our way of life c..."It is so true everything you say, Sara, and so sad that, in the name of progress, something has to be destroyed for something else to come into existence (not always necessarily better). As I'm typing this, I'm thinking of the power of eminent domain. I have seen many instances where private property was appropriated for a local or state government's economic benefit. In a way, Eminent Domain is just another form of Manifest Destiny. [stepping off my soapbox now.😉]
Sue and Lori... I also read Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI a few years ago and could not believe that this vileness to the Osage Nation went on so long! Just an unbelievable story!
message 240:
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Sara, Old School Classics
(last edited Jun 15, 2021 11:12AM)
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I don't want to crowd your soapbox, Shirley, but I could get right up there with you. What is most disgusting is that there are as many instances of it being done only to line the pockets of a few than to have any benefit for the many.
And, there is the added element of hatred based on difference. White settlers felt they were superior to the Indian and often refused to even regard them as people, but they were also afraid, and acted out of fear. I try not to judge too harshly, because this is not a situation any of us has ever experienced, but I imagine it was pretty easy to go from seeing scalped bodies, especially of people you knew, to wanting to eradicate every Indian in the vicinity. Like everything in life, it is far from simple, and I loved these books because Guthrie did not try to make it simple. It required a lot of men like Summers to watch the slaughter at the riverboat, come so close to being killed themselves, and then approach the Blackfeet with trust and without aggression.
It's so nice that everyone has read Killers fo the Flower Moon so we all have that added experience. You are exactly right Sara about it usually being for the benefit of the powerful few. Those powerful control communications and teach or encourage people to hate.
I have to say that Paulette Jiles tackles what we are talking about here so well in The Color Of Lightning. It's heavy on violence but also on compasion. I wish you could all read it right now!
Mod
Unlike others, I have not read Killers of the Flower Moon, but the other book is on my TBR list.
Mod
Sue wrote: "I have to say that Paulette Jiles tackles what we are talking about here so well in The Color Of Lightning. It's heavy on violence but also on compasion. I wish you could all read it right now!"I've never heard of this book, Sue, but I just looked it up, and it sounds great. I read and loved her News of the World, and I bought Enemy Women afterwards, but I've not yet read it. It sounds like I need to move both of these two books up my list, too.
Terry wrote: "Unlike others, I have not read Killers of the Flower Moon, but the other book is on my TBR list."Killers of the Flower Moon: The Osage Murders and the Birth of the FBI is spellbinding, Terry. I think you would really enjoy it.
Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "Sue wrote: "I have to say that Paulette Jiles tackles what we are talking about here so well in The Color Of Lightning. It's heavy on violence but also on compasion. I wish you could all read it ri..."It's much more violent and complicated than News of the World, but it's great in a different way. Captain Kidd makes a cameo and the hero from The Color Of Lightning plays a small but crucial part in News of the World.
I purchased Simon the Fiddler new and Enemy WomenEnemy Women and Stormy Weather at a used book store. I'm going to read Enemy Women next and then Simon the Fidler as those are all in the civil war period whereas Stormy Weather is set during the depression. I love her writing and will prioritize anything from her now.
Mod
Sara wrote: "I also bought Enemy Women and have not read it yet. Do I see a buddy read in our future?"That would be great, Sara!
Sara wrote: "I also bought Enemy Women and have not read it yet. Do I see a buddy read in our future?"That sounds great, Sara! Count me in!
Catching up on Classics (and lots more!)
Books mentioned in this topic
A Confederacy of Dunces (other topics)These Thousand Hills (other topics)
The Town (31) (other topics)
The Trees (29) (other topics)
The Fields (30) (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Conrad Richter (other topics)Ken Kesey (other topics)
Julie Fanselow (other topics)
U.S. National Park Service (other topics)
A.B. Guthrie Jr. (other topics)
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I stayed away from reading westerns for most of my life, having grown up in the 50s and 60s with such TV and movies that glamorized the cowboy while concealing the awful things done to Native Americans. I guess by the 70s, I just felt there was too much hypocrisy to continue enjoying that shoot-em-up fantasy world.
Like my experience of finally reading McMurtry’s Lonesome Dove, I am so happy to have found this author, too. A.B. Guthrie, Jr. creates unforgettable and authentic characters and describes both American history and the landscape of the northwest in vivid and cinematic detail. I look forward to reading the next book in the series in August and am happy to have company for the journey. I wonder what Guthrie will show us next.