The Way West Buddy Read (expanded to include The Big Sky; Fair Land, Fair Land and These Thousand Hills)

[Sue]

Sara wrote: "No problem, Lori. I find a lot of things there that are unavailable anywhere else. Just a heads up--it will say "borrow for an hour" and when you click on that, it will often give you an option to ..."

Do those ebooks work on Kindle?

[Sara, Old School Classics]

If there is a way to download, I have missed it, Sue. When I read there, I have to just read from their site. Worth it when the book cannot be found elsewhere for anything less than a mint.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Many thanks to those who are waiting for Lori and me to finish The Big Sky. Should we say mid-June for starting Fair Land, Fair Land, and should we just continue to use this thread or do you guys prefer a new one?

[Sara, Old School Classics]

A thought about The Big Sky (view spoiler)[I had given no thought to venereal diseases and how these people would cope with them or cure them. They must, of course, have been fairly common among men who used prostitutes, and some of them would have been deadly. I guess Boone was lucky it was the clap and not syphilis. (hide spoiler)]

[Terry]

Mid June works for me. Either thread approach is okay, too.

[Lori]

That sounds great Sara.

[Marilyn]

Sara wrote: "It seems it is newer books that actually have to be borrowed one hour at a time (pain in the caboose). ..."

The site has to follow the same copyright laws as your local library. Also, the authors aren't going to write books for free. Colson Whitehead and other authors have been very vocal about this site. Having said that, I also appreciate finding items on this site that I can't find elsewhere. It's a balance.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I use it primarily for out of print or older books that libraries never want to keep anymore. I found it when I was trying to find the oldest of the Pulitzer's for my challenge. I never read new books there, and I'm surprised anything as new as Colson Whitehead would even be included. It is far less convenient a way to read than buying a Kindle or print version, but I have been grateful for it a time or two.

[Sue]

I can do mid June for the next book

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Mid June it is then and we will just continue this thread since there are no objections.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Woohoo!!! I *finally* finished The Way West last night! Sorry for being such a slug in reading it and not being able to participate much in the discussion, but I was enjoying it so much that I found myself getting slower and slower, not wanting it to end. I absolutely loved this book and hope that Dick Summers appears again in Fair Land, Fair Land, which I am looking forward to reading with you starting mid-June (I may just go back to read The Big Sky later).

My local library is really great, and it has all three of these books in hardback. I will be returning The Way West and picking up The Big Sky and Fair Land, Fair Land later on this week when they are transferred to my local branch.

I will be reading everyone's comments when I get a chance today and will be adding my own. This is really such a big story.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

So pleased you finished, Shirley and excited to see your comments. This was indeed a big story. I am enjoying The Big Sky. Guthrie had a great style, he just pulls you right into the place and time. I think The Way West appeals more because we can all imagine ourselves as these pioneers, but the blazing of the Mountain Men is an important element as well.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Sara wrote: "I am enjoying The Big Sky."

I'm so glad to hear that, Sara! From the comments I've read, this one is a little more "earthy" than The Way West? But like you, I agree that "the blazing of the Mountain Men is an important element as well. This is a part of the westward movement that has also fascinated me. When I read that Dick Summers had met with Jim Bridger and others at the rendezvous in years past, I immediately knew what he was talking about from other books I've read. I'm sure I'll enjoy it as well. I'm anxious to get my book in and join you and Lori.

[Lori]

Yay, Shirley! I am glad you are joining us too! I just got my book today and ordered Fair Land, Fair Land for next month. I'm also going to be reading Lonesome Dove starting June 1 with another group so I need to put my cowboy boots on! Will be fun!

[Sara, Old School Classics]

This is a pretty raw tale, but then that is true of history. It would not have been either easy or pretty. I am beginning the last section and have found it lives up to the The Way West for me. I suspect that my already formed love of Dick Summers helped.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Lori wrote: "I need to put my cowboy boots on! Will be fun!"

This made me laugh! Sounds like a great plan, Lori! I read Lonesome Dove many, many years ago and thought it was great. I look forward to continue reading Guthrie with you.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Sara wrote: "This is a pretty raw tale, but then that is true of history. It would not have been either easy or pretty. I am beginning the last section and have found it lives up to the The Way West for me. I s..."

I agree with you, Sara. These early pioneers, the trappers, were necessarily a rough bunch. They had to be to survive in the wilderness as they did. I'm sure Guthrie wrote The Big Sky in their voice.

[Terry]

Shirley, so glad you got to the finish line and loved The Way West like the rest of us. So glad, too, that we are all going to take the next journey together! This is so much fun!

Lori, get that Lonesome Dove read! I didn’t even know about the book until a few years ago. I would have never predicted that I would give a book about a cattle drive five stars. Of course, it is about so much more than that.

If you are like me, you won’t want to put LD down, so it will go fast even though it is long. It’s the type of book to savor over Memorial Day weekend. Like Dick Summers, Augustus McCrae (sp?) is one of the great western fictional heroes. For me, I loved him even better than Dick Summers. And it fits in nicely with this time period (just pre The Way West) going from Texas to Montana.

Sara, thanks so much for your organizing skills, and, as always, I enjoy your comments.

I ordered Fair Land, Fair Land today. Okay, cowgirls, let’s do it!

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Lonesome Dove is a 6-star book (minimum) and Terry is so right--Augustus is one of the greatest characters ever conceived. I hope to join in, Lori, but not sure I will be able to. It is so hard to convince myself to make time for re-reads when there are so many I have not read screaming at me. But, I will at least be popping in to see what you guys are having to say about it!
I would love to know if these books we are reading now were read by McMurtry and inspired him. I can see how they might have been.

I just closed the book on The Big Sky and I am trying to digest before I write my review. I am glad I read The Way West first, but I loved The Big Sky as well. Looking forward to Fair Land, Fair Land!

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Sue K.H. - After reading your review on The Big Sky, I wanted to make a few comments about it here.

OMG, The ending was a gut-punch for me, but I saw it as the final and complete severing of Boone from anything like civilization. (view spoiler)[He was always so quick to act, and Jim was his conscience, he never really had one of his own. Jim had stood between him and very bad decisions a number of times. He was so reduced to his animal instincts that he had lost his soul, in this last act of betrayal. What he had, Jim kept saying, was loyalty. If that is so, then in the end he had lost everything. How easily he wiped out his love, respect, and debt to this very good man!

I wasn't bothered by the lack of development of Teal Eye, because I felt she represented the way Indian women were treated (and for that matter all women who happened to be in this harsh masculine world). Boone was the focus, and even his feelings for her were incomplete things. Having already read The Way West, I knew Guthrie could and had developed full-bodied female characters, but I wondered if he wasn't saying that the lack of female influence was what kept this from being paradise. Eden without Eve.

Teal Eye could easily have had a story all her own, but I'm thinking, for Guthrie, that wasn't the story he wanted to tell. There was so much about Boone that was larger than life and needed to be in order for him to survive, but in the end that was not enough, there was also something missing and it was the something that makes us good humans together. I'm not sure if he will show up again in the later books, but I wonder what else you could say about him. He went from being someone you rooted for and admired to someone you could simply never understand. How do you love a man, save his life and have him save yours, and then do what he did in a moment of rage, without so much as a moment of hesitation, and without looking back at your only friend dying on the ground with instant regret? (hide spoiler)]

[Sue]

Sara wrote: "Sue K.H. - After reading your review on The Big Sky, I wanted to make a few comments about it here.

OMG, The ending was a gut-punch for me, but I saw it as the final and complete severing of Boone..."

Wow Sara! Your explanation is so beautiful! I loved the Eden reference! It makes sense and like you said knowing that he did create strong women in The Way West would have made a difference for me. Still, that ending! I'm still mad about it. I've never been so mad about an ending. (view spoiler)[ I loved Jim Deakins and how he helped and stood by Boone, even putting his life in danger for him. Then Boone couldn't even let him explain himself?! Do you think I'd benefit from reading the last 44 pages? From the blurb on Fair land, Fair Land, it sounds like more will get resolved with that ending so I'm looking forward to it. (hide spoiler)]

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Totally had the same feeling, Sue. And a visceral reaction of (view spoiler)[after everything they have been through together, why would you do this, Guthrie? I think you absolutely must go read the final 44 pages. It will help you with the ending of Big Sky, seeing Boone after he has done this matters, and you get a last view of Dick Summers, as well. You won't get over being mad, but I would have hated for the book to just end on that murderous note....which is what has happened for you. (hide spoiler)]

[Sara, Old School Classics]

LORI - Don't open any of these spoilers until you have finished reading The Big Sky!

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Before I even started reading The Way West, I knew the story of pioneers on the Oregon Trail would resonate with me, as this is one of my favorite stories in U.S. history. However, the story of Dick Summers wound up having a greater impact on me.

I visualized a man who spent his youth in freedom and exploration and danger, testing himself daily who, toward the end of his life, wants to revisit those old familiar places. But when he gets there, everything has changed, and he realizes he can “never go back home again.” Everyone he knew is either dead or, like him, aging rapidly. So when they reach Oregon, he knows he must go back to the mountains and the Plains and the Popo Agee and live out his life in the only place that really felt like home to him.

Dick Summers understood that his way of life was past, and a new day was dawning… a time of marching civilization, as Lije Evans so adequately described when he reflected:

They'd made it. They had rolled the miles. And back of them came others. Crossers of plains. Grinders through the dust. Climbers of mountains. Forders of rivers. Meeters of dangers. Sailors at last of the big waters. Nation makers. Builders of the country.

Lije understood that they were just one cog in this great migration westward. Others would follow in their footsteps. And men like Dick Summers would either have to adapt or try to recreate the past as they roamed the mountains and plains.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Great summation, Shirley. I was also very familiar with this historical story, but having these very concrete characters and their individual experiences to relate the history to was wonderful. I agree about Dick. He knows he is a dinosaur. I loved his attitude toward the changes and the people that bring them. He harbors nothing of resentment. I'm anxious to get to the next book and see where his journey leads him. I hope there is a last place of happiness he can find before the encroachment leaves nothing of the past and no place to go.

I love the way this story is bittersweet. I felt a kind of wrenching sadness for the old ways and freedoms that were lost and yet a great pride in the courageous people who were moving forward and conquering this land. Always the dilemma--we love the untouched land, but then we also want to live there.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Sara wrote: "Great summation, Shirley. I was also very familiar with this historical story, but having these very concrete characters and their individual experiences to relate the history to was wonderful. I a..."

Yes! Exactly, Sara! Your thoughts are exactly how I felt. I also hope that Dick Summers finds a place that will bring him joy.

I love the way this story is bittersweet. I felt a kind of wrenching sadness for the old ways and freedoms that were lost and yet a great pride in the courageous people who were moving forward and conquering this land. Always the dilemma--we love the untouched land, but then we also want to live there.

This is so true, Sara! Summers and Evans both went on this journey, each pursuing his own dream. Evans found it; Summers did not - which for me, also made this story very bittersweet. But true to Summers' character, he did not feel sorry for himself and give up his dream completely. Instead, he went back to the few vestiges of the past he thought he might find. Gotta love that man!

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Terry wrote: "Shirley, so glad you got to the finish line and loved The Way West like the rest of us. So glad, too, that we are all going to take the next journey together! This is so much fun!

I ordered Fair Land, Fair Land today. Okay, cowgirls, let’s do it!"

Thank you, Terry! This has been a great reading experience with you and the others in this Buddy Read. And yes... westward ho! Your cowgirls comment had me laughing out loud!

[Terry]

Shirley, thanks for your thoughts about the book. Yes, people move out to the country and before they know it, so has everyone else, and there is no country anymore.

As a landscape architect, I am very aware that we have very little wild land left. Even our national forests and lands are logged and ranched. Where I grew up in the Sierras, with Tahoe national forest on the other side of my back yard, there were roads and trails and cabins —marks of man. Everywhere I have practiced, there is no virgin soil. Consequently, when people ask for native landscapes, it is difficult if not impossible to achieve them, because they depend upon a substructure that no longer exists.

In the next one, I wonder if Summers will find Teal Eye. Like Sue, I hated the way that The Big Sky ended. And I somewhat wish I took the books in the order that Sara has read them, starting with The Way West.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Terry wrote: "Shirley, thanks for your thoughts about the book. Yes, people move out to the country and before they know it, so has everyone else, and there is no country anymore.

As a landscape architect, I am..."

It is frustrating, isn't it, Terry, to no longer be able to visualize what parts of our country looked like before man's encroachment! Here in the South, we are still fairly lucky because so much is still rural. I love our swamps and wetlands here in south Louisiana, but I get so frustrated when developers are able to come in and pave big subdivisions on land that is supposed to be protected wetlands by "paying" the powers that be for its replacement. As if you can replace wetlands! As a consequence, we're losing our wetlands, and flooding is a perennial problem.

I'm hoping The Big Sky comes in this weekend, so I can read it before we start reading Fair Land, Fair Land together on June 15. This Buddy Read has been one of the best discussions I have participated in on Goodreads, and I'm not quite ready to call "Woa, little dogies" on it. 😄

[Sara, Old School Classics]

When I was a kid, my dad would take us fishing on the Chattahoochee. We'd just go to a spot and sit with poles in the water and be lazy (I always took a book). No one ever challenged us and we seldom caught anything. I can only remember eating the fish we caught at the lake, not at the river. Still, today it is prohibited. If you sit on the bank you are trespassing (provided you can find a bank to sit on anymore), if you put a pole in the water without a permit, you are breaking the law. There is little of nature that we are allowed to commune with without planning anymore. And, as with the failure to protect the wetlands, Shirley, it is all about money and little else.

I'm glad you will be reading The Big Sky before going on. I suspect that anyone who hasn't will not enjoy Fair Land as much, for Boone and Teal Eye are in it and you would not know their stories at all.

Terry - Reading the stories out of sequence was a good mistake, I think.

[Lori]

Sara wrote: "LORI - Don't open any of these spoilers until you have finished reading The Big Sky!"

No worries, Sara! Thanks for the heads up. I hope to start tomorrow. Finishing up Wives and Daughters first. I'm excited to read The Big Sky!

[Lori]

Shirley - I appreciate your insights into Dick and Lije. You are so right about their journeys and how Lije found his dream and Dick didn't. I love the quote.

Dick's realization about things changing is sad but it's true. Going back home to visit my parents where I grew up will never be the same now that it was when I was a young child and teenager. I go back with different eyes, eyes that have experienced life and different places of the US and the world and nothing at home will ever be as grand as it was when I was young.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Sara wrote: "When I was a kid, my dad would take us fishing on the Chattahoochee. We'd just go to a spot and sit with poles in the water and be lazy (I always took a book). No one ever challenged us and we seld..."

I know! It is sad, isn't it, Sara? I'm sure you have such fond memories of those lazy days along the Chattahoochee. But those days, too, of hunting and gathering for the family (without a steep license fee) are in the past. Yes... it is all about the money.

I may try to find The Big Sky on the archive.org website you mentioned, if my library book doesn't come in this weekend. Thank you for letting us know about that resource. I had never heard of it before.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Lori wrote: "Shirley - I appreciate your insights into Dick and Lije. You are so right about their journeys and how Lije found his dream and Dick didn't. I love the quote.

Dick's realization about things chan..."

This is all so true, Lori! I have lived in many places in my life (in France, Germany, many states in the US), and when I've thought how nice it would be to go back and visit some of these places, I do a Google Maps search and cannot believe the physical changes that have taken place since I left. I know I would rather remember these places as I knew them then. I thought the same things you did when I was contemplating Dick's place in his new world.

It's funny really when you think how slowly the world changed for thousands of years, and then in the span of a couple of hundred years, the world changed, and is continuing to change, at such a rapid pace, that each generation is now experiencing a totally different world.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

My goodness, that is so true, Shirley. The rate of change has gained speed until it is a blur. I used to think about my grandfather going from a world of with horses and carriages to the invention of the car and airplane and living to see a man on the moon. I thought he saw more change than I ever would, but I think technology has opened the world up in ways we could never have imagined and just the fact that we are having this conversation over the net is unbelievable!

Lori, you cannot even find the town I grew up in any more. They have literally built a city over the top of it, rerouted the roads and buried my history. I know what you mean about its being different when you go home, though, it is that way for all of us. What was really strange was when I lost my parents and didn't have a "home" to go to anymore.

[Sue]

Terry wrote: "Shirley, thanks for your thoughts about the book. Yes, people move out to the country and before they know it, so has everyone else, and there is no country anymore.

As a landscape architect, I am..."

I'm hoping that Teal Eye is given more character development in Fair Fair Land Terry. I've already softened some on The Big Sky and hope to more afer FFL. I agree that it's best to read The Big Sky after The Way West but before Fair Fair Land.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Sara wrote: "Lori, you cannot even find the town I grew up in any more. They have literally built a city over the top of it, rerouted the roads and buried my history. I know what you mean about its being different when you go home, though, it is that way for all of us. What was really strange was when I lost my parents and didn't have a "home" to go to anymore."

How tragic, Sara, to have lost your parents and your home to time and "progress." When you said, They have literally built a city over the top of it, rerouted the roads and buried my history..., I immediately thought of Dombey and Son that we read together, and how the railroad displaced so many people. Progress has indeed taken a great human toll.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

What a lovely correlation, Shirley. I had not thought about it, but it truly is the same thing. Something is lost whenever great expansion is made, we always call it "progress" but I'm not sure it always is. I could really relate to Dick Summers feelings in both these novels. He is at an age where he sees his world disappearing. I have reached a similar age. My grandchildren live lives that have no resemblance to my own, and I realize mine had little resemblance to my grandmother's.

Dick Summers: “God was mighty mean in some ways, letting a body get on to a point where he always hungered to turn back, making him know he wasn’t the man he had been, making his bed cold but keeping in his mind the time when it wasn’t. It was like a man was pushed backwards downhill, seeing the top getting farther from him every day, but always seeing it, always wishing he could go back. Sometimes God seemed pretty small.”

[Lori]

I've finished The Big Sky. I had one big unanswered question (view spoiler)[ about whether or not Teal Eye was the one who caused the massacre of the Maldan crew. I'm still not certain how that occurred and her escaping if it wasn't her. Oh my this was so different from The Way West because of the nature of the mountain men and trapper, trader aspect. I didn't like it any less and I'm glad they were so different from each other. Boone was such a spitfire who wasn't very level-headed and needed the wide openess and freedom of the plains and mountains. Jim was definitely the thinking one who had fun but wasn't a loner like Boone. He needed to experience civilization every once in a while. It's interesting though that as I'm writing this, I am thinking about Dick and Lije's relationship and how Lije needed Dick's experience and know-how in order to make decisions. It's similar with Boone and Jim and how they needed each other in different ways. The fact that Boone would act without a thought was his downfall and Jim was so loyal to Boone.
I am still not sure what to think of Boone and his actions. Sara, you talked about his animal instincts which is what most likely led to his survival. This was such a strong trait in him from the beginning and it never let up. He even had the dog trailing him in the end instead of staying with his owner who mistreated him. Animals understood Boone because he was like them, acting on instinct.
I'm going to mull this over some more and will be back to post more thoughts later. I'm so glad to have read this. (hide spoiler)]

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Love your thoughts on this, Lori, especially regarding the animals and Boone. I had not thought of it in those terms, but I feel you are 100% right. It strikes me that (view spoiler)[Boone was a good person in a tight situation; when it seemed someone else was at risk and not himself: the dog, Jim when they were stranded, the Indian (Poor?--geez the name escapes me), but not so much when life was settled. He was always restless when everything was going well. He liked feeling in control of situations, but, he was not in control of himself, which led to the most dastardly deed of all! (hide spoiler)]

So glad you liked this. I think we might have profited from reading them out of order. What do you think?

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Oops, and about your big question: (view spoiler)[I wondered that as well, but the Indians were so unpredictable that it may have had nothing to do with her spurring them on. They arrived with her, perhaps the Indians didn't give them a chance to explain that they had returned her and were not the ones who took her. I think she left the boat because she was now home and knew her way back to her people. She didn't need the protection of the crew and in fact might not have wanted to be seen with them.

I was never clear on why sometimes the Indians attacked and other times they welcomed the white men into their camps, but I was clear that what made them safe in the end was the lack of numbers from all the deaths. (hide spoiler)]

[Lori]

Sara, I am glad we read them in this order. I think knowing so much about Dick before reading The Big Sky had me searching for tidbits about him. For instance, when he leaves Lije at the end of The Way West, he dreams of the Popo Agie(?sp?) and it seemed there was a story there he was remembering. There was a mention of this tribe in TBS and so I was looking for that story. Dick's age was something else. I didn't realize how old he must have been (for the time) in TWW. He was graying and the old guy in TBS compared to 18 year old Boone. He must have been in his 40's when he returned to the farming life and got married which was 7 years before Boone sees him at his farm in 1843. TWW begins shortly after TBS.

Dick was very much the same in both books, but we saw him in his element - hunting and trapping and learning the Indian ways and befriending them. These experiences made him the Dick he was though older and wiser in The Way West and the perfect person to take the people to Oregon.

What about you Sara?

[Sara, Old School Classics]

You have expressed exactly my feelings, Lori. It was lovely to step back in time and see where Dick had come from and also made his reflections about his age have even more meaning. That final encounter with Boone also made me understand why Dick was thinking about his life before and wanting to go back into the wild after he had parted from the settlers. Dick is a marvelous character, and his story is really the story of the country. There is nothing about the western development that isn't within his personal experience.

[Lori]

Sue, I hope you decide to read the last section of The Big Sky. It will show you the quandary Boone winds up in. It also got me to realize that Boone was exactly like his father even though he didn't want to be. (view spoiler)[When Boone talked so admiringly about Zeb it made his Pa mad because he was stuck in the life he didn't want. Zeb got to go be free and independent from a civilized life which his Pa wanted as well and which Boone wound up doing. (hide spoiler)]

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Great observation, Lori. I agree, and you are right that Boone was very like his father. How sad is that?

[Sue]

Lori wrote: "Sue, I hope you decide to read the last section of The Big Sky. It will show you the quandary Boone winds up in. It also got me to realize that Boone was exactly like his father even though he didn..."

I'll try to fit that in before we start on Fair, Fair Land Lori.

[Sue]

I'm so glad that you finished and Loved it too Shirley. It seems it's unanimous that Dick Summers is the favorite for everyone. I'm so glad that Guthrie went back to finish his story with Fair, Fair Land so we can have more closure with him and hopefully with Teal Eye too (From The Big Sky).

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I have begun Fair Land, Fair Land. I had meant to only read a couple of chapters, but there is not walking away from Guthrie once you begin. I am so happy to be back in Dick Summers' company.

This spoiler through Chapter 25:(view spoiler)[First of all, I was glad to have Higgins go along with Summers, it seemed so appropriate that he would have a friend along. I have come to love him, too. He adds a bit of humor--loved the search for the bride, and I could almost hear the plaintive sound of the fiddle in all that open country. No wonder it affected the Indians as it did.

The meeting up with Teal Eye made sense to me. She was still where he had last seen her and he wasn't seeking her, or even thinking about her. I'm sorry he is obsessed with seeing Caudill, but it does make sense because Dick is not the kind of man to let Caudill's behavior sit easily on him, especially seeing Teal Eye and Nocansee every day.

The story with the bear was wonderful. It proves the cruelty and senselessness of the people that followed the mountain men into the country and just randomly destroyed life. It also proved the idea of good medicine, good karma. Again, the descriptions were so vivid. I could just see that bear rearing up, with only one hand in the air. I loved Dick so much for wanting to save him.

He named his child, Lije, so he hasn't forgotten Evans. I wonder if they will ever meet again. It seems doubtful, since I cannot see Dick going to Oregon or Lije coming to Blackfoot country. (hide spoiler)]

Just a few random thoughts flung out there. I am excited to
discuss this in detail with you all! I am putting A.B. Guthrie on my list of writers you absolutely, positively must read.

[Sue]

I'll get started on it tonight!

[Terry]

I am almost through with Jude the Obscure, although it has taken more time to read than I thought. I will start FLFL as soon as I finish.