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The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy, 1943-1944 (World War II Liberation Trilogy, #2)
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THE SECOND WORLD WAR > WE ARE OPEN - WEEK ELEVEN - Part Three - 8. Perdition - Jerryland and 9. The Murder Space -This World and the Next World at Strife - pages 385-412 - No Spoilers

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message 1: by Jerome, Assisting Moderator - Upcoming Books and Releases (new) - added it

Jerome | 4349 comments Mod
Hello, Everyone,

For the week of March 23rd - March 29th, we are reading Chapter 10 - A Fairyland of Silver and Gold - The Weight of Metal - Dragonflies in the Sun - pages 445-473 of the book-The Day of Battle: The War in Sicily and Italy 1943-1944 by Rick Atkinson.

The eleventh week's reading assignment is:

Week Eleven- March 23rd- March 29th, 2015
Chapter Ten: A Fairyland of Silver and Gold - The Weight of Metal - Dragonflies in the Sun - pages 445-473

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on January 12th

We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, local bookstore or on your Kindle.

This weekly thread will be opened up on March 23rd

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Bentley will be leading this discussion and back-up will be Assisting Moderators Bryan, Kathy, Jerome and Jill.

Welcome,

~Jerome

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

The Day of Battle The War in Sicily and Italy, 1943-1944 (World War II Liberation Trilogy, #2) by Rick Atkinson by Rick Atkinson Rick Atkinson

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS - ON EACH WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREAD - WE ONLY DISCUSS THE PAGES ASSIGNED OR THE PAGES WHICH WERE COVERED IN PREVIOUS WEEKS. IF YOU GO AHEAD OR WANT TO ENGAGE IN MORE EXPANSIVE DISCUSSION - POST THOSE COMMENTS IN ONE OF THE SPOILER THREADS. THESE CHAPTERS HAVE A LOT OF INFORMATION SO WHEN IN DOUBT CHECK WITH THE CHAPTER OVERVIEW AND SUMMARY TO RECALL WHETHER YOUR COMMENTS ARE ASSIGNMENT SPECIFIC. EXAMPLES OF SPOILER THREADS ARE THE GLOSSARY, THE BIBLIOGRAPHY, THE INTRODUCTION AND THE BOOK AS A WHOLE THREADS.

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Introduction thread:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Table of Contents and Syllabus:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary:

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

Glossary - Part One- https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary - Part Two - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Glossary - Part Three - https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Bibliography:

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations. No self promotion, please.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts - SPOILER THREAD

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

The Day of Battle The War in Sicily and Italy, 1943-1944 (World War II Liberation Trilogy, #2) by Rick Atkinson by Rick Atkinson Rick Atkinson

Directions on how to participate in book discussions and how to follow the t's and c's - look at directives given for the discussion Landslide - What Do I Do Next?

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...


message 2: by Jerome, Assisting Moderator - Upcoming Books and Releases (new) - added it

Jerome | 4349 comments Mod
All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.


message 3: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
This is the syllabus - there seems to be something awry with the way these were set up:

Week Eleven - March 23rd - March 29th
Part Three - 8. Perdition - Jerryland and 9. The Murder Space -This World and the Next World at Strife - pages 385-412


Week Twelve - March 30th - April 5th
Part Three - 9. The Murder Space - The Bitchhead and "Man Is Distinguished from the Beasts" - pages 412-441

Week Thirteen - April 6th - April 12th
Part Four - 10 Four Horsemen - A Fairyland of Silver and Gold and The Weight of Metal - pages 445 - 473

Week Fourteen - April 13th - April 19th
Part Four - 10. Four Horsemen - Dragonflies in the Sun and 11. A Kettle of Grief - Dead Country and "Put the Fear of God into Them" and "You Are All Brave. You Are All Gentlemen" - pages 473-509

Week Fifteen - April 20th - April 26th
Part Four - 11. A Kettle of Grief - "On the Eve of Great Things" and 12. The Great Prize - Shaking Stars from the Heavens - pages 509-536

Week Sixteen - April 27th - May 3rd
Part Four - 12. The Great Prize - A Fifth Army Show - pages 536-555

Week Seventeen - May 4th - May 10th
Part Four - 12. The Great Prize - The Cuckoo's Song and Expulsion of the Barbarians - pages 555-576

Week Eighteen - May 11th - May 17th
Epilogue - pages 577-588

Week Nineteen - May 18th - 24th
Book as a Whole and Final Thoughts


message 4: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Mar 23, 2015 09:33AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
The assignment that was posted in message one is all wrong - this is this week's assignment

(If I could change it without disrupting the thread I would - I have changed the thread header however)

Week Eleven - March 23rd - March 29th
Part Three - 8. Perdition - Jerryland and 9. The Murder Space -This World and the Next World at Strife - pages 385-412


message 5: by Bryan (new) - added it

Bryan Craig Boy, the Rangers had it tough. I think it just shows you how hard the Italian campaign was.


message 6: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
The Italian campaign was a slog


message 7: by Bryan (new) - added it

Bryan Craig "Slog" is right. Today, you get a sense of inevitability because we know the end, but really, these guys did not know and it was inch by inch.


message 8: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
I know - you had to feel their pain even so many years later.


message 9: by Bryan (new) - added it

Bryan Craig I remember in the first book that the author said that the Americans did not hate the enemy enough in North Africa.

Now, as he talks about the life in Italy, I think we see that changing.

An Army at Dawn The War in North Africa, 1942-1943 (World War II Liberation Trilogy, #1) by Rick Atkinson by Rick Atkinson Rick Atkinson


message 10: by Skeetor (new)

Skeetor | 311 comments It's horrible that they weren't able to make the landing with a large enough force to continue the surprise attack into higher land. I think it would've been a lot better for both sides in the end.


message 11: by Bryan (new) - added it

Bryan Craig It makes a lot of sense, Skeetor. Geography certainly plays another role in this. I am not sure we fully understood fighting in these mountains and valleys.


Vincent (vpbrancato) | 1245 comments There are heroes everywhere - even Audie Murphy appears.

The Germans are tough - how would we have done without our superior air power etc.?


message 13: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Aug 23, 2015 10:37AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
An astute comment Bryan and I think that is true but that always has its downside.

Vincent - we would have had major difficulties - I think the German psyche at that time helped us too. I think the Nazis hate and distain for the Jews and other minorities dissipated their own spirit and psyche in a way and united others fighting them with more certainty that they should prevail and that they were on the side of honor, decency and justice.

The Germans at the time (the Nazis) were intelligent, strong, aggressive, relentless, technologically advanced but I think they lacked the human dimension of the heart, empathy and a general concern and love for humanity and other human beings no matter how different you perceive them. And oddly enough - I think that made the difference on both sides - the Brits, the French (though they suffered huge losses), the Americans and certainly the Russians (they lost so many) knew exactly what was at stake and never forgot that one thing they were fighting for - survival and their freedom as well as human decency.

Very easily the Germans could have prevailed.

Note: I want to emphasize that I am speaking about the Nazis and their actions and not the German people


Vincent (vpbrancato) | 1245 comments I agree that the Nazis could have prevailed - but not so obvious after we entered the war.

Then the question was the willingness of the Americans to fight. But we were fortress and factory America.

When we get to the point that we entered the war - by virtue of the Japanese for the date and method - the "Nazis" had already - by the invasion of Russia - started their overreaching. What Bentley says about the Russians knowing exactly what was at stake is so true. The Brits also knew so well what was at stake - they had huddled together in bomb shelters.

I wonder if and how FDR would have taken us into the war if the Japanese had not attacked Pearl Harbor but at that point the yet to be discovered Powell doctrine (accumulate overwhelming advantage) was a result - but I think he would have found a way but without Pearl Harbor the American determination might have been less.

I also realize you are talking about the Nazis not the Germans but virtually all the Nazis were Germans.

Just letting my thought direct my fingers.


message 15: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited Aug 23, 2015 04:59PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
My English friends and elder members of their families remember this as if it were yesterday - it was that horrific - it decimated London for starters. In 1940, London was bombed for 57 consecutive nights.

I looked up the stat to be accurate - "More than one million London houses were destroyed or damaged, and more than 40,000 civilians were killed, almost half of them in London"

And the Nazis did the same thing to 16 British cities. The Russians were worse off - during WW-2 around 30 million Russians were killed in 4 years between the summer of 1941 and spring 1945 by the Nazi regime.

I wonder about FDR too although he was the saving grace for Britain.

I understand it is difficult but you try to make the distinction - when you talk about Muslims - you have the same problem because all of the terrorists in 9/11 were also Muslims. But Muslims are not all terrorists. It is difficult and that is why I wanted to restate that point.

I understand what you mean.


Vincent (vpbrancato) | 1245 comments yes - not all the Nazis are Germans - not all the Germans are Nazis

How guiltless are we for the American Indian treatment? How guiltless were the then Americans when it was going on? Our famous President Jackson was elected by the American people (who could vote).

The current Japanese leaders go to the shrines to their WWII generals who were war criminals.

It is so hard to just say that a few forced the whole to go along (with enthusiasm) -

Yes say the Nazis and timeless compartmentalize the guilt - but at the time there were few John Rabes and too many Rudolfs.

The Good Man of Nanking The Diaries of John Rabe by John Rabe John Rabe John Rabe

Hanns and Rudolf The True Story of the German Jew Who Tracked Down and Caught the Kommandant of Auschwitz by Thomas Harding Thomas Harding Thomas Harding


message 17: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bentley | 44207 comments Mod
Yes, I moderated the offering by Thomas Harding and that was a very powerful book.

Thomas Harding Thomas Harding


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