How Would You Characterize The Changing Relationship Between Literature & Nationality? (3/28/21)

[Marc]

With the networked, online, globalized culture we live in, the distinctions between nations and their cultural identities are shifting (if not outright blurring). How do you see this changing the dynamic between literature and nationality? Can there be such a thing as an "American" or "British" novel anymore? Do larger/more dominant cultures infringe or distort the cultures of smaller/less dominant cultures (e.g., does allowing American books into British prizes like the Booker alter or affect British literature/writing?)? Has the significance of nationality changed? What positive/negative aspects do you see resulting from all this?

Feel free to answer any one aspect of this as I realize it is a huge question or set of questions. It was inspired by a very long article in the Electronic Book Review: On the Globalization of Literature: Haruki Murakami, Tim O'Brien, and Raymond Carver
(Do not feel obligated to read this article. I'm only posting it in case any one else is interest.)

[Lark]

I do believe there is a kind of novel that is written with an international literary audience in mind. Orhan Pamuk's novels come to mind first for me in that category, but it's more apparent maybe that an author is explicitly striving to speak to an international community in those cases where authors have a choice, inherited through colonization, whether to write their novels in an original language or in the language of the colonizers.

Which leads me to think about the novel Wizard of the Crow by Ngũgĩ wa Thiong'o, written first in Kikiyu and then translated by the author.

And I'm curious about Indian and Pakistani literature not written originally in English. I recently read Cat in the Agraharam and Other Stories by Dilip Kumar, courtesy of Northwestern University Press. Kumar is writing about a polyglot culture in a polyglot way--his native language is Gujarathi, and he writes in Tamil. I imagine he could write in English too if he wanted to but he just isn't interested--he has other people he wants to reach, with languages that aren't English. His stories were delightful but I was never far from remembering that English was a veil over what Kumar had written, obscuring as much as it revealed.

[Marc]

lark wrote: "I do believe there is a kind of novel that is written with an international literary audience in mind. Orhan Pamuk's novels come to mind first for me in that category, but it's more apparent maybe ..."

The article points to Murakami as another such writer, Lark, who quite intentionally writes with an international audience in mind. I imagine, if one is writing in English originally, than that probably already eliminates a number of national "differences" that may exist, but these two examples are writers translated, for the most part as I understand it, into English; thus, they do seem to be writing for/to an international audience.

I don't really know enough about either writer to know how their writing/audience started out, or whether this has any impact on nationality. Certainly, the growing number of translations, awards, notoriety, etc. would only encourage an ambitious writer to make a wider mark.

But do we still think of identifying a writer by their nationality as telling us anything of much significance? Or, is there enough commonality among a nation's writing to meaningfully label it by nationality (e.g., Is there still something distinctly Irish or Nigerian about Irish or Nigerian literature?)?

[LindaJ^]

I think there are topics that are distinctly national, such as "The Troubles" in Ireland, Brexit in the UK, and healthcare insurance liked to employment in the US, and others. I don't think an author has to be of the nationality to write about those issues but would have to have lived in that nation for an extended period of time to appreciate their nuances. I believe that nations have their own personalities and that is also so for the places within them.

[Lark]

I imagine everything that doesn’t get translated into English is for a domestic audience and that these literatures are running parallel to the phenomenon of ‘international literature’ and are just not accessible to us until someone makes the investment to translate. And probably the more a work speaks to the region where it originated the less likely it is to be translated.

[Marc]

Translation always seems like a labor of love (unless it's for already recognized literature because it's a best-seller or won a national prize)... Lark, you comments are making me realize just how complicated these dynamics are (how prevalent literature and/or your native language is in a global context; the double hurdle literature in translation faces of having to find both a translator and a publisher for any given book, etc.). I don't even know what percentage of book sales fiction and/or literature makes up in the U.S., much less any other country...

Linda wrote: "I believe nations have their own personalities... "
Do you see these personalities as being any more or less distinct than they once were (let's say, 50 years ago)? Great point about the historical and economic events/stories as dominant issues within countries and how those translate to literature/books.

[Whitney]

From my understanding, yes to what Lark was saying. Getting a translation done for writers who aren't well know outside their own country is largely a labor of love. I know some writers have championed books by some of their favorites, and in some cases done the translations themselves. For example, Ken Liu translating works of Chinese science fiction (which sparked a bit of a boom with the popularity of Three Body Problem). I recently supported a kickstarter spearheaded by Silvia Moreno-Garcia to publish a translated copy of The Route of Ice and Salt. Small presses like Wakefield translate works they consider deserving of a wider audience. I see it as a good sign that even Amazon has gotten into the foreign publishing act with their Amazon Crossing publications.

The universality versus regionalism is an interesting question. I've read a lot of translated books (and watched subtitled films) that have been readily accessible (with maybe some help from wikipedia), and some that have left me scratching my head. I think a good translator can help smooth those differences resulting from deep disparities in national character, and not just superficial things like regional foods or dress.

Oddly, I've always found that frequent head scratchers for me are books or films from the Balkans or Eastern Europe. More so than works from Asia or Africa, which I would think would be more alien to my day to day experience.

[LindaJ^]

Marc,
I think the personalities are still distinct but perhaps harder to see by the typical tourist visiting a country/city that is massively popular. The burden is on the visitor to find it - to get, as Rick Steves says but doesn't always manage on his tours, "off the beaten path" - and to be receptive. I don't think one can appreciate the differences if one does not get off the ship, out of the vehicle and walk or bike, visit out-of-the-way neighborhoods, eat and drink in local bars, go to the laundromat. Don't value judge through one's own life style.

I sometimes find translated literature challenging when it is from an area of the world I have not visited, such as China or Korea. I think common experiences help make translated literature easier to grasp. I often find I engage much more quickly in reading translated literature from a county I've visited than from one I have not. And consider the English language. My law firm had offices in Australia and the UK. There were times when I had no idea what my partners were saying, even though they were purportedly speaking English. As with movies, I think more books written in English are translated in the languages of other countries than the works of other countries being translated to English. I say thank goodness for the many small presses that do publish translations.

[Lark]

The blog “The Untranslated” takes this conversation to a whole new level, I recommend it:

https://theuntranslated.wordpress.com...

[Whitney]

lark wrote: "The blog “The Untranslated” takes this conversation to a whole new level, I recommend it:

https://theuntranslated.wordpress.com..."

Excellent link, Lark, thanks. Also frustrating, reading about the books I can't read. Also humbling, reminding me how pathetic it is I can only read in one language.

[Vesna]

"How do you see this changing the dynamic between literature and nationality?"

As an old-time immigrant (30 years), all I can say is that things are a bit more complicated. I learned more about the culture of my origin as an émigré, the years of separation giving me a better perspective. But assimilated enough to feel the culture of my new country as my own too, even finding myself more comfortable reading the books written in my native language in English translations (of course, if it's a good translation), the language in which I now talk and think.

[Emmeline]

Vesna wrote: ""How do you see this changing the dynamic between literature and nationality?"

As an old-time immigrant (30 years), all I can say is that things are a bit more complicated. I learned more about th..."

Vesna, how interesting! I can't imagine choosing to read books in my own language in translation, but I think my time as an immigrant (around 15 years) has coincided thankfully with growing availability of international shipping, and so I have been less immersed in the new languages in terms of reading.

More generally, I would say there are still national differences. I noticed recently that I am far more likely to read a British or Canadian or Irish book, than an American book and that I still find America something of a puzzling culture to engage with (both in real life and in books). Of course there are many wonderful American books that I have enjoyed, but so often the talking points feel subtly different, and even different from in Canadian books.

In terms of foreign translations, I think there are many invisible forces (not all of them love) that go into the choice of books to translate. I am somewhat involved in the literary community in Barcelona, and am often surprised by the books that are translated (the new ones, the older classics are more predictable). I sense there is often a marketing element (someone has a smart agent who knows how to place a certain author or their work, or simply, someone has an agent!) and often a case of personal contacts or friendships. Much like publishing in general I expect! But with an extra filter because these are all books that already exist in the original language, but the choice to translate is sometimes surprising.

[Vesna]

Emily wrote: "Vesna, how interesting! I can't imagine choosing to read books in my own language in translation, but I think my time as an immigrant (around 15 years) has coincided thankfully with growing availability of international shipping, and so I have been less immersed in the new languages in terms of reading.

More generally, I would say there are still national differences..."

Emily, it's been such a pleasure reading your comment. There are indeed national differences... and regional too. In some ways I experienced a greater cultural shock when I moved from upstate New York to Texas (and now back to the Northeast) than when I moved to the US. I think every immigrant has a unique story. In my case, it helped to get quickly "assimilated" because it was attending college that brought me here, so I never connected with the ethnic community, rather socializing with my friends from college as everyone else. In your case, I assume you now speak/read in both Spanish and Catalan which must be fascinating...

And you are very much right about reading in the native language vs. translations. I had a very strong nostalgia to read the literature, especially poetry, from my home country for many years but it was impossible to find it. Increased international shipping, as you mention, makes a huge difference now but, after so many years, I suspect my mind shifted to the English language pattern.

I think we are fortunate to live in the age when translators and living authors often communicate during the translating process, but you are right - there are lots of factors that go into making the selections for what is translated, not all entirely based on their literary merit (compared to other books that never get a chance to get translated). This cultural globalization, hinted in the question for this week, is quite interesting, bringing out different experiences...

[Lark]

I suspect there are semantic structures in individual languages that impart meanings in ways we have only vague ideas about, but that are powerful to native speakers. Not the semantic sense of the individual words but the way the words flow in a given sentence, and the inherent ways a given language imparts meaning through its particular grammar and sound.

One thing that leads me to think there is something fundamentally deeper in what goes on with language, beyond translating the words, is that--I have no idea why this is true--I find it much easier to read books originally written in English and then translated into one of the languages I can read, vs. reading a native-language book in those same languages.

[Robert]

lark wrote: "I suspect there are semantic structures in individual languages that impart meanings in ways we have only vague ideas about, but that are powerful to native speakers. Not the semantic sense of the ..."

Strangely enough the same with me, bar some exceptions. Maybe if we're exposed to certain language we know their cadences so when they are translated we sort of understand ( In my case it would be French and Italian - I can read Maltese and translations of Maltese novels into English)

[Emmeline]

lark wrote: "I suspect there are semantic structures in individual languages that impart meanings in ways we have only vague ideas about, but that are powerful to native speakers. Not the semantic sense of the ..."

I agree. I was just talking about this this morning, because I'm reading I Live in the Slums: Stories (which I know you've read, Lark) and it's the second Chinese book I've read this year that I've wondered if there was something wrong with the translation because there's a sort of unevenness to the sentences. I can't decide if there is something wrong with the translation, if the weird pacing is a deliberate choice by (both) authors, a deliberate choice by (both) translators to reproduce a Chinese rhythm of writing, or a case of the translator being influenced by the source language, which of course can happen easily.

I know there are also different schools of thought on translation: should the end result sound like it was written in English or is the foreignness part of the charm? I think most people instinctively prefer translations not to sound like translations, but I can see the sense of the other argument...

[Vesna]

lark wrote: "I suspect there are semantic structures in individual languages that impart meanings in ways we have only vague ideas about, but that are powerful to native speakers. Not the semantic sense of the individual words but the way the words flow in a given sentence, and the inherent ways a given language imparts meaning through its particular grammar and sound."

Spot on, lark! That's exactly my sense.

[Lark]

I'm so glad I tried to express this extremely ephemeral thing and that I have company.

[Marc]

I love the direction this discussion has taken. (You’ve all had me delaying my start to the work morning by reading up on language differences such as this short general piece on How Can Languages Differ?)

Poetry seems like it would pose the biggest challenge to translation or even just cross-cultural interpretation given its potential reliance on pronunciation, rhyme, multiple word meanings/usage, etc.

I always wonder what it would be like to hear a comedian performing in a language other than English impersonating a native English speaker trying to speak the comedian’s language (e.g., let’s say, the reverse of an American comedian doing an impersonation of an Asian speaking broken English... so maybe a Korean comedian impersonating an American speaking broken Korean).

[Nadine in California]

Vesna wrote: "lark wrote: "I suspect there are semantic structures in individual languages that impart meanings in ways we have only vague ideas about, but that are powerful to native speakers. Not the semantic ..."

Yes! And why learning a second language is so essential to understanding the complexities of communication and culture, and seeing one's native language and culture with defamiliarized eyes. I wish I'd been capable of realizing that when I was learning French in school. All I remember from that time is scattered words and hating the subjunctive. Now I'm teaching myself Spanish with an eagerness I wish I had then.

[Nadine in California]

Marc wrote: "...so maybe a Korean comedian impersonating an American speaking broken Korean)...."

Now I have a new goal for learning Spanish! I said I was teaching myself Spanish, but it's not completely accurate. I'm a volunteer English tutor for a Spanish-speaking person (part of a free public library program) so I teach myself Spanish based on what she's learning in English. The result is that we constantly crack each other up with our language mistakes. We're on the fence over which language is harder - English has such weird spellings, but Spanish has way too many tenses and verb endings. Really, who made that a thing???

(PS: Her 8 year old son is learning Chinese and we both agree that language takes the cake ;)

[Lark]

Marc wrote: "I always wonder what it would be like to hear a comedian performing in a language other than English impersonating a native English speaker trying to speak the comedian’s language ..."

Marc you reminded me of a time I went to a comedy show in Thurso, Scotland, and I didn't understand a word of it, seriously. I sat there in a crowd of people laughing until they were crying--this comedian was apparently really good--and when it was over I asked a woman sitting next to me "what was that all about?" and she said "he was making fun of other people's accents."

[Luke]

I grew up as a white kid in areas of the United States whose communities were anywhere between 50% to 80% Asian. Nationality, especially the idea of being 'American', has always been very distant to the ways in which I observe and interpret the world, as the concepts only seemed to present themselves when I was hearing about hate crimes or incidents of bigotry that were occurring in other parts of the country. This may be why I've been so open to reading things in translation from the beginning of my more serious literary pursuits. I'd have to be fluent in 120+ languages to read everything in my library in its original language.

[Whitney]

lark wrote: "and when it was over I asked a woman sitting next to me "what was that all about?" and she said "he was making fun of other people's accents."

That is hilarious!

I was watching a movie set in Taiwan in the late 40's. There was a seen where gangsters from Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Shanghai were sitting around a table talking. All the humor revolved around the different dialects of the resulting misunderstandings and confusion. Everyone in the audience who spoke Chinese was laughing uproariously, while us English-only speakers missed everything, as it wasn't something subtitles could convey.

[Robert]

That reminds of something I read a couple of days ago.

On the Netflix show, the unbreakable jimmy scmidt there’s a Vietnamese called Dong but in reality the actor is Korean and a lot of Vietnamese/Americans were angry has the actors Vietnamese accent has Korean inflections - something most of us would bypass

[Whitney]

Robert wrote: "That reminds of something I read a couple of days ago.

On the Netflix show, the unbreakable jimmy scmidt there’s a Vietnamese called Dong but in reality the actor is Korean and a lot of Vietnames..."

That was the exact episode I stopped watching Kimmy Schmidt. Not only did they do the Hollywood thing where all East and Southeast Asians are considered interchangeable, but they did the "this Asian name is funny because it sounds like it refers to genitals!" schtick, which was already offensive and tiresome back when it was done in the 80's in "16 Candles".

[Marc]

Nadine wrote: "The result is that we constantly crack each other up with our language mistakes. "
That sounds like a joy, Nadine. In my late teens/early 20s, I bussed tables with a number of immigrants from Costa Rica. They taught me curse words in Spanish and I knew enough Spanish to ask them to teach me more (e.g., "cómo se dice 'asswipe,' en espanol?").

Lark, I have a friend I met here on GR who is from Glasgow and he's sent me some humor clips where the Glaswegian accent was so heavy, I didn't even think they were speaking in English! Needless, to say, I didn't know if it was funny, because I couldn't understand a thing.

So, I guess nationality and language still play a particularly big role when it comes to humor. Perhaps more so than ever given changing roles/expectations and sensitivities.

(I often find it really enjoyable to try to communicate when you don't share the same language/understanding---such as, with young children, non-English speakers, animals, etc. You have to sort of expose your own ignorance in a way that creates an immediate intimacy.)

[Lark]

and now I'm remembering that time I went to a Marx Brothers movie in Paris and I was the only one laughing...the subtitles were just not up to the task...my French is terrible so it was delightful to be in a place of respite where I was the only one who knew what was going on for a change.

[Janet]

Marc wrote: "I always wonder what it would be like to hear a comedian performing in a language other than English impersonating a native English speaker trying to speak the comedian’s language

Don’t want to go too off topic here as it’s a book forum , but if you get a chance to watch any stand up done by Gad Elmaleh, he’s very funny about cultural and linguistic misunderstandings. He’s Franco-Moroccan and he originally did stand up in French but now does his schtick in English. Lots of his specials show up on Netflix, as well as a very funny miniseries called “Huge in France” where he comes to the US to be with his estranged American wife and son, and is continually amazed that Americans don’t know who he is, because he’s a super star in France ( which is, in fact, very true). So he does manage to get his digs in with Americans ( or at least denizens of Hollywood) and it’s very funny. ( not sure why my comment is ital)

[Nadine in California]

Janet wrote: "Marc wrote: "I always wonder what it would be like to hear a comedian performing in a language other than English impersonating a native English speaker trying to speak the comedian’s language ..."

Thanks for the tip! Not a book, but still counts as a screenplay ;)

[Marc]

Janet, thanks for the rec! Just added a couple of his specials to my watch list on Netflix. (The stop italics tag -- "" -- is probably missing from your comment or at the very end. No need to correct.)