The Way West Buddy Read (expanded to include The Big Sky; Fair Land, Fair Land and These Thousand Hills)

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I'm trying to be careful not to give away any plot elements, Shirley. Anxious to have your thoughts on it as well.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Sara wrote: "I'm trying to be careful not to give away any plot elements, Shirley. Anxious to have your thoughts on it as well."

Thank you, Sara! Not to worry. Please feel free to share your thoughts with everyone. I'll catch up a little later when I'm further along. I'm loving it so much! Everything about it is so real, that it's hard to believe that Guthrie wrote this story 100 years after the fact. He writes more like an eyewitness. I definitely want to read his other two books in the series.

[Terry]

Shirley, I had the same reaction to the book — that it almost seemed like he experienced the journey himself!

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I agree, there is a genuineness in his writing that makes the experiences seem very real, and he is able to paint scenes so graphically it is almost like watching a movie in your mind.

[Lori]

I have finished and I am so glad I joined this read with you guys! I felt like I was right there with this train of families riding/walking/camping/cooking/ washing/packing/putting up tents........everything! How exhausting and utterly demanding every day just to get a few miles on. I cannot imagine making it myself.

Favorite characters: Dick Summers, of course. So sensible and able. Without him, they'd have all turned back with the Turleys. He was a rock and I (view spoiler)[couldn't believe when he showed up to save Brownie from the Sioux. I thought it was all over for him but Dick, I should have known would be there! (hide spoiler)]

Rebecca's strength, perseverance and fearlessness was impressive. I loved how she took to Mercy with such love.

The writing was breathtaking and so vivid that it's unbelievable that one could create these scenes without seeing them personally.

[Sue]

Lori wrote: "I have finished and I am so glad I joined this read with you guys! I felt like I was right there with this train of families riding/walking/camping/cooking/ washing/packing/putting up tents..........."

I'm glad you joined too Lori and I agree with everything you said. I'd add that besides his vivid scene descriptions, I loved his psychological peek into the minds of the characters. I even felt a little sympathy for Mack, who disgusted me with his actions. He was weak and hapless rather than cool and calculating. It doesn't excuse his actions by any means but it was interesting to see his thought process.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

And, I loved that Mercy (view spoiler)[was honest with Brownie and did not attempt to deceive him into believing the baby was his. (hide spoiler)] Even though her parents, particularly Pa, were despicable, she was a good person and would thrive with the Evans family.

Sue, I know exactly what you are saying about Mack.

[Lori]

Sue, YES! I too completely agree with your depiction of Mack. He was a complicated guy. I also liked how in your earlier post you described the different leadership styles of Tadlock, Dick and Lije. Dick's experience with Lije's willingness to listen were the winning combination on this journey. And I believe it holds true in any leadership environment today. With my husband's job in the military, I saw many different leadership styles and the most effective ones were not overbearing and "do as I say" types.

Sara, I completely agree with your thoughts about Mercy.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Lori, leadership is an interesting dynamic. I am a great worker, I can get the job done, but I HATE having to lead. The hardest part of owning my own business was handling all the employees. I never worked well for others who were authoritarian, but I had a few bosses that I would have walked off the side of a cliff for, and interestingly each of them had military backgrounds and had served in combat.

[Lori]

Sara, that is very interesting to learn about you. I'd love to know what kind of business you ran. I am the exact same way though when it comes to leading (always the shy girl). It is going way far out of our comfort zones, right? I love hearing that your favorite bosses were military men. I was in a position to lead spouses as a result of my husband's job and I must say that it stretched me in ways I never knew I was capable. I learned a lot about myself and others and I am grateful for it.

I think that Lije had to (view spoiler)[come to a similar realization when he stood up to and beat up Tadlock when he wanted to hang the Indian for stealing. He knew (because Dick told him) that the time would come when he was going to have to exert himself. But he did it correctly, I think, and found out he was able to take care of matters without Dick's help all of the time. I went through several uncomfortable experiences where I had to decide how best to handle them and came away much stronger, even though at the time I was nervous. My "no conflict" peaceable self learned how to make it through. I think this is what happened with Lije. (hide spoiler)]

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I had a graphic arts business which I eventually morphed into a photography studio, Lori. My husband and I also owned an auto parts store. I loved the photography, which I did on my own, without employees. I was always mediating at the other two businesses. lol (this thing keeps wanting to change that to "meditating" which I probably did my share of as well.)

I also found it interesting to watch Lije find his feet in his leadership role, which he didn't really want in the first place. I think he was a natural leader, though, and the men respected him and turned to him, just as they did to Dick, but for different reasons.

[Lori]

Sara, I think we'd be fast friends in the real world! You and I have so many similar interests, now with photography! I've never been a professional just an amateur who thought I had a little skill at it. But it's been so long since I've picked up my camera. I am in awe of your opportunity!! Thanks for sharing that.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Feels that way for me too, Lori!

[Sue]

I feel the same way as you guys about not liking to lead people, but unfortunately I would always get pushed into it. I much prefer being responsible for my own work.

[Sue]

I watched the film tonight and it was so cheesy. I normally like the film when I like the book and even don't mind when they change things up, but this film changed too many things and made it into some formulaic Cowboys and Indians movie. Urrrg!

[Sara, Old School Classics]

That is disappointing, but nice to know, Sue. I won't bother with it now. Thanks.

[Lori]

Oh NO! That's good to know though. So many good novels that go to film get transformed but not in a good way. I'm sorry.

[Terry]

Thanks for letting us know, Sue.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

To Everyone Here:

Several of us have talked about reading the two other books in the series. Who would be interested in continuing the buddy read next month with The Big Sky?

[Sue]

I'm definitely in for the 3rd one and will peak in on the discussion of Big Sky. I'm curious if others will dislike the ending as much as I did. I can still love a book even when I don't like the ending. My strong reaction to that one is probably evidence of how invested I was is some of the characters.

[Terry]

Like Sue, I am also in for the third book in the series, and will watch what others have to say about The Big Sky.

[Lori]

I may look for a copy of Big Sky and try to start before May. Maybe. Anyone other than Sara and me who haven’t read it?

[Sara, Old School Classics]

It looks like it is mostly you and me for the Big Sky, Lori, so I will plan to start ASAP and maybe we can get to the third book in June.

[Sue]

I was looking at some of his other books because I could have sworn there were more in the series. It looks like These Thousand Hills is also part of the series and was published before the 3rd book but takes place later. We can see how it goes but I will probably want to read this 4th one too. I don't know why they don't have this one included. I read a review that said it has some of the same characters.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

I'm not reading the comments yet, as I'm only halfway through, but I wanted to post my thoughts on Chapters 16 and 17.

Spoiler Alert for Chapters 16 and 17

My heart is grieving through these chapters. Having read of how pioneers had to face constant death along the Oregon Trail in Women's Diaries of the Westward Journey, Guthrie really brought this home to me. I cannot even begin to comprehend how horrible it must have been to bury a loved one along the way and know that you would never be able to remember where they are buried, or if wolves would desecrate their graves. Where did these ordinary men and women find the courage to undertake such an ordeal, with no promise of a better future at destination's end!

[Sue]

Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "I'm not reading the comments yet, as I'm only halfway through, but I wanted to post my thoughts on Chapters 16 and 17.

Spoiler Alert for Chapters 16 and 17

My heart is grieving through these chap..."

That is so true Shirley. That scene was so poignant, one that will stick with you. I also found it amazing that people, especially women would take the journey.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Absolutely, Shirley, the sadness of leaving a loved one behind and, for the others, knowing it could be any one of you at any time. I also thought a lot about how dangerous it was for these women who were pregnant, in a world where childbirth was a major killer in any circumstances.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Sue wrote: "I was looking at some of his other books because I could have sworn there were more in the series. It looks like These Thousand Hills is also part of the series and was published befo..."

I will also see how it goes, but I can see myself wanting to read all of Guthrie's books at some point.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

SPOILER ALERT for Chapters 16 and 17

Sue wrote: "I also found it amazing that people, especially women would take the journey.

I so agree, Sue! And apparently Guthrie felt the same way. This is another passage I'm highlighting about that very same question:

Rebecca Evans to Judith Fairman:

A woman ain't cut like a man, not so adventuresome or rangin' and likin' more to stay put--but still we foller 'em around, and glad to do it, too.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Sara wrote: "Absolutely, Shirley, the sadness of leaving a loved one behind and, for the others, knowing it could be any one of you at any time. I also thought a lot about how dangerous it was for these women w..."

Yes indeed, Sara! Childbirth was always a dangerous proposition for women in those days, but how much more so on this long, unrelenting journey through all kinds of dangers -- and most of these women also had other children to tend to. It's just mind-boggling to me.

[Sue]

Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "SPOILER ALERT for Chapters 16 and 17

Sue wrote: "I also found it amazing that people, especially women would take the journey.

I so agree, Sue! And apparently Guthrie felt the same way. This is ..."

That is a great quote there is this great one near the end. I'm removing the part that has a spoiler :

"Raw or not, the women did their part and more. They traveled head to head with men, showing no more fear and asking no favor. ...... They had a kind of toughness in them that you might not think, seeing them in a parlor. So on a trail, women came to speak and men to listen almost as if to other men. It was lucky for the pride of men that few traveled with their wives to Oregon. They'd never quite believe again a woman was to look at but not to listen to. "

This struck me so hard. It's women like these who paved the way for men to think differently about women. They didn't demand respect, they commanded it by example.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

That is a great quote, Sue.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Sue wrote: "Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "SPOILER ALERT for Chapters 16 and 17

Sue wrote: "I also found it amazing that people, especially women would take the journey.

I so agree, Sue! And apparently Guth..."

Wow! What a great quote, Sue! I can't wait to read the context of it. How amazing, too, that Guthrie should acknowledge the importance of the women on the Oregon Trail. Now, I can't wait to read the rest of Guthrie's trilogy.

[Terry]

I was struck by how different that quote about the strength of women stands, in contrast to the way they were treated in The Big Sky, which frankly put me off.

My book lists 6 novels in the Big Sky Series:

The Big Sky
The Way West
Fair Land, Fair Land
These thousand Hills
Arfive
The Last Valley

These were not written/published in order, but this is the chronological story order which Houghton Mifflin Company lists them.

He also wrote the screenplay for the movie Shane but I don’t think it is part of the series.

So, after Lori and Sara read the Big Sky, we should decide exactly which book we are reading next.

[Shirley (stampartiste)]

Terry wrote: "I was struck by how different that quote about the strength of women stands, in contrast to the way they were treated in The Big Sky, which frankly put me off.

My book lists 6 novels in the Big Sk..."

Thank you for providing the book info, Terry! I didn't know there were six in the series. I will try to read The Big Sky within the next couple of months (to catch up with you, Lori and Sara), then I would love to see if there is any interest in reading the other ones. Guthrie has really impressed me with his knowledge of this time period in American history and the way he makes us feel like we're there, trudging along with the pioneers.

[Sue]

Terry wrote: "I was struck by how different that quote about the strength of women stands, in contrast to the way they were treated in The Big Sky, which frankly put me off.

My book lists 6 novels in the Big Sk..."

Yes Terry! I was put off by the treatment of women, even Teal Eye! I guess that is the way it was though. Thank you for that list. I could have sworn there were more. I vote for chronological story order.

[Sue]

Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "Terry wrote: "I was struck by how different that quote about the strength of women stands, in contrast to the way they were treated in The Big Sky, which frankly put me off.

My book lists 6 novels..."

I agree Shirley. It felt it was a nonfiction account of a real Wagon-train of people. Everything felt so authentic.

[Lori]

I am still thinking about Mack's wife, Amanda. I keep wondering why she was so compelled to push him away which led him to what he did. I wonder if it was more than just the prospect of getting pregnant. Could he have been abusive in the past? I may need to go back and look at those chapters again to see if there was any underlying reaction or words from Amanda that indicate anything.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Just my take, Lori. At this time, I think many women had been raised to have a fear of sex, or at least a feeling it was just a duty. For some reason, which I don't think would have been abuse, since he was concerned with her feelings, Amanda was afraid, which led to being cold. She did not want to have sex, and the real fear of pregnancy gave her a good excuse to turn him away. It was notable to me that she was feeling more receptive when he stopped demanding it. If you find anything interesting while you are researching, please share it.

[RJ - Slayer of Trolls]

I'm glad to see that so many of us are enjoying this book. I always seem to enjoy Pulitzer winners and this one was no exception.

If you do continue on to the Big Sky, you should know that it is a more gritty book in many ways than The Way West. The story follows Boone Caudhill who leaves home at a young age to earn his way in the world. He ends up falling in with a group of mountain men (this includes Dick Summers from The Way West) who were the early explorers of the West and he learns to live off the land. The middle of the book is about how Caudhill finds himself becoming more in tune with the untamed wilderness and less in step with the civilized world, and he is part of the group that discovers what would become the Oregon Trail which is the path traveled by the settlers in The Way West. Caudhill later struggles to fit in again when he returns to civilization. You should know that the mountain men use the "N-word" in a self-referential way which appears to be accurate for the time - I think I remember seeing this a couple times in The Way West, and it is used in the same way in a book I am reading right now, Sometimes a Great Notion by Ken Kesey about a small logging town in Oregon in the 1960s. I really enjoyed both The Way West and The Big Sky and I hope you do too if you do decide to continue with the series. I have a couple of the other books in the series ready to read over the next couple years and I'm trying to track down the others - I don't think they are all currently in print.

[Terry]

Thanks, RJ, for the synopsis of The Big Sky. It is a rougher book, for sure.

[Lori]

Sara wrote: "Just my take, Lori. At this time, I think many women had been raised to have a fear of sex, or at least a feeling it was just a duty. For some reason, which I don't think would have been abuse, sin..."

Thank you Sara for your take. I think your impression falls in line with what I reread. I saw how frustrated Mack was about Amanda's unwillingness and fear of sex and pregnancy. His frustration led to anger and this didn't help Amanda at all. She did really love him despite his loathsome behavior toward her. So then Mack took his anger out on Mercy and the Kaw Indian. Later Mack deals with shame and guilt.

[Terry]

One thing to keep in mind, too, is how many women died in childbirth prior to modern medicine. When I had my daughter, I would have been one of those dead women, because I ended up with an emergency C Section, not planned, with complications. So fear of pregnancy wasn’t that strange at the time. Add in the hardships of the migration. Plus, Mack apparently was not putting forward the best approach, either, as evidenced by the change at the end.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

I started The Big Sky today and I am loving it so far. Wallace Stegner (my idol) did the wonderful preface, which got me very excited to start reading. I am liking Boone so far, but of course he is young and it is early going. Waiting for Dick to show his face!

[Lori]

That’s exciting, Sara! My copy should be here any day from Thriftbooks.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Great, Lori. I'm so glad we will be catching up to everyone else in time for the read of the third book.

[Lori]

Me too!! I haven’t found the third book yet. My library has none of them.

[Sara, Old School Classics]

Not my favorite way to read, but I am reading these at archive.org - They have them all.

[Lori]

Oh, a resource I’m not familiar with. I’ll take a look at it. Thanks, Sara!

[Sara, Old School Classics]

No problem, Lori. I find a lot of things there that are unavailable anywhere else. Just a heads up--it will say "borrow for an hour" and when you click on that, it will often give you an option to borrow for 14 days. It seems it is newer books that actually have to be borrowed one hour at a time (pain in the caboose).